Superman vs. Shazam! ( Captain Marvel)

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
His magic is mostly passive in the form of it being the source of his physical attributes, which are on par with Superman.

It's really simple to me.

Captain Marvel fights Superman and without using magically enhanced punches or Shazam bolts, tends to look very much an equal to Superman.

I mean, to me, that's DC showing that Cap hangs with Superman physically, and without directly exploiting Superman's weakness/disadvantage to magic, which, and let's not kid ourselves, would definitely harm Superman more so than his typical physical onslaught.

Does CM cast insta-kill spells and summon magic weapons capable of severing Superman in two? No, of course not. But when he does actually use his direct magical means of assault, it's detrimental to Superman.

In any case, at least all of us sensible people can agree Superman isn't one shot killing Captain Marvel under any plausible circumstances.

No way is Superman one shotting Cap. Hell no.

Against a bloodlusted Eclipsed Superman, and while holding back, Cap still managed to hold his own. And he took many good, hard blows, while managing to perform much better then he ever has vs Black Adam.

And vice versa, while I admit if Cap charges his punches with lightning he'll cause more damage then a normal punch, I believe the fact it took not one, but TWO good punches to KO him via sneak attack in Crisis Times Five, plus that Cap did very little damage during Superman/Batman, proves that in a fair fight Cap won't destroy Superman either. At the least, whatever extra damage Cap does should be negated by the healing factor Supes gets from the sun, given we're not talking about substantial extra damage. (And if the fight isn't taking place under a sun, it favors Cap regardless of the charged punches.)

Originally posted by h1a8
CM can't amp his punches. You failed to prove that. This is a forum fight and Superman will use his HV against CM. It would prove very detrimental to CM as well.

I will go on to say that CM's magic will not add anything significant to damaging Superman (if it adds anything at all).

Superman is stronger, faster, more experienced, better skilled, and has more (better) powers than CM. He wins period.

Are you phucking kidding me? 😬

Seriously, you have next to no idea who the hell Captain Marvel is.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Are you phucking kidding me? 😬

Seriously, you have next to no idea who the hell Captain Marvel is.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
He wanted to kill her but first he wanted to make her (Dommsday) suffer, so yes during the fight he didn't try to kill her, he would have killed her in the end, after he would finish the punishment.

And now the stage is open to you Carver and your infamous lowballing, go on 😉.

"And the truth is I wanted to kill him with my bare hands. And I tried. Oh, how I tried."

If you want an explanation, it looks like he changed his mind about throwing Doomsday into the sun, and sent him to Earth instead to farther beat on him until he finally killed him.

It may seem like lowballing to you because you don't read comics, but I'm not trying to lowball here. I'm not even trying to argue his heat visions effect, I'm just saying that he did try to kill "Doomday'.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Are you phucking kidding me? 😬

Seriously, you have next to no idea who the hell Captain Marvel is.

Originally posted by h1a8
I fail to see CM amping his punches there.

Do you fail to see the obvious thunder indicating what happened there?

He also amped his fists when he sucker punched Superman in the pages of JLA.

You have people who are backing Superman in this contest who are also acknowledging Captain Marvel possessing the ability to amp his punches with lightning; it's next to common knowledge. And you're, what? Flat out ignoring it while even suggesting it won't add extra damage to Superman on top of Cap's straight up physical might? Jesus.

My guess is that because KMC's Captain Marvel respect thread isn't very organized and this scan wasn't in the thread itself, you assumed he had no such feats of amping his strikes. That's happen when you base your knowledge purely off of reading respect threads and selective reading at that.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Why is PG tongue kissing Supes there?

She was possessed by the Sin Lust. Cap was likewise possessed by Gluttony. Said sins altered their personality, but didn't augment their abilities or power set. Johns also wrote PG thinking that Superman was sexy, too prior to this crossover.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
She was possessed by the Sin Lust. Cap was likewise possessed by Gluttony. Said sins altered their personality, but didn't augment their abilities or power set.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Do you fail to see the obvious thunder indicating what happened there?

He also amped his fists when he sucker punched Superman in the pages of JLA.

You have people who are backing Superman in this contest who are also acknowledging Captain Marvel possessing the ability to amp his punches with lightning; it's next to common knowledge. And you're, what? Flat out ignoring it while even suggesting it won't add extra damage to Superman on top of Cap's straight up physical might? Jesus.

My guess is that because KMC's Captain Marvel respect thread isn't very organized and this scan wasn't in the thread itself, you assumed he had no such feats of amping his strikes. That's happen when you base your knowledge purely off of reading respect threads and selective reading at that.

