** The MISUNDERSTOOD Religon **

Originally posted by Sam Z

He helped prophet a lot but he go to hell because he was not muslim, despite that he was close to prophet all the time he still did not believed him.

So t doesn't matter how nice Abu Talib is he went to hell because he didn't accept Islam?

Originally posted by Sam Z

Mohammad was forced to leave Mecca and then he was chased to Medina where people accepted Islam, they had to fight back and they won, Meccans then accepted Islam too.

So ummm you dont think they chucked him out because he was trying to destroy their way of life? You do know the pagans did not have a problem with Mohammed worshipping one god, they got angry when he said that everybody had to worship one god. You mean to say you cant see why he was forced to leave?

Originally posted by Sam Z

What year was it and what exactly they did?

Not sure exactly what the date was, but muslim invaders went into buddhist and hindu temples and smashed the idols.

Originally posted by Sam Z

Why should Qur'an criticize him for trying to save people from going to hell?

So it doesnt bother you that the Idols did not belong to Abraham, therefore he did not have the right to smash the idols.

One thing people should perhaps try and look from the point of view of people who do not agree with Islam...

How come there are always misconceptions about Islam and violence? Why are there no misconceptions regarding Hindusim and violence, or Taoism and violence, or Buddhism and violence?

There is a certain pattern that follows where Abrahamic religions always claim ''missunderstanding'' when it comes to violence.

I think that is the crucial thing which does not convince me that Islam is only about peace.

Originally posted by Alfheim
So t doesn't matter how nice Abu Talib is he went to hell because he didn't accept Islam?

Originally posted by Alfheim

So ummm you dont think they chucked him out because he was trying to destroy their way of life? You do know the pagans did not have a problem with Mohammed worshipping one god, they got angry when he said that everybody had to worship one god. You mean to say you cant see why he was forced to leave?

Originally posted by Alfheim

Not sure exactly what the date was, but muslim invaders went into buddhist and hindu temples and smashed the idols.

Originally posted by Alfheim

So it doesnt bother you that the Idols did not belong to Abraham, therefore he did not have the right to smash the idols.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
One thing people should perhaps try and look from the point of view of people who do not agree with Islam...

How come there are always misconceptions about Islam and violence? Why are there no misconceptions regarding Hindusim and violence, or Taoism and violence, or Buddhism and violence?

There is a certain pattern that follows where Abrahamic religions always claim ''missunderstanding'' when it comes to violence.

I think that is the crucial thing which does not convince me that Islam is only about peace.

There is misconceptions because that is stereotype that was made by the media, including US media. What is important is what written in Qur'an and there is no violance unless you are forced to protect yourself.

Originally posted by Sam Z
And you know for sure that he was "nice", yes he helped prophet because they were relatives, but he never believed him.

I can only go by what I read and Abu Talib supported the prophet eventhough he did not agree with him I think thats very "nice" to me, despite that he still went to Hell.

Originally posted by Sam Z
He actually wasn't trying to destroy their way of life, he wasn't attacking them or anything like that. He was telling people about Islam and they didn't like it and they even wanted to kill him for not believing in Idols. He had to go to Medina.
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Yeah he was, he said there is ONLY ONE God but Allah and he would not leave them alone. Why do they have to belive in one God? I told you they did not have a problem with Mohammed worshipping one god, he was saying that he worshipped one god AND they had to as well. The pagan arabs even said that to Mohammed, you worship your god and we will worship ours, and your wondering why they kicked him out of Mecca?

Originally posted by Sam Z
Date is important, at least was it before or after prophet died?
[/B]

After the prophet died.

Originally posted by Sam Z
You are saying that it is bad because it was their property and he broke the law? [/B]

Of course!

Originally posted by finti
Vikings came from a warrior cult where violence was part of their religion. So they didnt do anything wrong from their point of view, bloodshed was part of their beliefs.

By the way im a Heathen that means that I follow the traditions and beliefs of the Vikings. No intelligent Heathen is going to tell you that the Vikings were not violent, but obvoulsy we will say that they were not all like that. The difference is that the bad Vikings did not make excuses they liked raping and pillaging and so did their God.

However if you read certain parts of the poetic Eddas such as Havamal it gives good moral advice without the psychlogical abuse of going to hell.

http://www.ragweedforge.com/havamal.html

Also the God Thor clearly stated that fighting for the sake of it is immoral.

Unfortunately Odin is usually depicted as being ruthless; but that is because most of his folllowers were, but Havamal contradicts this. Obvoulsy not all followers of Odin were bad.

i think ijust misunderstood wat u meant by right hand possessed, srry, i thought umeant something else

Originally posted by Alfheim
I can only go by what I read and Abu Talib supported the prophet eventhough he did not agree with him I think thats very "nice" to me, despite that he still went to Hell.

Originally posted by Alfheim

Yeah he was, he said there is ONLY ONE God but Allah and he would not leave them alone. Why do they have to belive in one God? I told you they did not have a problem with Mohammed worshipping one god, he was saying that he worshipped one god AND they had to as well. The pagan arabs even said that to Mohammed, you worship your god and we will worship ours, and your wondering why they kicked him out of Mecca?

