Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman manages a split at best. He's that cautious about magic and Billy's that non-ruthless that that's what ends up happening in comics. It's always been Billy's fight to lose.
Crisis Times Five, Billy puts Superman down with two sneak attacks. He does it again with a sneak attack in Virtue and Vice, and while not in his right mind.
Eclipsed Superman, on two occasions, possibly amped but certainly not holding back, holds an edge over a Captain Marvel who's only trying to help him...
Superman/Batman had Superman admitting Billy held an edge toe to toe due to magic, and Billy drew a little blood from two or three unanswered punches (Which is pretty weak. Supes gave a bigger bloody nose to Earthman with one punch), but Superman was also weakened by a giant asteroid of Kryptonite coming towards Earth, plus he just recovered from getting shot with a Kryptonite bullet..
Then there's Kingdom Come, where you can either look at it as Billy kicking his ass with magic lightning and Superman winning by the skin of his teeth via magic exploitation, or Superman taking half a dozen magic lightning attacks and still having the presence of mind to pull him into his own lightning for the win.
I'm sure there's other fights I'm forgetting (They had a brief tussle in Justice, and fought before that arm wrestling feat where Superman only wins because of Mary transforming and stealing some of his strength..)
That's all post crisis. IMO, you can't really say Cap or Supes had an advantage, because they've simply never had a clean fight.
Pre Crisis is a different story. Their one major fight had both Superman and Captain Marvel mind screwed to fight their hardest, and Superman appeared to have an edge for most of the fight. However, it was stated numerous times that Billy was weakened during the fight being outside of Earth S, where he simply wouldn't tire or weaken... And yet, Captain Marvel was STILL about to win the fight with his magic lightning, when the Wizard Shazam told Billy he HAD to throw the fight, for some unexplained really stupid reason
In all the fights they've had, that's the only one where I'd say it was Caps to lose.
It can't be an even split. Superman can do everything CM but more.
And this is assuming they are peers in strength, speed, and durability.
I don't buy that magic crap for the simple fact they were taking the same amount of damage from each other with their punches. That means that magic bothers Superman forcing Superman to be far stronger than CM (in order for their punches to appear equal against each other) or that they are equals in strength and magic is doing nothing against Superman.
With that said, it doesn't matter. They both can give the same damage to each other with their punches so all that matters is who has the more powers at their disposal.
Originally posted by h1a8
It can't be an even split. Superman can do everything CM but more.
No, he can't.
Originally posted by h1a8
And this is assuming they are peers in strength, speed, and durability.
They are.
Originally posted by h1a8
I don't buy that magic crap for the simple fact they were taking the same amount of damage from each other with their punches. That means that magic bothers Superman forcing Superman to be far stronger than CM (in order for their punches to appear equal against each other) or that they are equals in strength and magic is doing nothing against Superman.
Cap's "magic" only comes into play when he Shazam's Superman or when he explicitly amps his fists with the Power of Zeus. Otherwise, his physical blows under their own power deal damage to Superman as he's his peer.
Originally posted by h1a8
With that said, it doesn't matter. They both can give the same damage to each other with their punches so all that matters is who has the more powers at their disposal.
Or who can capitalize more on the others weakness/disadvantage against magic.
Originally posted by JakeTheBankUnless you mean the lightning by saying Shazam. If so then I consider that worst than Superman HV. So you are right Superman can't do everything CM can do. But since the lightning is a non factor then I still say Superman can do everything CM can do but more.
No, he can't.
I disagree. But that is moot to my argument.
They are.
Show me CM amping his fists explicitly with the Power of Zeus.
Cap's "magic" only comes into play when he Shazam's Superman or when he explicitly amps his fists with the Power of Zeus. Otherwise, his physical blows under their own power deal damage to Superman as he's his peer.
Superman is hella resistant against magic. He has multiple feats to prove it. Magic in itself isn't a fix against Superman. Shazaming Superman is nothing compared to Superman HVing CM. Cis on for Superman would be the only thing keeping the HV from penetrating CM like he's tissue paper.