You might need to show him the next page when Superman was laid out. Also, show him the other "one shot" as well... maybe that would put some thought in his head.

In Superman/Batman, Cap dealt more damage to Supes than vice verse. They hit each other with the same amount of punches but Cap didn't have a scratch but Superman face was bruised up.

Originally posted by cdtm
Disagree, for several reasons.

Pre Crisis, the magic weakness was more pronounced then it is now, but it's never been a factor in physical conflict with Marvel or Adam. The magic lightning would mess him up, but not punches from Cap or Adam.

And it's disingenious to claim KMC ignores the weakness in Wonder Woman, as her magic endowments likewise haven't been treated as a weakness, ever.

Pre-Crisis is irrelevant. And Cap's amped punches have messed up Superman.

Except when she slashes his throat like butter with her tiara.

Originally posted by cdtm
John Byrne was a writer who believed Supes had a specific weakness to magic (As opposed to someone like Busiek, who has argued on CBR he has no special weakness, but that any character who lacks special defenses against magic would have the same problems Supes does, including other high end bricks), and yet when Supes faced Morgan Le Fey and created a magic cage, which Etrigan the Demon and Le Fey herself believed was unbreakable, Superman easily shattered it. Supes goes on to explain that she only used magic to shape the cage, but the cage itself had no magic properties against him, and so he was able to shatter it.

With Wonder Woman, this appears to be how her magic nature is treated. Her magic is manifested as "shaping her", via giving her life, and empowering her. But that's not the same as using magic offensively, such as in a spell.

Classic Wonder Woman, before she got retconned to hell had several magical abilities including Godwave, Zeus' lightning, her Lasso, etc.

Originally posted by cdtm
With Cap, being able to use magic outside of lightning is a recent phenomenon.

But it's clearly NOT a game changing attack, as multiple versions of Superman have taken both his magically charged punches with little damage, and survived his magical lightning. Clearly, even the writers who believe this magic weakness is, in fact, a weakness and not a simple lack of defenses (Therefore magic will affect Superman worse then, say, The Hulk, and not the same as), don't believe it spells instant defeat vs Cap, or such would be demonstrated. (And Supermans comment under Loeb notwithstanding, such was not demonstrated, as the best Cap could do with two unanswered punches is a lightly bloodied nose, while Supes was suffering from the effects of a Kryptonite asteroid.)

That lightning has stunned/knocked Superman out. And enough with the straw-manning, you're not good at it. Cap's magic lightning =/= instant defeat, but it's a game changer. It puts Superman at a disadvantage and he has to work around it.

Bottom-line is this: if you're going to casually dismiss Cap's magic advantage, you're not reading Superman comics or their fights. The advantage gets brought up all the time. Superman is smart and he himself admits it completely. Captain Marvel is humble but even he himself admits it sheepishly. This is on-panel. It's foolish to ignore it.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Are you phucking kidding me? 😬

Seriously, you have next to no idea who the hell Captain Marvel is.

In this same comic, Hal had a pretty good showing against Alan Scot. Wasn't it Hal that blew up that entire building and koed everyone. Also, Batman was beastly as a possessed Demon.

I could really care less if someone thinks Superman would win or Cap would in the end as you can make a case for either, really, but to act like Cap being Superman's peer on top of having the ability to exploit a weakness or disadvantage of Superman somehow translates into "Ah, Cap is weaksauce" is ridiculous.

Originally posted by carver9
In this same comic, Hal had a pretty good showing against Alan Scot. Wasn't it Hal that blew up that entire building and koed everyone. Also, Batman was beastly as a possessed Demon.

That was Kyle. Hal was dead at the time.

And Batman pretty much beat the shit out of Dr. Mid-Nite.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
That was Kyle. Hal was dead at the time.

And Batman pretty much beat the shit out of Dr. Mid-Nite.

During that fight, were they already possessed or did they get possessed after the explosion (can't remember). It was a good read though and I think Alan Scot got dropped during that issue by wood particles (stupid).

Yeah, I believe the possession took place during that time. Mr. Terrific used airborne polymer particles I believe or something to take down Alan. Alan getting taken down by stupid stuff is a staple of JSA comics, though; he's consistently portrayed as their biggest gun so plot device winds up handicapping him or something or another until he gets better and pretty much obliterates or stomps the opposition.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Do you fail to see the obvious thunder indicating what happened there?

He also amped his fists when he sucker punched Superman in the pages of JLA.

