Comicwise Supes wins forumwise they are equals with Marvel having slight edge due to magic fist. However KC supes and Shoko's supes would murderstomp normal supes and Cap Marvel break about even.
The difference between KC and normal supes btw
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/41083/1236897-kingdomcome_super.jpg
Originally posted by BlackZero30x
understood, but the other thing is he and captain marvel have been shown to be able to actually channel the magic into an attack. In this scan BA did not do that.imo it would affect superman in the same way ivy did in hush. She laced her mind control powder with kryptonite. Otherwise it would have never worked.
If you mean the charged punch attack, the only real examples we have of those attacks being used on Supes is from Caps sucker punch attacks.
And in one of those scenes, Cap even failed to one shot him. The first punch only stunned him, and the second knocked him out.
Which either means adding the charge to his punch doesn't add enough of an advantage to make much difference (After all, there's plenty of examples of Superman or comparable characters getting one shotted via sucker punch), or that the difference between a visibly charged punch vs non charges is artists discretion. (And if it's not an artists discretion thing, ask why Loeb would even reference magic when he pitted Cap against Supes? His fist obviously wasn't charged, meaning it shouldn't have been a factor, so why bring it up?)
In the worst case for Superman, it can be argued the charged punch gives Cap about as much of an edge as Supermans HV gives to him, and personally I don't consider the HV much of an edge at all... It's an annoyance at best, and won't win him a fight.
Originally posted by Uriel005
Comicwise Supes wins forumwise they are equals with Marvel having slight edge due to magic fist. However KC supes and Shoko's supes would murderstomp normal supes and Cap Marvel break about even.
The difference between KC and normal supes btwhttp://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/41083/1236897-kingdomcome_super.jpg
I love that scene. 😆
No one thinks that Superman is oneshotting CM with his HV like he did with Despero. But he should be able to pierce his skin or even shoot through him. CM can survive worse. Superman however can survive amped punches and CMs magic lightning. They are euqals and a fight would most likely end with 50-50.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
It's possible the burst could have been fatal; the heat vision could have burned out her retina's and rendered her blind, it could have penetrated her brain like you suggest. But we do know, obviously, the heat vision he did hit her with was not. Considering Cap survived having his body turned inside out, I personally find it skeptical that Superman is going to one-shot KO him, much less kill him with anything in his arsenal.I mostly find issue with the idea that Superman is all of sudden going to becomes this monstrous force with one shot killing power who is so far beyond Cap and we're supposed to toss out anything that isn't "good" or "high" enough for Superman but assume Cap will just be, oh, I don't know, just stand around and let Superman do all this stuff he doesn't do as a rule. Hell, I may as well say Cap BFRs Superman to the RoE where his power is amplified and beats the total shit out of him if we're just going to spout out unlikely scenarios.
oh, i'm not saying it would be a dicisive factor in all their fights--i'm saying that in 1/10, supes COULD do something like that and if it killed cap, i personally wouldn't have an issue with it given some of the hv feats and it's power. maybe in another, it could just blind cm. these are just possible outcomes i see that i would NOT find 'unbelieveable' if they happened.
supes and cap are about as evenly matched as it can get, and any slight edge by the other can be used as a possible deciding factor in any single fight. i've always viewed it as pretty much a split, or 5.5/10 clark.
Originally posted by cdtm
If you mean the charged punch attack, the only real examples we have of those attacks being used on Supes is from Caps sucker punch attacks.And in one of those scenes, Cap even failed to one shot him. The first punch only stunned him, and the second knocked him out.
Which either means adding the charge to his punch doesn't add enough of an advantage to make much difference (After all, there's plenty of examples of Superman or comparable characters getting one shotted via sucker punch), or that the difference between a visibly charged punch vs non charges is artists discretion. (And if it's not an artists discretion thing, ask why Loeb would even reference magic when he pitted Cap against Supes? His fist obviously wasn't charged, meaning it shouldn't have been a factor, so why bring it up?)
In the worst case for Superman, it can be argued the charged punch gives Cap about as much of an edge as Supermans HV gives to him, and personally I don't consider the HV much of an edge at all... It's an annoyance at best, and won't win him a fight.
i mean it does clearly hurt him when he gets hit by the bolt of lighting i don't see why it wouldn't add any extra damage if he wrapped his fists in it.
but yea that was what i was talking about but i was meaning that imo it would weaken sups so he would feel caps punches a bit more then he should hence my k-Nite dusting reference.
as for the 2 characters they IMO are equals in all areas.....I also feel DC would agree with me about that. I mean they only got the rights to cap because the felt he was a magic powered copy.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Yes, because as the story from Superman's point of view showed, Diana's moves were translated to be Doomsday's moves, like for example Diana throwing her tiara and cutting his neck was shown, from Superman's perspective, as Doomsday swinging and cutting him with his bones.
