Originally posted by Naija boy
Pretty much. Its hugely nonsensical and a sign of blatant fanaticism to think he wasnt goig all out or trying to kill her when this is re-enforced numerous times by the dialogue. However, going all out =/= fighting to the whims of resident forum sycophant.
Been a while, how've you been? Keeping up with the current Thor arc?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0👆
"It has become [b]primal. . . . He has put those thoughts aside, numbing himself into the necessary state of violence. . . . AS his "partner" is truly destruction personified, so has he [Superman] become . . . he has cut loose..."I understand you want battle-savvy Superman as the no CIS, no holding back Superman. Frankly, that's how he is when he doesn't want to kill. But a raging Superman can effectively rampage forward and murder. He's that powerful. Ultimately, it appears you want the end result to dictate the mindset. That's too convenient.
Superman was focused on killing all the probes, right? Superman was also focused on killing Doomsday/Diana. Just because he failed the latter doesn't mean he wasn't trying. That's an overly self-serving and convenient excuse. If it makes you feel better to think there's some distinction worth noting, that's your prerogative, I simply disagree.
So long as you're not rucking fetarded and pretend that Superman was holding back, wasn't trying to kill her and never intended to throw her into the Sun. He did. Diana stated so in that very fight. Her statements were not meant to mislead the reader. Writers aren't trying to be tricky. Even if you refuse to believe the accuracy of her statements, the phucking epilogue stated so too and reinforced her view. This isn't even worth arguing it's so obvious. [/B]
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Was Wonder Woman between Superman and the sun, with her back towards the sun, as she was charging Superman and he was preparing to strike?
WWas Wonder Woman's back to the Sun at the moment when Superman punched her?
Yes.
Despite that, does the next panel show Superman doing a 180 and hitting her towards Earth?
Yes.
Is it consistent with how the match was from Superman's point of view, where in the same panel where he does this to Wonder Woman/Doomsday, he says that he wants him to suffer first?
Yes.
What is your position exactly, that Superman did a 180 by mistake and punched her back to Earth, eventough the entire purpose of bringing him there is to throw her/Doomsday inside the sun?
Make me laugh.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
"It has become [b]primal. . . . He has put those thoughts aside, numbing himself into the necessary state of violence. . . . AS his "partner" is truly destruction personified, so has he [Superman] become . . . he has cut loose..."I understand you want battle-savvy Superman as the no CIS, no holding back Superman. Frankly, that's how he is when he doesn't want to kill. But a raging Superman can effectively rampage forward and murder. He's that powerful. Ultimately, it appears you want the end result to dictate the mindset. That's too convenient.
Superman was focused on killing all the probes, right? Superman was also focused on killing Doomsday/Diana. Just because he failed the latter doesn't mean he wasn't trying. That's an overly self-serving and convenient excuse. If it makes you feel better to think there's some distinction worth noting, that's your prerogative, I simply disagree.
So long as you're not rucking fetarded and pretend that Superman was holding back, wasn't trying to kill her and never intended to throw her into the Sun. He did. Diana stated so in that very fight. Her statements were not meant to mislead the reader. Writers aren't trying to be tricky. Even if you refuse to believe the accuracy of her statements, the phucking epilogue stated so too and reinforced her view. This isn't even worth arguing it's so obvious. [/B]
Her opinion. He was full of anger, pain, hate, rage. Full of emotion, there we agree.
Against the probes:
]"It has become primal. . . . He has put those thoughts aside, numbing himself into the necessary state of violence. . . .
Now comes the important part, that makes all the difference between the two fights
the destruction of so many probes has demonstrated an important lesson to him...that in war, EMOTION can hinder the ultimate goal... TO WIN[b/]
AS his "partner" is truly destruction [b]personified, so has he [Superman] become . . . he has cut loose..."
But it doesn't stop here, no sir:
So he plows ahead, confident in his powers, confident in his mindset and his decisions....
he thinks of Lois, he thinks of his parents, but only for a moment, such THOUGHS are dangerous, he knows that NOW.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
1.Diana: "And he thinks [b]I'm
Doomsday. Which means he's holding nothing back."2.
Diana (being superspeed tackled from the start): "He's taking me to the Sun. And he's going to throw me into it."
Philosophía's translation: "He's not taking me to the Sun. And he's not going to throw me into it. No... he'll likely just bring me back to Earth because he's not yet trying to kill me, you see." [/B]
ODG: "Superman wants her dead so bad man, so bad! He totally wants to throw her into the sun, dude! So eventough he is in a perfect position, he throws her back to Earth.
