Originally posted by JOE NUNEZ
I heard that even if your a sinner, if you repent before you die you go to heaven.
It all depends on intent in my faith. If your intent is to do it upon death, so that you are not confined to living according to the law, then we would believe that you would not be forgiven necessarily. But then, we also believe that judgement is God's alone, so we wouldn't state an absolute either way on the subject, merely a probability based on what we are taught. We believe you will be placed in a state that your behavior, the law (not necessarily commands and such, although they are a part of it, just general principles) you lived by, will fit in.
Catholics though, they would say you could confess on your deathbed and get in. I am unsure about other Christian religions.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Either you cannot count from 1 to 15 or you deliberately skipped number "14." It goes a little something like this:14. The lie of evolution. The fact that evolution is taught as if it were a fact all across the world is evidence of man's unwillingness to learn the Truth. Evolution has no scientific basis, it cannot be tested or studied. Evolution is NOT science, but a mere theory of atheist conjectures. If the Bible is not true, then why is mankind desperately trying to hide his ignorance concerning creation. There is NO answer which makes sense except God. [B]Please read "Is There a God?"
Evolution is proof of one thing, that man is afraid of the Truth.The Is There a God part is what you failed to respond to Imperial butter (I mean Samura. We must laugh together, if we can't do that then why waste time posting each other?) Anyhoo here is the link for the "Is There a God" part that you ran from (I mean avoided...I mean fled from...I mean...sorry, I'll get it right eventually) or just didn't get around to: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/is_there_a_god.htm [/B]
Still waiting for your response Imperial_Samura.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Either you cannot count from 1 to 15 or you deliberately skipped number "14." It goes a little something like this:14. The lie of evolution. The fact that evolution is taught as if it were a fact all across the world is evidence of man's unwillingness to learn the Truth. Evolution has no scientific basis, it cannot be tested or studied. Evolution is NOT science, but a mere theory of atheist conjectures. If the Bible is not true, then why is mankind desperately trying to hide his ignorance concerning creation. There is NO answer which makes sense except God. [B]Please read "Is There a God?"
Evolution is proof of one thing, that man is afraid of the Truth.The Is There a God part is what you failed to respond to Imperial butter (I mean Samura. We must laugh together, if we can't do that then why waste time posting each other?) Anyhoo here is the link for the "Is There a God" part that you ran from (I mean avoided...I mean fled from...I mean...sorry, I'll get it right eventually) or just didn't get around to: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/is_there_a_god.htm [/B]
Still waiting Imperial_Samura.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Either you cannot count from 1 to 15 or you deliberately skipped number "14." It goes a little something like this:14. The lie of evolution. The fact that evolution is taught as if it were a fact all across the world is evidence of man's unwillingness to learn the Truth. Evolution has no scientific basis, it cannot be tested or studied. Evolution is NOT science, but a mere theory of atheist conjectures. If the Bible is not true, then why is mankind desperately trying to hide his ignorance concerning creation. There is NO answer which makes sense except God. [B]Please read "Is There a God?"
Evolution is proof of one thing, that man is afraid of the Truth.The Is There a God part is what you failed to respond to Imperial butter (I mean Samura. We must laugh together, if we can't do that then why waste time posting each other?) Anyhoo here is the link for the "Is There a God" part that you ran from (I mean avoided...I mean fled from...I mean...sorry, I'll get it right eventually) or just didn't get around to: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/is_there_a_god.htm [/B]
Oh, terribly sorry. I am glad the only problem you had with my desertion there was the fact I left out 14. You see, for some reason it was telling me my reply was to long (don't ask me why when others posts so much more.) So I decided to cut 14, especially considering the fact there are two or more threads in the forum dealing with evolution vs. religion. You wish to debate point 14, go there. I assure you this site has nothing that has not be dealt with before.
But the point is - this sites 15 points are mostly dodgy. Extremely dodgy and build themselves on erroneous claims, claims taken out of context, and the base assumption what the Bible says is true is true because the Bible says it is. As has been reiterated numerous times before - this is neither a valid proof, or a good debating tactic. The claim here is that these points support the proposition there is a God, thus an answer to the question "Is there a God?" The problem is they are all coming from bad positions that, in my mind, do a good job of rendering the claims they make valueless. And I posted simply and without pretension the holes in the claims.
And Imperial Butter? What on earth is that about?