Or who can capitalize more on the others weakness/disadvantage against magic.
Originally posted by h1a8
Unless you mean the lightning by saying Shazam. If so then I consider that worst than Superman HV. So you are right Superman can't do everything CM can do. But since the lightning is a non factor then I still say Superman can do everything CM can do but more.
Not just lightning via "Shazam!" Cap's Wisdom enables him to perceive things that Superman cannot and he has the ability to travel to other dimensions linked to Earth via the Power of Zeus. Superman has his unique powers and abilities, as does Cap. And also considering that the Power of Shazam is one of the most potent spells/sources of magic in the DCU, his "lightning" would be more detrimental to Superman than Superman's HV would be to Cap.
Originally posted by h1a8
I disagree. But that is moot to my argument.
Of course you disagree. 😐
Originally posted by h1a8
Show me CM amping his fists explicitly with the Power of Zeus.
When he suckered punched Supes in JLA and during the events of Trial of Shazam in which he discovered he could make the magic lightning which powers him - the primary function of the Power of Zeus, tangible. And duing plenty of battles with Black Adam. Case in point, the Power of Zeus is directly connected to his lightning and his lightning based punches. That's Shazam knowledge 101, brah.
Originally posted by h1a8
Superman is hella resistant against magic. He has multiple feats to prove it. Magic in itself isn't a fix against Superman. Shazaming Superman is nothing compared to Superman HVing CM. Cis on for Superman would be the only thing keeping the HV from penetrating CM like he's tissue paper.
Of course he has magic resistant feats. He's also has plenty of feats of magic seriously injuring him or bringing him close to defeat or death. Bullshit on Supes' HV doing more damage to Cap than Cap's Shazam doing more damage to Superman. That's just asinine. CIS on for Cap means he doesn't amp his fists via Zeus and turn Superman's face into a mess as he shouts Shazam when Clark is too messed up to properly dodge or push him into his own bolt.
Originally posted by JakeTheBankThat's irrelevant. The point was clearly that Superman can doing anything CM can do but more IN BATTLE against each other.
Not just lightning via "Shazam!" Cap's Wisdom enables him to perceive things that Superman cannot and he has the ability to travel to other dimensions linked to Earth via the Power of Zeus. Superman has his unique powers and abilities, as does Cap. And also considering that the Power of Shazam is one of the most potent spells/sources of magic in the DCU, his "lightning" would be more detrimental to Superman than Superman's HV would be to Cap.
I read trials of Shazam. I don't remember anything you are talking about with him amping his punches with lightning. Please post a scan or something. And I certainly don't recall him amping his punches against BA.Of course you disagree. 😐
When he suckered punched Supes in JLA and during the events of Trial of Shazam in which he discovered he could make the magic lightning which powers him - the primary function of the Power of Zeus, tangible. And duing plenty of battles with Black Adam. Case in point, the Power of Zeus is directly connected to his lightning and his lightning based punches. That's Shazam knowledge 101, brah
Superman's feats where magic seriously hurting him don't count. Character's fight at the best of their abilities as shown before. Only high non PIS feats are allowed. And don't give me that crap where it isn't right. Everyone here (including Rage) uses a character's high feats as a measuring stick and disregard their lower feats.
Of course he has magic resistant feats. He's also has plenty of feats of magic seriously injuring him or bringing him close to defeat or death. Bullshit on Supes' HV doing more damage to Cap than Cap's Shazam doing more damage to Superman. That's just asinine. CIS on for Cap means he doesn't amp his fists via Zeus and turn Superman's face into a mess as he shouts Shazam when Clark is too messed up to properly dodge or push him into his own bolt.
Superman's HV is strong enough to penetrate even him like tissue paper. Superman doesn't apply that type of power to it because of his character. If CIS was off Superman would kill CM with one HV shot through the brains.