That's how badly he wants her dead.
NO, it doesn't matter that in the exact same panel where Superman punches DD/WW he says he wants to make her/him suffer first.
He clearly wanted her dead.
But back to Earth.
Not inside the sun!"
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Been a while, how've you been? Keeping up with the current Thor arc?
Pretty good, put comics on the backburner for awhile but jumped back
into it recently. Just caught up with the current thor arc and mainline DC issues right up to flashpoint.
Excited for Surfer vs Thor, though i doubt its going to live up to the hype. Even more excited for Galactus vs Odin however. Hoping that Galactus draws a clear line between he and Odin putting all arguments to bed. Perhaps after stomping asgard, Thor convinces surfer to convince Galactus to leave them alone ala Fantastic four 😄
Originally posted by Naija boy
Pretty good, put comics on the backburner for awhile but jumped back
into it recently. Just caught up with the current thor arc and mainline DC issues right up to flashpoint.Excited for Surfer vs Thor, though i doubt its going to live up to the hype. Even more excited for Galactus vs Odin however. Hoping that Galactus draws a clear line between he and Odin putting all arguments to bed. Perhaps after stomping asgard, Thor convinces surfer to convince Galactus to leave them alone ala Fantastic four 😄
School? You were studying to be a lawyer right?
Haha, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. Honestly, all Odin has to do is put up a good fight and the tears would start flowing. God forbid Odin won, Fraction would probably be burned alive on the Cross.
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeThe comic makes it clear more than once he was trying to kill her. He wasn't holding back and was cutting loose to his fullest. No one is saying he was fighting with a level or clear head but suggesting he wasn't trying to kill WW/DD is ignoring the comic which makes it clear. There is no debate it says over and over he wants her/DD dead just failed to do so due to WW.
^Being mindcontrolled =/= holding back.It was her impression, her opinion. But just because you fight angry, like a beast doesn't mean you cut loose. Not holding back = using all your abilities to their fullest, to their best, calm and tactically, like in the fights against the imperiex Probes during OWAW. Here he fought like a madman.
Just sayin.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
School? You were studying to be a lawyer right?Haha, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. Honestly, all Odin has to do is put up a good fight and the tears would start flowing. God forbid Odin won, Fraction would probably be burned alive on the Cross.
Yup I finished my bach degree with economics major and philosophy minor and now im at law school. So much stuff to read....no time for comics.
Heh, if it ends up being Galactus vs all of Asgard including Odin in the destroyer armour ill be somewhat sastisfied. At least that will indicate some respect being given towards him. Still holding out hopes though for a stompage and an "I yield oh mighty Galactus" moment.
And that last part about Odin winning is unthinkable. I would personally start a petition to have him fired and the event ruled non-canon.lol
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeI understand that you want a no CIS, not holding back Superman to be devoid of emotion. I also understand that you are likely trying to force this version onto me as if it were exclusive (unintentionally).
Her opinion. He was full of anger, pain, hate, rage. Full of emotion, there we agree.But it doesn't stop here, no sir:
So he plows ahead, confident in his powers, confident in his mindset and his decisions....
he thinks of Lois, he thinks of his parents, but only for a moment, such THOUGHS are dangerous, he knows that NOW.
Because I disagree that having emotions necessarily hinders your capacity to absolutely cut loose. How do I know that? First, because Superman turned into a raging, primal machine like Doomsday. Second, because we've seen Superman turn into a raging engine of destruction because of emotion. Despite Superman's anger, rage and pain, during Sacrifice he was pushed into a state where he no longer cared about innocents or the collateral damage he would cause while murdering Doomsday. I don't have the comic handy but when he hovers over hiis body after he crashlanded to Earh, you see tons of dead people lying around and Superman effectively thinking, "I don't care anymore."
And that's exactly the state Superman needed to keep in to rage alongside Doomsday, forgetting all restraint, all conscience, all morals.
In Imperiex War, the thoughts of Lois and his parents were only dangerous to his capacity to cut loose because their love for, and expectations of, Kal only reinforced his vow to never succumb to mindless violence. In Sacrifice, we see that, when Lois is butchered, Superman can still reach that state of cutting loose because of uncontrolled emotion.
There is no one single way for someone to fight with no CIS, while not holding back. We obviously disagree on which method is best but I don't believe there is a single exclusive one. And Superman's failure to murder a barely holding back Wonder Woman shouldn't reverse-dictate that he wasn't trying to kill and was holding back. in the first place. You can go all-out and fail.
