Mace defeating Palps

Originally posted by PVS
i dont translate it that way. the way i see it, anakin's turn assures palps' survival, since the one who could defeat him has chosen not to. at that point, since palps cannot be defeated, balance is lost completely.

It's not a matter of translation! He clearly says that the unbalancing occurs after he turns- and the final act is, of course, the destruction of the Jedi.

Palpatine very much could have possibly been beaten. But once he wins, only the Chosen One could have stopped him. But at the time of the Mace fight, he hasn't won yet.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
It's not a matter of translation! He clearly says that the unbalancing occurs after he turns- and the final act is, of course, the destruction of the Jedi.

Palpatine very much could have possibly been beaten. But once he wins, only the Chosen One could have stopped him. But at the time of the Mace fight, he hasn't won yet.

"Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy"

my opinion: only anakin can defeat palps, anakin turns and joins palps, palps has no more enemies capable of killing him...balance is destroyed. i can see the arguement you put forth ush, and i think it is valid. what i fail to see is how there is no room for translation. its all opinion.

what is the point of 'the chosen one' if someone else could have defeated him? then it could have been any powerful jedi who would survive the purge. it could have been kenobi...or yoda...or luke. besides, GL states that anakin is the only one who can kill palps. i can see that you argue that he meant "at that point in the story" and that he wasnt saying that nobody in the PT could defeat palps...but that too is up to translation.

As I agree more with PVS, the only other way i can think of this logically, is if it all boils down to "destiny". So, and ill prolly get a little confusing on this, maybe its not that, "he kills palps cause hes the chosen one" , but more hes the chosen one BECAUSE he kills palps. Know what i mean? Like maybe it want written in stone that one would be born to destroy the Sith, but more like, had Mace been the one to kill Palps, then HE would have been hailed the chosen one. It just so happens to be Anakin that does it. And while they (the jedi) may have seen the end result (anakin destroying palps), they just couldnt see the inbetween times (sith Vader) because of the darkside clouding aspect.

I hope that made sense the way i wrote it, but if not, ask me a direct question as to what i meant and ill do my best to clarify.

well...you forgot the whole immaculate conception thing.
the chosen one was said to have been concieved by the force.
sorry to throw a wrench in your machine 😛

For Sidious losing... it was said that everyone would lose a duel in the movie.. so one would think that Sidious would lose, too. It was pointed out in the most recent HS chat with Rick.

yes...he'll lose, thats not being debated.
whats being debated is if mace actually bests him,
or if palps plays possum (say that 3 times fast) in an
attempt to get anakin to turn (which as we know worked nicely
if this was the case)

Ah, k.

PossumPossumPossum. I think he'd be playing possum to get Anakin to defend him, in turn turning to the dark side. It would work nicely, and I think GL might see that too. Mace might be able to best him, though. Hm... I'd have to think on that. Either way is plausable.

Direct Quote from Mr. Jackson himself:

"...I'm standing there and I'm winning [the lightsaber fight] actually even without Anakin's help up until he steps in and does what he does to turn the tide and that, you know, I go out the way I do. I've been begging not to die in my sleep or get stabbed in the back by, you know, some clone and it didn't happen. So I'm happy." - SLJ

So Mace is in the lead...

Youre right PVS, but im just trying to give us a compelling argument, lol. Im on youre side with this debate. And like you said, Ush's comments are ligitiment, but im with you on the whole, "what the purpose then?" aspect of it.

NO KOZZY!!!!

you have to say "palps plays possum" 3 times fast 😛

and snakebyte, like i said, its well known that mace will seemingly get the better of palps. but who's to say palps would not orchestrate his own defeat, as he's done from the start...you know...orchestrating the occupation of his own world by the federation...allowing the rebels to know the location of the shield generator...putting himself at further risk so that he may reap greater rewards...and what greater a reward than having the 'chosen one' on a leash. palps is one thing above all: overconfident. he proves this time and time again.

and yes subject, i find ush's arguement to be completely valid. i just dont see it as fact.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Commentary on the OT DVDs; Anakin lost his power when he became cybernised, and the Emperor never got what he wanted- hence the Emperor looking to Luke.

he still force choked people though so he didnt lose all his powers

he didnt say he lost ALL his power, just that mech vader is literally half the man he used to be, whether it be physically or in his force powers. doesnt mean he lost it, or became weak in any way. it just means he's not the 'ultimate jedi' anymore...not that he ever was.