You have people who are backing Superman in this contest who are also acknowledging Captain Marvel possessing the ability to amp his punches with lightning; it's next to common knowledge. And you're, what? Flat out ignoring it while even suggesting it won't add extra damage to Superman on top of Cap's straight up physical might? Jesus.

My guess is that because KMC's Captain Marvel respect thread isn't very organized and this scan wasn't in the thread itself, you assumed he had no such feats of amping his strikes. That's happen when you base your knowledge purely off of reading respect threads and selective reading at that.

I still see no amped punches. I don't care who acknowledges what. Until I actually see CM amping his punches to do extra damage then he can't. He has no powers different than Superman other than saying Shazam.

I'm taking it that if CM doesn't amp his punches then Superman wins for you?

Originally posted by h1a8
The lightning [B]BEHIND HIM is just an introduction of him.

I still see no amped punches. I don't care who acknowledges what. Until I actually see CM amping his punches to do extra damage then he can't. He has no powers different than Superman other than saying Shazam.

I'm taking it that if CM doesn't amp his punches then Superman wins for you? [/B]

You do know that Superman was koed after that hit right? If that was a normal punch from Captain Marvel that knocked Superman the hell out... well, you get the rest.

Originally posted by h1a8
The lightning [B]BEHIND HIM is just an introduction of him.

I still see no amped punches. I don't care who acknowledges what. Until I actually see CM amping his punches to do extra damage then he can't. He has no powers different than Superman other than saying Shazam.

I'm taking it that if CM doesn't amp his punches then Superman wins for you? [/B]

That doesn't make any sense. The thunder illustration makes it clear the blow was backed by magical power. Cap doesn't just randomly make lightning appear without saying Shazam or explicitly using lightning based powers. And for Christ's sake, knock off this whole "until I see it it doesn't exist" bullshit. The rest of this forum, regardless of how they feel about Marvel knows he can amp his fists with magical lightning. It's common knowledge. I'm sorry there's no scan - outside of the one I just posted 😐 - of amped ass kicking for you to digest.

He doesn't have to amp his punches to win as he's already on Supes' level and can still Shazam him if he wants. The magic firepower is just what snyches it in for him.

I can't believe I searched for this just to prove you wrong, h1, but here. It's clearly in his power set.

And yes, I'm fully aware that this was a sucker two punch.

None worth discussion.

Pre-Crisis is irrelevant. And Cap's amped punches have messed up Superman.

Except when she slashes his throat like butter with her tiara. Magic cage is completely and utterly a red herring. Nobody's using a stone cage that was conjured into being to trap Superman here. MAGIC IS A WEAKNESS. Cap's magic lightning is magic. That's it. Superman has to work around it. That's a disadvantage. A serious one when they're presented as nearly equal physical peers.

Wonder Woman's magic equipment is as much of a red herring as you're accusing me of making. More so, since I wasn't arguing the effectiveness of her equipment, but the effect of her fists.

Irrelevant to what we're talking about. We're talking about his magic lightning.

Lets see what I was responding to:

Originally posted by Allankles
Supes should take the majority. It's funny that Marvel is the only magic based herald strong man that seems to automatically get an edge on Supes by simple virtue of having magic.

Originally posted by OneDumbGO
That's because on KMC people unilaterally ignore Superman's acute magic weakness and only countenance speaking of it when it comes to Captain Marvel because he isn't (a) a Marvel character like Thor, or (b) a woman like Wonder Woman.

Of course, even with Captain Marvel, people will still pretend like it doesn't matter.

Doesn't look like you're talking about the magic lightning here. It looks like Allankles made a comment about Caps physical status against Supes, and you commented that KMC ignores Wonder Womans magic advantage because of her gender. Nice job calling KMC posters sexist, as well as biased (Your comment on Thor), btw.

That lightning has stunned/knocked Superman out. And enough with the straw-manning, you're not good at it. Cap's magic lightning =/= instant defeat, but it's a game changer. It puts Superman at a disadvantage and he has to work around it.

As I proved, you're the one misrepresenting.

Also, when has the magic lightning EVER knocked Superman out? In any continuity, comic or cartoon?

[Bottom-line is this: if you're going to casually dismiss Cap's magic advantage, you're not reading Superman comics or their fights. The advantage gets brought up all the time. Superman is smart and he himself admits it completely. Captain Marvel is humble but even he himself admits it sheepishly. This is on-panel. It's foolish to ignore it.

And I'm not denying it's a weakness. Only that it isn't the major game changer you're making it out to be. The charged punches don't seem to cause much extra damage (As depicted on panel, this is undeniable), and the magic lightning leaves Cap vulnerable to being pulled into his own attack, reverting him to Billy.