You know exactly what I said. I did not say Superman saw Wonder Woman. I said Superman was effectively reacting to everything Diana did, whether he saw exactly what was going on or not.
--
That doesn't mean that when he dodged the lasso, he saw the lasso coming towards him. That doesn't mean that when Diana put on the kryptonite ring, he saw the kryptonite ring, panicked, and stupidly punched Diana back to Earth (?!) eventough she was standing right between him and the sun.
I can't believe you're actually suggesting that, when the story made it clear that Superman was seeing something completly different in his mind and even moreso, the actual event we're talking about - Superman punching Doomsday/Diana from the sun to Earth was illustrated from both perspectives, unlike the lasso one, and at no point was Superman shown to see Diana with a kryptonite ring, or Doomsday putting a kryptonite ring.
--
Notice how "I wanted him to suffer first" is exactly the same panel where he inexplicably doesn't punch Doomsday into the sun, but instead towards Earth?
This may be worse than when you said Cyborg Superman's skeleton was actually Anti-Monitor's. Maybe even worse than "Thor is faster than instantly".
Like I said, this is one of the most retarded reachings I've seen on this board.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0This is supposed to help your case? The fact that as I've shown, Superman was in a clear position to punch her clean into the sun:
Yet he does a complete 180 and punches her to Earth instead?
One day, ODG, you should send us some of the comics you're talking about.
One day.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaI've already pointed out that Superman wasn't seeing things accurately. So do everyone a favor and stop trying to misrepresent what I state. Superman not seeing things accurately is an uncontroversial fact which isn't mutually exclusive of Superman's hypnosis still translating Wonder Woman's advantages into hallucinatory situations he has to deal with effectively.
Yes, because as the story from Superman's point of view showed, Diana's moves were translated to be Doomsday's moves, like for example Diana throwing her tiara and cutting his neck was shown, from Superman's perspective, as Doomsday swinging and cutting him with his bones.That doesn't mean that when he dodged the lasso, he saw the lasso coming towards him. That doesn't mean that when Diana put on the kryptonite ring, he saw the kryptonite ring, panicked, and stupidly punched Diana back to Earth (?!) eventough she was standing right between him and the sun.
I can't believe you're actually suggesting that, when the story made it clear that Superman was seeing something completly different in his mind and even moreso, the actual event we're talking about - Superman punching Doomsday/Diana from the sun to Earth was illustrated from both perspectives, unlike the lasso one, and at no point was Superman shown to see Diana with a kryptonite ring, or Doomsday putting a kryptonite ring.
It's a testament to the pervasiveness and effectiveness of Maxwell Lord's power. Not an indication that Superman was, by happenstance, very lucky that he coincidentally negated Wonder Woman's two trump cards in the fight (while not trying to kill... ????). Superman was doing the same to Batman. You think he saw the JLA security drones in their entirety and accurately? Of course not. But he was still dealing with them immediately and effectively.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaWas Wonder Woman trying to avoid getting taken to the Sun? Yes. Did Wonder Woman wrestle away from his superstrong grasp in the middle of being zoomed towards the Sun? Yes. Did Wonder Woman not want to get thrown into the Sun? Yes. Was Wonder Woman's back to the Sun at the moment when Superman punched her? Yes.
[b]Notice how "I wanted him to suffer first" is exactly the same panel where he inexplicably doesn't punch Doomsday into the sun, but instead towards Earth?This may be worse than when you said Cyborg Superman's skeleton was actually Anti-Monitor's. Maybe even worse than "Thor is faster than instantly".
Like I said, this is one of the most retarded reachings I've seen on this board.
This is supposed to help your case? The fact that as I've shown, Superman was in a clear position to punch her clean into the sun:
Yet he does a complete 180 and punches her to Earth instead?
One day, ODG, you should send us some of the comics you're talking about.
One day. [/B]
Granting that Wonder Woman's back was to the Sun for a majority of the space fight, do you expect me to believe that Superman can turn his own orientation around 180 degrees and somehow punch Wonder Woman? Wonder Woman had to be between Superman and Earth. It's a veritable prerequisiste for being punched in that direction. Why am I even pandering this to you? This conversation has become as tepid as any I've had.
Because at the end of the day, you're still trying to convince yourself that Superman was still holding back and wasn't trying to throw her into the Sun to kill her from the very start. Is that what the comics say? Really? REALLY? REALLY?