Ok, as a fan of the REAL SW, namely the OT, i refuse to incorparate the midichlorian count crap into how strong a jedi is. And even with it, its based off a ratio. Thats how they could tell he had more than Yoda from just a simple blood sample. So even being half the man, he still has the ratio of them, and is still bigger than Yoda. But that wasnt mentioned in the OT so i CHOOSE not to have that be a factor. All that was, was a way to put a scientific explanation to something far beyond science. The way Yoda descibed the force was the best. So i personally dont think having less body mass has anything to do with power...."judge me by my size do you?" And PVS im agreeing with you 100%. I just dont want to seem like im trying to discredit what Ush was saying.

And remember there is a diffeence between beating someone and killing them. Sidious beats Yoda but doesnt kill him.

im not saying that ush is wrong...i'm just saying its up in the air at this point.

but i really think the way im describing could happen as well.
the reason i think this is continuity. in ep4, kenobi sees luke,
he sees that luke sees him dueling with vader. he orchestrated it
that way. the mission was not to defeat vader, but make sure luke sees ben defeated. i can see something very similar in ep3. although mace will seem to get the better of palps, we will notice that palps doesnt get so much as a scratch. kinda like muhammed ali's rope a dope. just to keep him busy until the golden child shows up. once anakin shows up, i think we will see a smirk on palps' face and he will allow mace to get the better of him...however still not leaving so much as a scratch.

thats what im putting my money on.
if i loose, i loose.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
It is BECOMING imbalanced, but it won't be fully so until Sidious wins at the end of Episode III.

"Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy," says GL- the second FOLLOWS the first; it is not out of balance yet, just going that way.

There doesn't HAVE to be a point of the Prophecy. It is just there as a possibility. IF the Force becomes unbalanced, THEN the Chosen one can restore it.

If Palpatine could not be stopped before that point it is ludicrous, totally ludicrous- he may as well just walk into the Temple and kill all the Jedi personally, because nothing can stop him. Instead he enagages in a massively complicated ten year plan that he takes great pains not to let the Jedi de-rail. By any logic, and by GL's words, it WAS possible to stop Sidious first. Just they do not.

I totally agree with you Ush.
Sometimes the simplest explanation comes from GL himself.
We better start listening to the commentary on all the DVD's more carefully (although Lucas contradicts himself from time to time)!

ah yes, lucas' infinate contraditions. just like a woman, GL always reserves the right to change his mind...and oh does he change it.

Originally posted by PVS
ah yes, lucas' infinate contraditions. just like a woman, GL always reserves the right to change his mind...and oh does he change it.

😂 at PVS

okay, try this on.....the prophecy doesn't say that no one other than the chosen one will be CAPABLE of interrupting the chain of events, just that they WON'T.....and what happens?, mace is CAPABLE of besting palpatine, but DOESN'T in the end, while anakin, by the end of the saga, would seem to be very unlikely to pose a danger to palpatine, but does.....this is the nature of prophecy, it's inevitable however unlikely.....

also keep in mind that palpatine's other major power, besides persuasion, is seeing into the future (see the conceptual link to the way a "prophecy" works).....i would assume that he forsees himself losing the duel, but somehow still ending up on top, or even going as far as to "see" anakin's intervention.....and actually has the brass to go into battle knowing that he's taking a risk, but having forseen that the risk will pay off.....so he is genuinely losing, yet his losing is simultaneously a winning move....as you say, a disgusting amount of self confidence (which will eventually be his undoing).....and by the way, i don't have a side on this, i think you both make interesting points, some that could possibly even co-exsist....

i've also been thinking that it could be kinda interesting if we're never quite sure whether palpatine is playing a game or not....and 10 years from now people would still be debating it, with just a few hints either way to keep it interesting.....

Originally posted by PVS
"Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy"

my opinion: only anakin can defeat palps, anakin turns and joins palps, palps has no more enemies capable of killing him...balance is destroyed. i can see the arguement you put forth ush, and i think it is valid. what i fail to see is how there is no room for translation. its all opinion.

No, that is just you backtracking to change the focus of what I was saying. That quote was not given in support of the main point. I gave it to counter YOUR idea that the Force was already unbalanced by the time of the Mace/Palpatine fight. That quote proves, as far as GL is concerned, that it was not.

So as the Force is not yet unbalanced, the Prophecy has not yet become a certainty, and so it is not necessary for it to be the Chosen One that kills Palps.

As soon as that unbalance has occured, only THEN is the Chosen One actually needed.

Any other option destroys the drama of the Prequel Films- one of the whole themes of which is "How does Sidious manage to defeat the entire Jedi Order?". This is actually shown in entertaining detail. If the actual ansdwer is "because it is physically impossible for anyone to stop him" you have just invalidated that entire plot. Luckily this is not so. Sidious is not magically unstoppable at this point- it gets EFFORT for him to pull it off, and it is not at all weird if Mace comes close to beating him.

ok fine ush, we'll see may19.