@Philosophia: We disagree. Get over it. I'm not going to walk your hand anymore through simple words like, "He's taking me to the Sun" or "He's holding nothing back" or "I wanted him dead." When you twist simple plain English with your needless projection of some imaginary handicap onto Superman, you can justify almost any sort of view. Doesn't make it any less ridiculous and retarded. This sh1t isn't complicated.
I understand how hopelessly obsessed you are about contradicting plain English because you're worried that someone would use this fight against Superman in some debate. Get over it. That fight was an illustration of the 1/10 chance that a barely holding back Wonder Woman could desperately survive a no CIS Superman out for the kill. I see no reason for the rampant anal bleeding.
Failure to murder Wonder Woman and throw her into the Sun =/= never trying to murder her and never meaning to throw her into the Sun. Paticularly when it's stated in the comic in plain English. And your arguments to the contrary aren't worth the electrons you wasted trying to convince me or the audience in this thread.
Superman was not holding back and meant to murder Doomsday by throwing him into the Sun.
He. Failed.
Butt. Hurt.
Who. Cares.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0...because he inexplicably did the exact opposite by hitting him/her back to Earth - unless he didn't want to kill him but to make him suffer. Which he states, in the same panel where the punching takes place.
Superman was not holding back and meant to murder Doomsday by throwing him into the Sun.He. Failed.
Then, when he had him/her unconscious, on the ground, enough for Max Lord to make a whole speech, Superman just stood there and waited for him/her to wake up .. to use freeze breath and throw a rock at him/her.
Out for the kill Superman?
Right.
Why would I have a problem with this fight being used, when a Superman that was playing out a different fight inside his head still had two chances to kill her, but chose not to take them? DumbGo, please.
Just because we agree to disagree doesn't mean that what you're saying doesn't fail at logic and comprehension.
--
Superman beats Captain Marvel.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Yup I finished my bach degree with economics major and philosophy minor and now im at law school. So much stuff to read....no time for comics.Heh, if it ends up being Galactus vs all of Asgard including Odin in the destroyer armour ill be somewhat sastisfied. At least that will indicate some respect being given towards him. Still holding out hopes though for a stompage and an "I yield oh mighty Galactus" moment.
And that last part about Odin winning is unthinkable. I would personally start a petition to have him fired and the event ruled non-canon.lol
Well congratulations man and good luck. Just be sure to come around when #4 comes out if for no other reason other than to let be rub it in your face or vise versa.
Heh. I think it's safe to say you'll be pretty annoyed at the outcome. How much depends on whether Galactus wins or loses.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaIf you're adamant that there's no possibility that Wonder Woman's own efforts prevented her from being in a position to be knocked into the Sun, then you've assumed your own conclusion. It's stated on-panel that Superman's taking her into the Sun. Wonder Woman wrestles out. In between panels, Wonder Woman is now between Superman and the Sun, and at the moment of punch, has her back towards Earth. You want Superman to have consciously let her off the hook because you cannot countenance that Wonder Woman was able to successfully evade a Sun roasting. How utterly convenient!
...because he inexplicably did the exact opposite by hitting him/her back to Earth - unless he didn't want to kill him but to make him suffer. Which he states, in the same panel where the punching takes place.
He is trying to kill him and he confirms "he tried, oh how he tried." You can't read that any other way. Don't fool yourself. Yes, he also wants him to suffer. Killing him and making him suffer while doing so are not mutually exclusive results that cannot possibly co-exist. Think about any graphic Punisher interrogation or random Spectre vengeance bringing. That you cannot possibly accept them co-existing to set up some false dichotomy that "murdering =/= suffering," just to justify some projection of a handicap onto Superman is sh1t-stained retardation.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaYeah, like heavy handed exposition and the antagonist pontificating his justifications for murder during the attempt is dispositive of murderous intent. People talk during fights. Welcome to comics.
Then, when he had him/her unconscious, on the ground, enough for Max Lord to make a whole speech, Superman just stood there and waited for him/her to wake up .. to use freeze breath and throw a rock at him/her.Out for the kill Superman?
Right.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaSuperman failing to throw her into the Sun because Diana successfully wrestled out =/= Superman's conscious decision to relent. Superman rambling his murderous intent =/= Superman giving Wonder Woman a breather.
Why would I have a problem with this fight being used, when a Superman that was playing out a different fight inside his head still had two chances to kill her, but chose not to take them? DumbGo, please.Just because we agree to disagree doesn't mean that what you're saying doesn't fail at logic and comprehension.
--
Superman beats Captain Marvel.