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Oh, terribly sorry. I am glad the only problem you had with my desertion there was the fact I left out 14. You see, for some reason it was telling me my reply was to long (don't ask me why when others posts so much more.) So I decided to cut 14, especially considering the fact there are two or more threads in the forum dealing with evolution vs. religion. You wish to debate point 14, go there. I assure you this site has nothing that has not be dealt with before.But the point is - this sites 15 points are mostly dodgy. Extremely dodgy and build themselves on erroneous claims, claims taken out of context, and the base assumption what the Bible says is true is true because the Bible says it is. As has been reiterated numerous times before - this is neither a valid proof, or a good debating tactic. The claim here is that these points support the proposition there is a God, thus an answer to the question "Is there a God?" The problem is they are all coming from bad positions that, in my mind, do a good job of rendering the claims they make valueless. And I posted simply and without pretension the holes in the claims.
And Imperial Butter? What on earth is that about?
There used to be a butter called "Imperial Butter." That is what I think of everytime that I see your forum name. And I guess you couldn't refute point 14.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
There used to be a butter called "Imperial Butter." That is what I think of everytime that I see your forum name. And I guess you couldn't refute point 14.
Ok, well that clear it up. I don't believe Australia ever had Imperial Butter (I think there was a Royal Butter at one point, but that always made me think of Royal Jelly, so it was a bit of a turn of.)
And I said why. I would respond with "well, it appears you weren't able to refute the other fourteen points I did respond to" - which once again shows the failing of so much of the creation theory - the fact it relies on a small hole in the oppositions claims, despite the vast amount of the rest said that it can't argue against. Is it a cop out? Probably, but I know what happens. I say something on evolution here and someone will turn up. Sithsabre, Blue Nocturne... someone. Then they will debate that, others will get involved and we will be debating evolution here till a mod tells us to get back onto topic.
I could have posted, certainly, and cut one of the other points, but simply decided evolution was the least necessary one due to the presence of other threads dealing with it.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive Show me where I said that Jesus is the Father. I said that Jesus and the Father are one. I furnished Scriptures that allude to Jesus and the Father's oneness but not their lack of individuality. Go back and read the posts entitled, "Jesus is God not a god" Part 1, 2, and 3. I have endeavored to show that Jesus is not a god. I surmise that what is throwing you off is the fact that I state that Jesus is God. I don't mean that Jesus is God the Father. Again go back and re-read my posts. The word "God" at times is used to refer to just the Father. Sometimes the term refers to the Son or the Holy Spirit individually. But the word "God" is singular (depending on the context) and can mean Father, Son or Holy Spirit. Look at the context to know Who or which One that it refers to.
* then, you're statement that "Jesus IS God" is blatantly wrong...
"Yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him."
I Corinthians 8:6
* Saint Paul said that there is ONE GOD of whom all things came from, and that ONE GOD is none other than the Father...
* the correct statement for Jesus should be, "Jesus IS A God"... because how can Jesus be God if He Himself (Christ) said that the Father is greater than He? you cannot reconcile the statement, "Jesus is God" with John 14:28's "the Father is greater than Christ"...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive For example in the Book of Acts chapter 5 verse 3 Peters tells Ananias that he has lied to the Holy Spirit then in the very next verse Peter says that he (Ananias) has not lied to men but to God. Can you see what I mean now? The word "God" is singular and can refer to either Father, Son, or Holy Spirit because each One is God but they are God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit respectively.
* the Bible does NOT supply verses to prove that the Holy Spirit is a God or not, we should not include our pre-conceived ideas or personal conclusion about the matter... the Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit is a power given or sent by God and Christ (Acts 1:8) and that the Holy Spirit is a part of the Godhead (Matthew 28:19) but no verse in the Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit is God or a God nor the Three are equal in power and authority... the Bible tells us that the Father is greater than Christ and Christ is greater than the Holy Spirit...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive Furthermore, I believe that whenever I say that Jesus is God and not a god here is what you hear: "Jesus is the Father God." But that is not what I am teaching. I am teaching that Jesus is God (i.e., in and among the Three Who constitute the Godhead, Father, Son, Holy Spirit).
