Superman vs. Shazam! ( Captain Marvel)

Also, what exactly is this whole needless projection onto the fight that Superman wasn't, in fact, trying to murder Doomsday during Sacrifice? Are people that upset that he failed to murder a Wonder Woman who was barely holding back? So what? What a needless thing to argue in the face of the glaringly obvious. Because how are we arguing he wasn't trying to throw him into the sun and murder Doomsday when it's stated clear as day from the fight itself:

And the entire epilogue that walked us through Superman's own thought processes hammers that point home relentlessly, "And the truth is that I wanted to kill him with my bare hands."

"And I tried. Oh, how I tried. . . . I wanted him dead. I wanted him to burn."

"He never stops. Which meant I couldn't either..."

"Not until I killed him or he killed me."

1. 2. 3.

This ain't flowery purple prose poetry. It's plain English. There's no reason to butcher plain, simple English. Superman was trying to murder Doomsday right from the get-go (via Sun toss) and wasn't holding back. I'll admit, I haven't read all the back-and-forth, but if there is some dispute over that: it's ridiculous. Bank on-topic:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman manages a split at best. He's that cautious about magic and Billy's that non-ruthless that that's what ends up happening in comics. It's always been Billy's fight to lose.

Predictable responses.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Basically, if Superman says something on-panel that utterly confirms an argument that causes Superman butt-hurt like, "And the truth is I wanted to kill him with my bare hands. [b]And I tried. Oh, how I tried." or "Marvel's powers are based on magic. Toe-to-toe he has the advantage." ... somehow it doesn't count.

On-panel? Who cares. Clear plain English? Who cares. It's like a jobber aura. No, it's basically butt-hurt aura. Another of Superman's many powers. Waah, waah.

You're putting me in the camp of posters who downplay Wonder Womans fight? Please. I often argue against posters who downplay that feat, and your blind accusation further proves you're not arguing in good faith, nor interested in an honest debate...

And you're also fixated on Supermans words from one example, and ignoring how his fights play out.

Messing him up in that Superman being punched by Superman wold already hurt a lot. A Superman with amped punches would hurt even more.

Really? Lets put this to the test.

First, lets see how comparable bricks of non magic origin affect Superman:

Superman, from the same storyline where Loeb has Supes reference the magic weakness, getting bloodied by future Superman.

Lobo battering and bloodying Supes.

Russian Zod bloodies and breaks Supermans jaw.

Now lets contrast with the ENTIRE scene your point is based around, rather then a cropped panel that bolsters your point.

Coming from anyone else, this amount of damage wouldn't even bear mentioning.. Yet, Cap fans insist the little trickle of blood from two unanswered hits proves a weakness.

And finally, I'll post the opening of his fight with Black Adam:

Dr. Psycho forced Adams hand, so it's highly unlikely Adam was pulling his punch. As you can see, Superman took his punch with no visible damage, and immediately counterattacked (Which was also forced by Dr. Psycho)

So there you have it. On panel examples of non magical bricks damaging him, contrasted with the results of Caps and Adams attacks.

I'm not trumping up the magic weakness, I'm just pointing out that you can't wishfully ignore it. So you've basically conceded that Diana's magical abilities and equipment are effective.

Strawman. I never argued against magical items hurting him.

Sorry you and Allankles only wanted to talk about their physicality. If anything is the red herring, it's that. Nobody's argued that Cap's muscles are magic = advantage. We've always talked about the magic that has consistently given Cap an advantage that Superman must work around: his lightning. You both want to divert attention away from what's been slapping Superman fans in the face for years onto a non-existent argument (Cap/WW's physicality is an advantage because it was made of magic, no it's not) so you don't have to confront the actual argument (Cap/WW can and have used magic against him).

Another strawman. I was responding to your statement concerning magically empowered beings vs Superman, nothing more.

Posted by OneDumbGO:

More dishonesty/cherry picking. *Shock*. In the full fight, he fails to KO Superman, and has the lightning turned against him. Thank you for helping me make my point.

Also posted by OneDumbGO:

And, back to using the infamous cheapshot as proof. If you want to use that as proof of how a fair fight would go, I guess I'll use this:

Hey, maybe Cap has a weakness against bald people? Or against the color green?

Still want to argue cheap shots prove anything, at all?

Yeah. Yeah it does matter. Enough with the excuses and deflections onto non-existent arguments. This is plain comic book fact. [/B]

You're apparently the Shawn Hannity of KMC. Shouting talking points, spin doctoring, and acting unjustifiably condescending does not = winning the argument.

So what's the point of contention, that Superman isn't quite weak to magic? That depends purely on the writer but there have been many a time when magic has f*cked him up.