Originally posted by h1a8
That's irrelevant. The point was clearly that Superman can doing anything CM can do but more IN BATTLE against each other.
And Superman's HV with CIS off will kill CM with one strike. CM can shazam Superman multiple times and Superman would still be conscious and ready to fight.I read trials of Shazam. I don't remember anything you are talking about with him amping his punches with lightning. Please post a scan or something. And I certainly don't recall him amping his punches against BA.
Superman's feats where magic seriously hurting him don't count. Character's fight at the best of their abilities as shown before. Only high non PIS feats are allowed. And don't give me that crap where it isn't right. Everyone here (including Rage) uses a character's high feats as a measuring stick and disregard their lower feats.
Superman's HV is strong enough to penetrate even him like tissue paper. Superman doesn't apply that type of power to it because of his character. If CIS was off Superman would kill CM with one HV shot through the brains.
CIS was off when an enrage Superman that seen Diana aka Wonder Woman as Doomsday that just killed Loius and Superman was trying to kill Diana but his heat vision didn't go through her like tissue paper. Remember, again, Superman intention was to kill her... hell, he tried to throw her in the sun.
Captain Marvel durability>>Wonder Woman durability.
Originally posted by h1a8
That's irrelevant. The point was clearly that Superman can doing anything CM can do but more IN BATTLE against each other.
And Superman's HV with CIS off will kill CM with one strike. CM can shazam Superman multiple times and Superman would still be conscious and ready to fight.I read trials of Shazam. I don't remember anything you are talking about with him amping his punches with lightning. Please post a scan or something. And I certainly don't recall him amping his punches against BA.
Superman's feats where magic seriously hurting him don't count. Character's fight at the best of their abilities as shown before. Only high non PIS feats are allowed. And don't give me that crap where it isn't right. Everyone here (including Rage) uses a character's high feats as a measuring stick and disregard their lower feats.
Superman's HV is strong enough to penetrate even him like tissue paper. Superman doesn't apply that type of power to it because of his character. If CIS was off Superman would kill CM with one HV shot through the brains.
He has enhanced senses and heat vision and ice breath. Cap has enhanced senses (not to Kal's level) and enhanced awareness/claivoyence, can amp his fists with lightning, and can summon lightning from above via shouting Shazam, and manipulate the weather without saying Shazam. And he's also displayed the ability to throw lightning bolts due to his role as the Keeper of the Rock, before he fully ascended to Lord Marvel. In combat, they're about the same. And Cap does stuff Kal can't just like vice versa.
Also prove that Superman can one-shot kill Cap with heat vision.
Read it again, then. He clearly says and shows as much. It's before he becomes Lord Marvel officially. And Cap's amped strikes have been shown multiple times when fighting Adam.
No, we don't "high end" only people's feats. We take them into consideration, but we don't throw everything else out. Even Rage doesn't exclusively toss out average and mid upper Thor feats exclusively for high end feats unless high end only feats are taken into account. You do that because it supports whatever ridiculous stance you want to uphold of the week. I certainly don't do that shit and neither does the forum as a whole. Because, guess what? High end feats can be PIS, too. Especially if they contradict a character's showings as a whole.
CIS off Superman isn't one shot killing Captain Marvel.
Originally posted by JakeTheBankCM never showed anything but shazaming in battle. Naming powers that won't be used in battle is a waste of time. CM can't throw lightning bolts or amp his fists with lightning or manipulate the weather like storm or thor. I don't believe you. Please post scans or give issue numbers or it didn't happen. Hell I'll accept one of each. Show me one throwing lightning feat and one amping his fists with some lightning and some storm like weather manipulation. Till then I call BS.
He has enhanced senses and heat vision and ice breath. Cap has enhanced senses (not to Kal's level) and enhanced awareness/claivoyence, can amp his fists with lightning, and can summon lightning from above via shouting Shazam, and manipulate the weather without saying Shazam. And he's also displayed the ability to throw lightning bolts due to his role as the Keeper of the Rock, before he fully ascended to Lord Marvel. In combat, they're about the same. And Cap does stuff Kal can't just like vice versa.Also prove that Superman can one-shot kill Cap with heat vision.