* the very doctrine of Trinity (which is clearly unbiblical) is clearly confusing you, my friend...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive Jesus confessed to being the Christ, the Son of the Blessed. The high priest, the chief priests, the elders, and the scribes knew what Jesus meant: that He and God--the Father--are equal. This is what drove the high priest into a rage. How dare Jesus affirm equality with God--they thought Jesus was just an ordinary Joe, Who managed to amass a following. But there Jesus stood before them declaring equality with God. That was the last straw. Jesus was condemned to die. He had to die for what He said because to them Jesus was speaking pure, unmitigated blasphemy. Folks, either Jesus is a liar, lunatic, or...He is Who He said that He is: the Son of God Who is equal with God--the Father.
* the equality of the Father and Christ is their being - They are both Gods... the Father is God... Christ is the Son of God, so He is A God...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive I think everytime that I say God I need to either say God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit. Because almost by default the term "God" refers to the Father. I think that is what tripped you up Regret. Lastly, I have already presented ample Scriptures where Jesus is called God. I just gave you one where the Holy Spirit is called God. Those Scriptures support my affirmation that Jesus is God--God the Son.
* Acts 5:3-4 does not tell us that the Holy Spirit was called God... Saint Peter plainly said that Ananias lied to God AND to the Holy Spirit and not to men...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive Now, there are designations (appelations, names, titles), if you would throughout the Bible that give the impression that Jesus is the Father such as in Isaiah 9:6-7 where Jesus is called "everlasting Father." But don't let my use of these verses discommode you. Read my lips (well in this case my words): Jesus is not the Father but Jesus is God. Did you get that? God doesn't mean that Jesus is the Father it just means that He too is among the Godhead.Whew! I hope this justifies me and explains my position which I base on the Word of God.
* Christ is called "Everlasting Father" in Isaiah 9:6 but Christ is not the Father...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive Peejayd, I need to ask this question right off the top: what is the evidence that you personally know Jesus; that you are saved? I am just curious?
* my faith is based on the Bible, my friend... salvation will come after...
"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved."
Matthew 10:22
* those who will endure up to the end will be saved... it's not like just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior and boom! you're saved... nope... it's not that simple...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive Peejayd, sir, you have failed to furnish Scriptures where Jesus is called a god. There is no such thing. Why do you insist on inserting an indefinite article in front of the word God when not one of the writers of the Bible does that?. Jesus is either God or He is not. But He definitely is not a god. That is to belittle Who He is. Again, provide Scriptures for what you believe as I have done copiously.
* the Bible supplies that the Father is God and He is God Almighty... Christ is the Only Begotten Son of the Father... that makes Christ in same being with His Father - God... but since the Father is God and His Son is in His same being, that makes Christ a God...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive According to this passage of Scripture the Jews sought all the more to kill Jesus because He not only broke the Sabbath (He could do that because He is Lord even of the Sabbath, it was made for man not man for it) but because He said that God was His Father making Himself equal with God. Jesus is equal with God. Again, I reiterate nowhere in the Bible is Jesus ever called a god. Jesus is God--God the Son.
* nowhere in the Bible supplies the statement, "God the Son"... Christ, according to the Bible, is the Only Begotten Son of God...
* the Father and Christ are equal in what? care to answer that? in power and authority, Christ said the Father is greater than He (John 14:28)...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive I truly don't understand how you can underestimate what Jesus has done. God (the Father) wants the body of Christ to know that He, the Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit had a part in creation. There is unity among the Godhead. That is the Truth that you are not accepting. I think you understand it but you do not accept this. Do you realize that whether you do something personally or do it through someone else that actually the person that you are doing it through is just as indispensable. For example, electrical current flows through a conductor. Let me ask you something? Can the electrical current get from point a to point b without the conductor? No, it cannot. So the conductor is just as important as the electricity. This is a terrible comparison with regard to God the Father and God the Son but I just want you to get this. Actually, when I think about it, you are raising Jesus' importance by stating via Scriptures that God the Father effected creation through His Son Jesus. I know that was not your intent but that is what you are doing based on my analogy.
* call it whatever you want but what i said was according to the Bible, my friend... i didn't belittle Christ one bit...
"Render to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor."
The Romans 13:7
* i give credit to where it is due... i'm not twisting the Scriptures... i just post something that is plainly written in the Bible... nothing more, nothing less...
* i did not say that Christ and the Holy Spirit had no part in the Creation... i just said that the Father is the Creator, not Christ or the Holy Spirit... and for your benefit, i will supply the functions of Christ and the Holy Spirit in the Creation...
