Superman vs. Shazam! ( Captain Marvel)

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And that underlined point is exactly what we agree on. Good job trying to deflect onto Captain Marvel's pure strength (which, while magical in nature), is not in and of itself, cutting through Superman's natural durability ([b]an argument that was NEVER made by ANYBODY).[/B]

I'll respond to this for now, and the rest later:

Originally posted by Allankles
Supes should take the majority. It's funny that Marvel is the only magic based herald strong man that seems to automatically get an edge on Supes by simple virtue of having magic.

originally posted by OneDumbGOThat's because on KMC people unilaterally ignore Superman's acute magic weakness and only countenance speaking of it when it comes to Captain Marvel because he isn't (a) a Marvel character like Thor, or (b) a woman like Wonder Woman.

Of course, even with Captain Marvel, people will still pretend like it doesn't matter.

If you're going to argue about "magic based strongmen", that implies discussion of a physical nature.

Here, Allankles makes such a statement about "magic based strongmen", and you counter that a similar edge in magic is ignored unilaterally because of bias/sexism.

And that's what I was responding to. On Wonder Woman's sword cutting Superman, or her tiara, or her lightning hurting him, we're in agreement, and have been from the start.

^ To be fair, his first claim I was responding to was that Cap's magic is the straight physical kind and that he doesn't have the esoteric magic in his arsenal to give Superman fits. And my response to him began with this:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Cap's used amped punches and lightning. And it's an arsenal that has given Superman fits.

Those dirty little... uhuh

Originally posted by cdtm
For gods sake..

Anyone who's arguing Superman wasn't trying to kill Wonder Woman is delusional.

I don't even know why the Sacrifice fight got brought up to begin with. I guess because Superman didn't display anything more than clearly being more physically formidable than Diana - which is something we all know to be the case anyway - and didn't one shot kill her or something it's a shitty showing.

Originally posted by cdtm
You're right. This fight was a feat for Black Adam, more then it was for Superman.

But I posted the initial strike that Dr. Psycho forced Adam to make, to prove that taking punches from a magic based being like Adam isn't any different from taking punches from a non magic being, therefore merely being powered by magic doesn't = a weakness for Supes.

understood, but the other thing is he and captain marvel have been shown to be able to actually channel the magic into an attack. In this scan BA did not do that.

imo it would affect superman in the same way ivy did in hush. She laced her mind control powder with kryptonite. Otherwise it would have never worked.

regular lighting would(should)have no effect on him but lighting of magical decent should.

It's not like magic is superman's specific weakness or anything it's a universal weakness for most heroes/villains so make no mistake it's not like superman is being singled out here by people saying "caps amped punches would hurt supes" it just a common fact that he has trouble with magic. So when going against an opponent that is more or less on par with him that can use magic in a variety of ways it would cause trouble for superman toe to toe

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I don't even know why the Sacrifice fight got brought up to begin with. I guess because Superman didn't display anything more than clearly being more physically formidable than Diana - which is something we all know to be the case anyway - and didn't one shot kill her or something it's a shitty showing.

I brought it up because someone was claiming that if Superman used his heat vision full force against Captain Marvel, it would chop through him and he used his heat vision full force on Diana and it didn't even come close to doing that and Cap is more durable than her.

Originally posted by carver9
I brought it up because someone was claiming that if Superman used his heat vision full force against Captain Marvel, it would chop through him and he used his heat vision full force on Diana and it didn't even come close to doing that and Cap is more durable than her.

Yeah, but that's common sense, or it should be.

Superman's heat vision is powerful and it would hurt Cap, but only in a deluded S shield induced haze-like wet dream would Superman one shot kill Cap with it.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yeah, but that's common sense, or it should be.

Superman's heat vision is powerful and it would hurt Cap, but only in a deluded S shield induced haze-like wet dream would Superman one shot kill Cap with it.

Well, you have a couple of people that believes this. Don't want to say the names of the people that thinks Superman heat vision would chop through Captain Marvel because they will deny it (Omega Vision, Batman Prime, H1) but that was the reason I brought it up.

I said it can one shot him and not that it will. Superman doesn't kill so he wouldn't use it on CM at that extent. Superman would just pour it on just enough to hurt and get an advantage on CM.

Originally posted by h1a8
I said it can one shot him and not that it will. Superman doesn't kill so he wouldn't use it on CM at that extent. Superman would just pour it on just enough to hurt and get an advantage on CM.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Superman tried killing WW with it and it didn't come anywhere close to it so we have an example of superman trying to kill a weaker character and it falling short. You never have any proof but we usually can prove you wrong.

Right on point. H1 don't know what in the hell he is talking about.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Superman tried killing WW with it and it didn't come anywhere close to it so we have an example of superman trying to kill a weaker character and it falling short. You never have any proof but we usually can prove you wrong.