Originally posted by Alfheim

After the prophet died.

Originally posted by Alfheim

Of course!

Originally posted by Sam Z
He supported him because of their relationship, sorry but there are many things that are concidered to be sins and not. You can't judge that he was nice and say that his only sin was not being a muslim, but this obviously was his greatest.

So basically he went to Hell because he was not muslim. Thank you for that

Originally posted by Sam Z
Mohammed was telling them about Islam and telling them that they must believe in Allah, yes. But he was not attacking them or using force. He preached, you believe it is a good reason to kill man?
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If you tell someone thats its ok if you worship one God, but you ask that person to leave you alone but that person keeps on, its only natural if you get angry. Like I said he was trying to wipe out their way of life, thats why when he entered Mecca he went into the Kabah and destroyed the idols.

They are pagans, idolatry is part of their life. What right did he have to destroy those idols? Further more what do you think he would have done if someone tryed to physically stop him from breaking the idols.

Originally posted by Sam Z
And they were running all over India destroying everything on their way? If so, then it's the problem of those people, not of the religion.
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Oh I see so your saying its ok to smash idols then?

Originally posted by Sam Z
So Islam is violant because Qur'an was supposed to critisize him for trying to prove that they worship stones but didn't? [/B]

Er Sam. Abraham went into a temple and destroyed the idols. The idols do not belong to him. Destroying property that does not belong to you is violent, then people get pissed off at the pagans for chucking him in the fire pit.

Imagine if I went to the Kabah and tryed to wreck it.

Alfheim, have you read anything by Ali Sina?

Maybe cant remember. I have read alot of stuff about Islam I cant remember all the authors and I dont have the books anymore.

Im definitely not a scholar though.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Maybe cant remember. I have read alot of stuff about Islam I cant remember all the authors and I dont have the books anymore.

Im definitely not a scholar though.

Ali Sina was also a Muslim. He renounced Islam and has dedicated himself in educating people about dangers Islam. I'll PM you the link to his site.

I think you'll find it interesting.

He has few fatwas proclaimed against him.

Originally posted by Alfheim
So basically he went to Hell because he was not muslim. Thank you for that

Originally posted by Alfheim

If you tell someone thats its ok if you worship one God, but you ask that person to leave you alone but that person keeps on, its only natural if you get angry. Like I said he was trying to wipe out their way of life, thats why when he entered Mecca he went into the Kabah and destroyed the idols.

They are pagans, idolatry is part of their life. What right did he have to destroy those idols? Further more what do you think he would have done if someone tryed to physically stop him from breaking the idols.

Originally posted by Alfheim

Oh I see so your saying its ok to smash idols then?

Originally posted by Alfheim

Er Sam. Abraham went into a temple and destroyed the idols. The idols do not belong to him. Destroying property that does not belong to you is violent, then people get pissed off at the pagans for chucking him in the fire pit.

Imagine if I went to the Kabah and tryed to wreck it.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Ali Sina was also a Muslim. He renounced Islam and has dedicated himself in educating people about dangers Islam. I'll PM you the link to his site.

I think you'll find it interesting.

He has few fatwas proclaimed against him.

Can you post this link here? I'm curious...

Originally posted by Sam Z
Basically yes. And what surprises you so much? It is typical for almost any religion, you believe that christians think I'll go to heaven even though I don't believe in what they believe? Nope.

What do you mean by live them alone? He wasn't chasing anybody or getting in their houses at night, he was just telling them about Islam, like lectures and telling that they must believe in Allah or they'd go to hell. They didn't liked it and wanted to kill him. You think it is a good reason for killing?

No, I'm saying that if muslim does something Qur'an doesn't tell him to do it is not fault of religion but fault of the man that did it. Take world trade center for example. You are going to blame Islam for what those people did?

Ok, so it is a crime according to constitution🙂
But look at this from another point of view, he did two things. He destroyed someone's property and also tried to save people souls. Why should Qur'an critisize him for doing something bad if he also did very good thing.
And Al, I want to ask you again if ANYTHING in Qur'an seem violant to you?

Listen I cant be bothered anymore if you cant read between the lines.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Can you post this link here? I'm curious...

www.faithfreedom.org

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Ali Sina was also a Muslim. He renounced Islam and has dedicated himself in educating people about dangers Islam. I'll PM you the link to his site.

I think you'll find it interesting.

He has few fatwas proclaimed against him.

There is a Danger to EVERY RELIGION or beleif system.

Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Athiesm, and Agnosticism can all be abused and used in a negative way.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Listen I cant be bothered anymore if you cant read between the lines.

Wait a sec, you said that Islam seems violant to you, so i asked what in Qur'an seems so to you. Because "not criticizing something" and "preching" does not mean that religion is violant.

islam IS dangerous, not just in implication but in simple ideaology and instrucion too. visit faithfreedom.org to find out only SOME of the many crappy bull things in the quran. i was born and raised as a devout and pretty much fundamentalist muslim in pakistan and was one until age11. and still live in a very fundamentalist society. trust me, islam is BULLSHIT.

{nice sig btw. both sephiroth and frank yeager}