Read it again, then. He clearly says and shows as much. It's before he becomes Lord Marvel officially. And Cap's amped strikes have been shown multiple times when fighting Adam.
No, we don't "high end" only people's feats. We take them into consideration, but we don't throw everything else out. Even Rage doesn't exclusively toss out average and mid upper Thor feats exclusively for high end feats unless high end only feats are taken into account. You do that because it supports whatever ridiculous stance you want to uphold of the week. I certainly don't do that shit and neither does the forum as a whole. Because, guess what? High end feats can be PIS, too. Especially if they contradict a character's showings as a whole.
CIS off Superman isn't one shot killing Captain Marvel.
Yes Rage does. Whenever someone shows an average feat where Thor looks bad, Rage counters with a better feat to disregard it. You didn't notice this yet?
And u missed what I said. I said NON PIS high end feats count only.
And CM isn't more durable than Superman. Especially against something that gives Superman his power. If a beam of HV can go through Superman then it definitely can CM.
Originally posted by carver9
CIS was off when an enrage Superman that seen Diana aka Wonder Woman as Doomsday that just killed Loius and Superman was trying to kill Diana but his heat vision didn't go through her like tissue paper. Remember, again, Superman intention was to kill her... hell, he tried to throw her in the sun.Captain Marvel durability>>Wonder Woman durability.
Kryptonian's HV was shown in comics to go through each other like tissue paper. The fact that Superman's HV didn't go through WW is because of PIS or it was a low showing. Hell didn't MM melt BA's face off with HV?
Originally posted by h1a8
It can't be an even split. Superman can do everything CM but more.
And this is assuming they are peers in strength, speed, and durability.I don't buy that magic crap for the simple fact they were taking the same amount of damage from each other with their punches. That means that magic bothers Superman forcing Superman to be far stronger than CM (in order for their punches to appear equal against each other) or that they are equals in strength and magic is doing nothing against Superman.
With that said, it doesn't matter. They both can give the same damage to each other with their punches so all that matters is who has the more powers at their disposal.
Im inclined to agree wtih you theses days when it comes to supes, and captian marvel. Supes is slightly stronger and faster in combat i think but not by much unless he went ape shit. In all honesty supes was holding back a bit in kingdom come. But to be fair marvel didnt look like he was a ravaged mad man going nuts. He loooked more agressive then supes but not going all out. The magical lighting possed by marvel is incredibly strong but it has to many flaws. This saying shazam, grabbing billy and constently reverting him back to marvel is getting old, and i mean very old. I also think its poor writing to.
superman 6/10
Originally posted by h1a8
Yes Rage does. Whenever someone shows an average feat where Thor looks bad, Rage counters with a better feat to disregard it. You didn't notice this yet?
😂
I rarely, if ever, bust out high end showings unless they're specifically being asked for or it's a direct comparison as to who has the better high end showings such as the Gladiator/Thor strength feat which for the record was as one sided as a debate between you and me.
I point out when someone uses a high end feat as if it was the norm. Even when it's Thor.
Originally posted by zeel
Im inclined to agree wtih you theses days when it comes to supes, and captian marvel. Supes is slightly stronger and faster in combat i think but not by much unless he went ape shit. In all honesty supes was holding back a bit in kingdom come. But to be fair marvel didnt look like he was a ravaged mad man going nuts. He loooked more agressive then supes but not going all out. The magical lighting possed by marvel is incredibly strong but it has to many flaws. This saying shazam, grabbing billy and constently reverting him back to marvel is getting old, and i mean very old. I also think its poor writing to.superman 6/10
Do you know how many times has the Shazam lightning backfired in canon? And how many times Captain Marvel has actually "Shazam'd" Superman in continuity?
Most of the time he fights Superman on even grounds without even using his lightning based powers.