Either WW is more durable against HV than CM or it was a low showing for Superman. Other instances have the HV going through powerful beings (including Superman) like tissue paper.

Swine Flu is up to his old tricks again I see. He doesn't like the showing for Superman it's PIS and a low showing... He does like it.. that is superman at average holding back... not even at his best. Why do people continue to argue with him I will never know

Or it could be the average and more in line with the consistent depiction of Superman's heat vision when he pours it onto herald class beings.

Originally posted by h1a8
Either WW is more durable against HV than CM or it was a low showing for Superman. Other instances have the HV going through powerful beings (including Superman) like tissue paper.

Originally posted by h1a8
I said it can one shot him and not that it will. Superman doesn't kill so he wouldn't use it on CM at that extent. Superman would just pour it on just enough to hurt and get an advantage on CM.

Lol... don't know why I waste my time. Its pointless. Its PIS debating against you.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yeah, but that's common sense, or it should be.

Superman's heat vision is powerful and it would hurt Cap, but only in a deluded S shield induced haze-like wet dream would Superman one shot kill Cap with it.

hmm, i'll disagree with this--at least to a degree. i always thought that in this scene:

http://s388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/?action=view&current=Superman01-1.jpg

superman was trying to kill her and simply missed his intended target. she prays for speed from hermes. why? so she could avoid the killing blow that MAY have followed had he hit his intended target--her eyes.

he had his vision narrowed to a very fine degree. it wasn't a broad, massive strike. it was more like a surgical beam. the way i've always read it was he really did try and kill her there. he just missed his mark because she was fast enough to turn her head. i think twin hv beams through her eyes into her brain may very well have one-shot killed her. i think that kind of strike against cm could possibly kill him too. a more broad, massive attack? no, i don't see that being nearly as effective or deadly. 😬

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, i'll disagree with this--at least to a degree. i always thought that in this scene:

http://s388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/?action=view&current=Superman01-1.jpg

superman was trying to kill her and simply missed his intended target. she prays for speed from hermes. why? so she could avoid the killing blow that MAY have followed had he hit his intended target--her eyes.

he had his vision narrowed to a very fine degree. it wasn't a broad, massive strike. it was more like a surgical beam. the way i've always read it was he really did try and kill her there. he just missed his mark because she was fast enough to turn her head. i think twin hv beams through her eyes into her brain may very well have one-shot killed her. i think that kind of strike against cm could possibly kill him too. a more broad, massive attack? no, i don't see that being nearly as effective or deadly. 😬

Wolverines adamantium claws through her eyes could kill her. Slades promethium sword through her eyes could kill her. Wonder Woman tiara through his eyes could possibly do the same.

I don't get your post. That doesn't change that her outer shell withstood his heat vision

Originally posted by carver9
I don't get your post.

imagine my shock. 😐

but perhaps it is my fault. perhaps you could point out where the stips stated "outer shell" for all of us? that would avoid anyone else confusing you.

the question was could hv kill her. loads said no. i said 'yes' and made a case for it, also, at the same time, dealing with the question of whether or not he was actually 'trying to kill her'. and the post was made in reference to jake, not you. but to avoid further confusion in that area, i'll just throw you on ignore. problem solved.

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, i'll disagree with this--at least to a degree. i always thought that in this scene:

http://s388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/?action=view&current=Superman01-1.jpg

superman was trying to kill her and simply missed his intended target. she prays for speed from hermes. why? so she could avoid the killing blow that MAY have followed had he hit his intended target--her eyes.

he had his vision narrowed to a very fine degree. it wasn't a broad, massive strike. it was more like a surgical beam. the way i've always read it was he really did try and kill her there. he just missed his mark because she was fast enough to turn her head. i think twin hv beams through her eyes into her brain may very well have one-shot killed her. i think that kind of strike against cm could possibly kill him too. a more broad, massive attack? no, i don't see that being nearly as effective or deadly. 😬

It's possible the burst could have been fatal; the heat vision could have burned out her retina's and rendered her blind, it could have penetrated her brain like you suggest. But we do know, obviously, the heat vision he did hit her with was not. Considering Cap survived having his body turned inside out, I personally find it skeptical that Superman is going to one-shot KO him, much less kill him with anything in his arsenal.

I mostly find issue with the idea that Superman is all of sudden going to becomes this monstrous force with one shot killing power who is so far beyond Cap and we're supposed to toss out anything that isn't "good" or "high" enough for Superman but assume Cap will just be, oh, I don't know, just stand around and let Superman do all this stuff he doesn't do as a rule. Hell, I may as well say Cap BFRs Superman to the RoE where his power is amplified and beats the total shit out of him if we're just going to spout out unlikely scenarios.