Let's look at the comics, shall we, so I can understand how your prodigious intelligence mangles simple English reads in-between the lines to get to the truth:
1.
Diana: "And he thinks I'm Doomsday. Which means he's holding nothing back."
Philosophía's translation: "And he thinks I'm Doomsday. Which means he's holding nothing back. because I'd be dead in a nanosecond if he wasn't holding back, whew, I'm one lucky slut!"
2.
Diana (being superspeed tackled from the start): "He's taking me to the Sun. And he's going to throw me into it."
Philosophía's translation: "He's not taking me to the Sun. And he's not going to throw me into it. No... he'll likely just bring me back to Earth because he's not yet trying to kill me, you see."
3.
Superman (at the very beginning of the fight): "And the truth is that I wanted to kill him with my bare hands."
Philosophía's translation: "And the truth is that I wanted to kill only beat him up (but not kill!) him with my bare hands Which means I still have to hold back, so fanboy, don't get worried this isn't an all-out Superman he's fighting! *winks*."
4.
Superman (as he's zooming her into the Sun): "I wanted him dead. I wanted him to burn."
Philosophía's translation: "I wanted him dead alive. I wanted him to burn feel warmer than usual because actually, I'm a nice guy and the mountains where we were were cold. See... even when fighting Doomsday, I'm still nice to him... totally don't want him dead or anything."
Superman was holding back somehow? Superman wasn't trying to kill? Superman wasn't trying to take her into the Sun? Here's a sincere question: are you rucking fetarded? Or is that Superman butthurt at raging rectal dam burst levels now?
Get over it. Stop expanding this trainwreck. You're reaching "Thanos stalemated Odin" levels at this point. And that's being nice.
^Being mindcontrolled =/= holding back.
It was her impression, her opinion. But just because you fight angry, like a beast doesn't mean you cut loose. Not holding back = using all your abilities to their fullest, to their best, calm and tactically, like in the fights against the imperiex Probes during OWAW. Here he fought like a madman.
Just sayin.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime"It has become primal. . . . He has put those thoughts aside, numbing himself into the necessary state of violence. . . . AS his "partner" is truly destruction personified, so has he [Superman] become . . . he has cut loose..."
DD was rampagin. Superman wasn't. He fought very focused.
I understand you want battle-savvy Superman as the no CIS, no holding back Superman. Frankly, that's how he is when he doesn't want to kill. But a raging Superman can effectively rampage forward and murder. He's that powerful. Ultimately, it appears you want the end result to dictate the mindset. That's too convenient.
Superman was focused on killing all the probes, right? Superman was also focused on killing Doomsday/Diana. Just because he failed the latter doesn't mean he wasn't trying. That's an overly self-serving and convenient excuse. If it makes you feel better to think there's some distinction worth noting, that's your prerogative, I simply disagree.
So long as you're not rucking fetarded and pretend that Superman was holding back, wasn't trying to kill her and never intended to throw her into the Sun. He did. Diana stated so in that very fight. Her statements were not meant to mislead the reader. Writers aren't trying to be tricky. Even if you refuse to believe the accuracy of her statements, the phucking epilogue stated so too and reinforced her view. This isn't even worth arguing it's so obvious.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Superman was trying to kill her and was pretty much cutting loose, to say otherwise is just plain retarded but I don't believe he was fighting as efficiently as he could.
Pretty much. Its hugely nonsensical and a sign of blatant fanaticism to think he wasnt goig all out or trying to kill her when this is re-enforced numerous times by the dialogue. However, going all out =/= fighting to the whims of resident forum sycophant.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0For the purpose of your argument, your suggesting that he was, in fact, seeings things accurately enough - that he was, in fact, seeing that Wonder Woman had kryptonite and that he reacted accordingly. That goes against everything in the issues. You have no proof of it. All you have is him reacting to her attacks - when in fact, I already explained to you why that was - in Superman's mind, Wonder Woman's moves were translated into Doomsday's moves - it had nothing to do with him seeing what Wonder Woman is attacking him with.
I've already pointed out that Superman wasn't seeing things accurately.
I'll put it bluntly.
Superman was unaware of the kryptonite ring. There is nothing suggesting he was aware of it, and that as a consequence of that fact, he punched Wonder Woman to Earth
If you believe otherwise, you're desperately reaching. And you're an idiot.
But if you want to show that you're not an idiot, by all accounts. Prove your stance. Prove that Superman was aware of kryptonite, and his actions were a result of this.