"And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
Genesis 1:2
"Thou sendest forth thy Spirit, they are created; And thou renewest the face of the ground."
Psalms 104:30
* the Holy Spirit is responsible for the renewal of the face of the earth and waters...
"For in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;"
Colossians 1:16
"All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made."
John 1:3
* all things are created by the Father THROUGH Christ... all things are created by the Father IN Christ... the verses are very clear, my friend...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive All I ask...all I want...all I desire...is for you to substantiate that with Scriptures...that's all and I will bring my beliefs into agreement with it. I have no problem with that at all. I am a student of the Word. But if you cannot do thus, then why do you persist in stating something that you cannot support with Scripture? Do you understand where I am coming from Peejayd?
* i don't persist anything not in accordance with the Bible...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive I (read my lips, I mean words): never said that Jesus was God the Father. I had this same communication problem with Regret. I blame myself for not conveying my thoughts adequately, I do not blame you, Regret or anyone.
* the Father is God... you just said "Jesus is God"...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive That is what I have been saying all along. But Jesus is God and not a god, He's just God the Son. There is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I have not deviated from this in any of my posts. Go back and re-read them if necessary. I am consistent. Also consistent is the fact that my statements keep being misinterpreted. When I say that Jesus is God in the flesh hear is what you hear: Jesus is God the Father in the flesh. But what I am saying is that Jesus is God the Son in the flesh. Yes Jesus is human and divine simultaneously.
* another Trinity syndrome, eh? so who created all things? who is the Creator? the Father? Christ? the Holy Spirit? all of the above?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive So is Jesus. Again, you have failed to provide Scriptures that can sustain your insistent belief that Jesus is a god. The burden of proof is on you as it were. I am stating that Jesus is God, God the Son. You are asserting that Jesus is a god.Two words: show me. Where? What chapter and verse? What Book of the Bible. I would love for you to provide several Scriptures but I don't recall that you have even produced one. This is not a challenge, this is a plea. Again, I will bring my beliefs into line if there is enough Scriptural support for it. But the fact is there isn't any.
* okay...
"I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High."
Psalms 82:6
* the Psalms of King David says that the sons/children of God are called what? gods... and oh! that very passage was quoted by Christ Himself...
"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),"
John 10:34-35
* those whom the word of God came are called what, according to Christ? they are called gods! how much more should we call the Only Begotten Son of God? yes, Christ Jesus is a God... He is NOT God because the Father is God...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive Already responded to this, next. I never said or indicated (intentionally) that Jesus is the Father. I said that Jesus is God the Son. Jesus occupies the Godhead just as the Father and the Holy Spirit.
* for the interest of fairness, care to show me where in the Bible are these phrases, "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit"? there are "Son of God" and "Holy Spirit of God" in the Bible but are very unlikely with those you gave...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive I am so very elated and glad that you asked because I am eagerly obliged to tell you: the great God and Savior Jesus Christ! Notice what is conspicuous in its absolute absence: the indefinite article that you invariably insert (because it sure isn't there). Peejayd there are some things that can be inserted (but only as an explanatory thing). The difference between what I insert and what you produce is that my explanatory phrases are drawn straight out of the Word (i.e., they are consistent with the context and inferred). But what you come up with completely changes the meaning of the verse. An indefinite article changes the meaning of a sentence.
* you missed this: Titus 2:13 does NOT have the definite article "the" either...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive [COLOR=darkblue]Case in point: if I say that I prefer to eat an apple I am not being very specific. But if I say that I desire to eat the apple on that tree over there now I am being definite. Thus the term definite article and indefinite article. I said all that to say this: the Bible (which is given by inspiration of God) states that Jesus is our great God and Savior. But yet you say that Jesus is a god. Can you see the difference between what God (the Father) says about His Son and what you say about His Son? God the Father is being specific and definite but you are being unspecific. That is where I have to draw the line and disagree with you. That is a point of contention for me (and should be for any other true believers in Christ). You are taking something away from Jesus and (perhaps inadvertently) putting Jesus in the same class as all of the other false gods. This is the implication when you insert an indefinite article in front of Jesus' true designation. Jesus is God not a god based on the Bible. Base your conclusions about Jesus on the Word not on anything else, not even your own interpretations.
* you want definite? "Jesus is THE Only Begotten Son of God who is a God"... you cannot reconcile you're statement that "Jesus is God" whilst the Bible supplies that the Father is God...