If the debate is whether or not the magic empowering the Shazam family effects Superman negatively, I think it's only in play when Billy or Adam are going out of their way to utilize magic such as encasing their fists with Zeus' lightning. That's why magic was immediately referenced when Marvel was able to two shot Superman or Black Adam used lightning enhanced Punches against Prime.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I had no intention of hiding or misleading others. The intial bolt is from the vocal Shazam spell, but what I wanted to focus on was the fact that he can make the lightning tangible. Ever wonder why when Cap or Billy shout Shazam inside a building said building doesn't explode? It's because the lightning itself can be tangible and strike with force if he wants it to. Same reason why sometimes the transformation is a single bolt, and other times it's a massive pillar which wrecks the landscape. And in the pages of JSA, Cap alongside Bladam displayed the ability to manipulate the weather and call down lightning without even saying Shazam. The point is, Cap's lightning, whether it be in the form of the Shazam shout or laced with his punches or his entire body when he makes a torpedo tackle is pure magical energy at work. Magical energy which will harm Superman.

Because I don't like having to go through comics and trying to scan pages if I don't have to. And seriously, Cap amping/charging his fists with magical energy is something that seriously everyone who debates here knows he can do. Even now, it's mind boggling that you really didn't believe he could after multiple scans and even more so when you say it wouldn't even effect Superman all that much.

And downplaying CM's magic and the effect it will have on Kal while at the same time highballing Superman is ridiculous.

I doubt seriously that CM amping his punches with lightning is what most people on this forum know when he hasn't done it that much (in ratio to his career). Hell just looking at some of the scans appears that the artist is just emphasizing lightning, like when Thor's hammer strikes sometimes.

I agreed that the lightning around CM's fist will add some more damage effect to Superman. My argument is now that it won't add enough to outweigh Superman's advantages. I already believe Superman hits harder than CM (when he is very serious) so IMO the magical effect CM has just evens things out in the punching dept. Now Superman has him faded in other areas though like skill/experience and battle speed and other powers like HV.

You won the debate that CM can amp his punches with lightning and that it will add to the effect on Superman. With that said, I still say Superman wins for the reasons I stated.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
So what's the point of contention, that Superman isn't quite weak to magic? That depends purely on the writer but there have been many a time when magic has f*cked him up.

If the debate is whether or not the magic empowering the Shazam family effects Superman negatively, I think it's only in play when Billy or Adam are going out of their way to utilize magic such as encasing their fists with Zeus' lightning. That's why magic was immediately referenced when Marvel was able to two shot Superman or Black Adam used lightning enhanced Punches against Prime.

Yeah, it's about the magic empowering affecting Supes negatively, and how big a deal it will be in their fight. Supermans comments about being weak against Cap toe to toe don't really play out in their fights. The magic lightning is another story. Yeah, it hurts him.

It's also backfired on Billy EVERY time it's been used (Which by my count, is three times over various continuities. Once from Kingdom Come, once from that second Eclipso encounter, and once from the DCU animated series.)

The main problem with the lightning, is that Billy has to get close to use it, and Supes simply isn't as weak against all forms of magic as he used to be pre crisis. Back in the day, a single lightning bolt would end it. Now, he can take upwards of half a dozen, and still manage to grab him and pull him into his own attack.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
lol

There's trying to convince me, and then there's trying to convince yourself. Guess what you're doing?

I never cherry picked anything, I never ignored anything. I'm actually trying to explain it in full. I already said this. Thanks for ignoring what I said. Thanks for initially ignoring the quote in the comic too. Thanks for passing by that quote and choosing to not show it, and also ignore it.

That's funny, because the direction she came from was from the sun. Superman twisted around and punched her back to Earth. Jesus.
Either way, he could have easily punched her into the sun. But that works in line with him trying to make Doomsday suffer...

His memories do work fine with the fine.
But everytime I bring it up, you start complaining something irrelevant about it being his memories. You have no consistency at all.

Yes, because she stopped it. Why would I understand something so dumb?
"Superman wasn't trying to kill her, he was only trying to burn her bones."
Do you actually think about what you write?

Why would you re-quote something where you said he wasn't trying to kill her? You just... you're proving everything I say right. This couldn't be easier. Seriously, you're proving yourself wrong for me.
Let me explain though so even you can understand.
Here's you saying he wasn't trying to kill her IN THE FIGHT:

Here's you saying he tried really hard to kill her:

You see that? That's you changing your mind.
Well boy, I thought that'd be tougher to explain.

Also, lol at quoting you correctly. I've quoting everything you've said in full without cropping anything. All I did was bold the funny parts. Please start reading what you write before you hit "Submit Reply".

How am I hating?
Also lol at Phil saying everything I'm saying (except the heat vision part)... what a hater Phil is.

You can twist it like you want, the fact remains that you have been proven wrong.