And I'm not requesting your mutual admission that we have differing opinions. I'm telling you we disagree. Sharply. Because you rely on an inane false dichotomy and plainly ignore simple English. Of course I'd disagree with that. I'm just telling you to get over it.
You picked the wrong argument. You want to continue throwing yourself onto the sword, I can't stop you. I'll still insist that you get over it. Because you really need to. When you're so wrapped up in justifying your own ham-fisted projections onto comics that you think Superman isn't taking her to the Sun:
... and that he never actually tried to kill her:
... yeah. You seriously need to get over it. Don't descend into "Odin stalemated Thanos" levels of delusional troll denial. Cut your losses and, to borrow your quote, "move the f*ck on."
What's the point of proving Superman was holding back, again?
Because, all that proves is Superman opted for torture over death,but still seriously dominated Wonder Woman on a physical level. I don't buy he wasn't trying to kill her, but it's not exactly a black eye for Superman, or say anything about how he'd so vs Cap..
^ Phuck if I know, but let's take a shot: (i) Wonder Woman stated she was barely holding back, which somehow makes her desperately clinging to survival against him... bad... for him... or something; (ii) Superman gets a nice amp from the Sun, and didn't hurt her as much as he hurt Darkseid; (iii) it's somehow expected that a bloodlusted, no CIS Superman wouldn't just dominate Diana, he'd instantly end her.
Or it could be (iv) proving Superman was holding back justifies and permits you to reinterpret plain English like, "He isn't holding back" into the exact opposite of what it means "He is holding back":
Or translating "I wanted to kill him with my bare hands. And I tried. Oh how I tried" into the exact opposite, "Nah, I never really tried to kill him at any particularly point."
Let's think about that now... if you're allowed to draw the completely opposite interpretation from plain English... you can pretty much twist any event in comics your way to fit your rampantly one-sided view of things. It borders on the "universe = multiverse when I want it to be" retardation. Calling that behavior, "semantics," would actually be an insult to semantics. It's retarded, self-serving, sh1t-stained denial. Nothing more, nothing less.
And it's an insult to anybody's intelligence to expect people to take that liberality seriously.
Originally posted by cdtmSuperman proponents need to butcher the Sacrifice fight because they expect and promote the idea that all-out Superman heat vision = instant death for someone like Captain Marvel. The initial impetus of this whole debacle is h1a8 claiming that and carver9 denying that by citing to Sacrifice.
or say anything about how he'd so vs Cap..
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I understand that you want a no CIS, not holding back Superman to be devoid of emotion. I also understand that you are likely trying to force this version onto me as if it were exclusive (unintentionally).Because I disagree that having emotions necessarily hinders your capacity to absolutely cut loose. How do I know that? First, because Superman turned into a raging, primal machine like Doomsday. Second, because we've seen Superman turn into a raging engine of destruction because of emotion. Despite Superman's anger, rage and pain, during Sacrifice he was pushed into a state where he no longer cared about innocents or the collateral damage he would cause while murdering Doomsday. I don't have the comic handy but when he hovers over hiis body after he crashlanded to Earh, you see tons of dead people lying around and Superman effectively thinking, "I don't care anymore."
And that's exactly the state Superman needed to keep in to rage alongside Doomsday, forgetting all restraint, all conscience, all morals.
In Imperiex War, the thoughts of Lois and his parents were only dangerous to his capacity to cut loose because their love for, and expectations of, Kal only reinforced his vow to never succumb to mindless violence. In Sacrifice, we see that, when Lois is butchered, Superman can still reach that state of cutting loose because of uncontrolled emotion.
There is no one single way for someone to fight with no CIS, while not holding back. We obviously disagree on which method is best but I don't believe there is a single exclusive one. And Superman's failure to murder a barely holding back Wonder Woman shouldn't reverse-dictate that he wasn't trying to kill and was holding back. in the first place. You can go all-out and fail.
Ok we disagree, that's ok with me. I think the people can read both fights an decide for themselves what makes more sense to them.
Superman vs WW. Blind with rage and hate. Trying to make her suffer and kill her in the end (or trying to kill her from the go, which version the people read out of it, it's up to them).
Superman vs the Probes, where he plows through them, without emotion, in cold blood if you wish, effective, focused. And we shouldn't forget that single probes could defeat the entire JLA and WW too, a fight between her and a probe (in her Battlearmor w/weapons) alsmost killed her.
The Scans are up.
I see a huge difference, but as said I have no problem with disagreeing, as long as we stay polite, everything is cool.