You get a dur from me though, for the cheapest attempt so far. You can keep on ignoring everything I said and repeat your untruthful interpretations of my posts facepalm.

And Phil doesn't shares your point of view, with the exception of one small detail, the Sun incident/punch. So you disagree with ODG then, because he has to share my opinion?

😐 No. I would prefer do side with Phil, he seems more reasonable then ODG and you. And I think he agrees that Superman didn't try to kill WW but make her suffer first AND then kill her.

Anyway, that's not our debate, so byebye. Keep on telling more lies, it surely helps your case 👆.

And for ODG. I don't bother or try hard because you aren't worth it smile.

But Supermans holds back almost always and when there is a crisis big enough to go all out, like he did durin OWAW, he is above Billy and every other DC "Herald". If Billy holds back as much as Superman, why didn't we see him then doing all the work during OWAW??

Just for you

CM without amped punches iow magic while holding back = Superman holding back
CM with magic while holding back > Superman holding back
CM with magic while holding back =< Superman all out.
CM with magic all out ==< Superman all out

FIXED
Waiting for the Superman is DC's flagship argument...

Originally posted by cdtm
Predictable responses.

And finally, I'll post the opening of his fight with Black Adam:

Dr. Psycho forced Adams hand, so it's highly unlikely Adam was pulling his punch. As you can see, Superman took his punch with no visible damage, and immediately counterattacked (Which was also forced by Dr. Psycho)

So there you have it. On panel examples of non magical bricks damaging him, contrasted with the results of Caps and Adams attacks.

i have a problem with this. you see ive read this story and it was BLACK ADAM the whole fight that didn't even want to fight.....it was superman that was pouring it on.

Originally posted by cdtm
Yeah, it's about the magic empowering affecting Supes negatively, and how big a deal it will be in their fight. Supermans comments about being weak against Cap toe to toe don't really play out in their fights. The magic lightning is another story. Yeah, it hurts him.

Your deflections from the argument at hand: that Captain Marvel can use amped fists and his lightning which forces Superman to work around them putting him at a disadvantage, is nothing short of b1tching. Captain Marvel didn't use amped fists in Superman/Batman so why are you wasting time trying to compare that damage with other bricks?

Stop equivocating. You've done nothing but straw-man, spam rebuttals to non-existent arguments and offer up unextraordinary statements of fact that have nothing to do with the fact that Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman have magic advantages that can be exploited, thus Superman must work around. And no, for the fifth phucking time, it's not their normal fists. It's the magical abilities they can bring to fore, e.g., amped fists, lightning strikes, tiara, lasso, Zeus' lightning.

Originally posted by cdtm
It's also backfired on Billy EVERY time it's been used (Which by my count, is three times over various continuities. Once from Kingdom Come, once from that second Eclipso encounter, and once from the DCU animated series.)

Originally posted by cdtm
The main problem with the lightning, is that Billy has to get close to use it, and Supes simply isn't as weak against all forms of magic as he used to be pre crisis. Back in the day, a single lightning bolt would end it. Now, he can take upwards of half a dozen, and still manage to grab him and pull him into his own attack.

So enough with this pointless discussion and trying to talk past me to some imaginary poster who is arguing different points that you find convenenient to counter. Nobody's arguing them. Nobody. There's even less point talking past each other since you've ALREADY conceded the point, "The magic lightning is another story. Yeah, it hurts him." Nuff said.

Superman.

Cap is lucky he has the magic edge.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Also, what exactly is this whole needless projection onto the fight that Superman wasn't, in fact, trying to murder Doomsday during Sacrifice? Are people that upset that he failed to murder a Wonder Woman who was barely holding back? So what? What a needless thing to argue in the face of the glaringly obvious. Because how are we arguing he wasn't trying to throw him into the sun and murder Doomsday when it's stated clear as day from the fight itself:

And the entire epilogue that walked us through Superman's own thought processes hammers that point home relentlessly, "And the [b]truth is that I wanted to kill him with my bare hands."

"And I tried. Oh, how I tried. . . . I wanted him dead. I wanted him to burn."

"He never stops. Which meant I couldn't either..."

"Not until I killed him or he killed me."

1. 2. 3.

This ain't flowery purple prose poetry. It's plain English. There's no reason to butcher plain, simple English. Superman was trying to murder Doomsday right from the get-go (via Sun toss) and wasn't holding back. I'll admit, I haven't read all the back-and-forth, but if there is some dispute over that: it's ridiculous. Bank on-topic: [/B]

CM can match SM's speed and strength. I've seen Supes pissed I would love to see CM pissed off and cut loose.

Originally posted by D-Block
CM can match SM's speed and strength. I've seen Supes pissed I would love to see CM pissed off and cut loose.

So you don't think Captain Marvel keeping with Clark in basically ever single fight they've ever had is in of itself evidence that speed won't be the deciding factor in their battles?

Well, first of all, when two bricks go at it, it rarely is, second of all, Captain Marvel's speed has been established outside of his battles with Superman such as his guest appearance in the Flash where Wally even wondered if he had a connection to the Speed Force, Billy and Adam fighting at speeds that made them blurs to onlookers. Adam was also capable of running at Mach 500 while having his speed drained by Jay and kept up with him in hand to hand combat IIRC.

For gods sake..

Anyone who's arguing Superman wasn't trying to kill Wonder Woman is delusional.

Even in the recent stat handbooks and stuff (while admittedly they would considered non-canon), they still give them nigh identical stats overall, and for the basic attributes like strength, speed, etc, they do give them identical marks.

Originally posted by cdtm
Yeah, it's about the magic empowering affecting Supes negatively, and how big a deal it will be in their fight. Supermans comments about being weak against Cap toe to toe don't really play out in their fights. The magic lightning is another story. Yeah, it hurts him.

It's also backfired on Billy EVERY time it's been used (Which by my count, is three times over various continuities. Once from Kingdom Come, once from that second Eclipso encounter, and once from the DCU animated series.)

The main problem with the lightning, is that Billy has to get close to use it, and Supes simply isn't as weak against all forms of magic as he used to be pre crisis. Back in the day, a single lightning bolt would end it. Now, he can take upwards of half a dozen, and still manage to grab him and pull him into his own attack.

When he fights a magically empowered brick, the weakness usually isn't in play whether it's Marvel, Adam, Diana or even Thor. It's more when he fights the Abra Kadabra type magicians that it's consistently in play.

Of course, there's no hard and fast rule, and I've seen Clark crippled from Werewolves and Vampire Bats to simply being in a presence of great magic. So logically speaking it should be in play but history has shown us repeatedly that it's not unless a brick goes out of their way to use magic such as Marvel's lightning or Diana's weapons.

You mean a legitimate Shazam Bolt? I think Billy is competent enough to have a decent shot but Clark isn't stupid and knows what he's capable of. I'd say it's a 50/50 shot unless Billy catches him by surprise.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
or even Thor.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Of course, there's no hard and fast rule, and I've seen Clark crippled from Werewolves and Vampire Bats to simply being in a presence of great magic. So logically speaking it should be in play but history has shown us repeatedly that it's not unless a brick goes out of their way to use magic such as Marvel's lightning or Diana's weapons.

It also heavily depends on the writer. Generally speaking, there's two camps on Supermans magic weakness. Some writers believe his physical powers merely offer no resistance to magic. Other writers treat magic as a kind of Kryptonite, affecting Superman in an extraordinary way, even beyond character who lack specific magic defenses.

For instance, after JLA/Avengers was out, Busiek was on CBR taking flack for how he portrayed Supermans magic weakness against Thor, and Busiek flat out claimed he doesn't believe in a magic weakness. Basically, his argument was that some characters have magic armor, and some don't (He never used the term magic armor, but this best describes his argument..) So, if a Vampire has a magic "bite through anyone" teeth, they'll bite through a human, Superman, Gladiator, or any character who doesn't have demonstrated magic armor in place..

Contrast this view with what happened in All Star Squadron in the 1980's, where Hitler had magic that only affected magic based characters like Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman, or Alan Scott, but didn't affect normal humans like Batman. Yet, for some reason it also affected Superman. That's a case of the magic weakness being a "true" weakness, imo.

And even among the writers who believe the magic weakness is a full blown weakness, there's a lot of variation. James Robinson wrote an entire three part story based around Superman getting his ass kicked by Atlas, specifically because Atlas's powers were based on Magic. John Byrne also seemed to be in the "Magic = weakness" camp, yet he also wrote the debut of Silver Banshee, and had her magic voice kill several humans. Yet the same magic scream only put Superman in a coma..

[quote]You mean a legitimate Shazam Bolt? I think Billy is competent enough to have a decent shot but Clark isn't stupid and knows what he's capable of. I'd say it's a 50/50 shot unless Billy catches him by surprise.

Agreed with this. The lightning bolt can be both a strength and a weakness for Billy, since there's virtually no way he can unleash his attack without putting himself at risk.

If Billy's smart about it, I can see him getting in a shot or two though..

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
i have a problem with this. you see ive read this story and it was BLACK ADAM the whole fight that didn't even want to fight.....it was superman that was pouring it on.

You're right. This fight was a feat for Black Adam, more then it was for Superman.

But I posted the initial strike that Dr. Psycho forced Adam to make, to prove that taking punches from a magic based being like Adam isn't any different from taking punches from a non magic being, therefore merely being powered by magic doesn't = a weakness for Supes.