Who here agrees about Return Of the Jedi?
That it wasnt anywhere near as good as the first two films and did not have the same magic that the first two films in the original trilogy did? I know Mechmoggy does.I was wondering how many others here agree with me on that? The first two films I have seen at least over 60 times each.Guess how many times I saw Return of the jedi? Once and that was enough.Thats how much I hated it.
When I was younger, i used to like ROTJ best, because of the special effects, and luke is much cooler and more powerful in ep6.
However, now I like the first 2 movies better than ep6, as I can appreciate them more than I could when I was younger.
ESB is my favourate film of all time. The "i am your father" line must be one of the biggest plot twists in any major film ever.
Jedi is still my favourite of the trilogy, although Empire is growing on me. The confrontation between Luke, Vader and the Emperor is brilliant.
I was born in '81 and saw Jedi before the other two, and I actually thought that when Luke cut off Vader's hand that it had suddenly become Luke's hand. That scared seven shades of shite out of me.
I disagree. ROTJ is the best one yet. It gives you Vader and Palpitine Vs Luke (And in a way Anakin as well)
It gives you the most emotional duel yet (untill EpIII comes out)
It gives you a huge battle and an incompleted Death Star - Which is the biggest space battle yet (untill EpIII comes out)
Also gives you a very nice ending.
What more could you want?
Originally posted by eXSBassIt gives you liddle, iddy, biddy, cuddly, wuddly Ewoks helping bring the downfall of the Empire, it was by far the worst of the OT, ESB is numbero uno and then ANH - IMHO 😄
I disagree. ROTJ is the best one yet. It gives you Vader and Palpitine Vs Luke (And in a way Anakin as well)It gives you the most emotional duel yet (untill EpIII comes out)
It gives you a huge battle and an incompleted Death Star - Which is the biggest space battle yet (untill EpIII comes out)
Also gives you a very nice ending.
What more could you want?
Yeah true about the Ewoks....(Shudder)
But it helps to see them as a cannon-fodder distraction while the rebels did the real work there....They had the added bonus of seeing many a fuzzy little git blown away while they worked...!!
That had to have the job easier in itself.....
It certainly would've keep my morale up....
Originally posted by Corran
It gives you liddle, iddy, biddy, cuddly, wuddly Ewoks helping bring the downfall of the Empire, it was by far the worst of the OT, ESB is numbero uno and then ANH - IMHO 😄
Im in total agreement with you Corran.The thing that I thought was so incredibly stupid about return of the jedi is how they decided to have Luke and leia become brothers and sisters. 🙄 talk about incense among the family. 😱
It's the worst of all of them.
ESB was originally the mid-point of a nine-film saga. Then GL decided to cut out the last three, and ESB had suddenly become the penultimate film of merely six, and its open ending did NOT suit a transition into a finale where, staggeringly strangley seeing that the Empire is at full pelt at ESB, by the end of the film the Empire is apparently desttroyed.
The start with Jabba's palace- fine. The final Luke.Vader confrontation? Fine- but the Palace bit was inevitable, and the Luke bit would have been there at the end of the original Episode IX anyway.
Everything else is a shambles. The Solo/Leia romance totally falls apart; the magic is gone and Solo has a poor role in the film. Leia is bumped up to being Luke's sister, almost as a convenience as she was the only female now available to do so. The originally planned Wookie fight becomes an Ewok fight, and utterly crass it is too, GL's attempt to make a Vietnam allegory ruined by the sheer cretinous feleing of the situation (GL muchly improves the situation in TPM, whee the plucky underdog Gungans are actually losing the battle) as the apparently unstoppable Empire is beaten by a tribe of teddy bears.
Likewise, for some reason, the entire Imperial fleet cannot seem to overwhelm the Rebels, which makes me wonder why theny ever evacuated from Hoth; in early films it is VERY clear that the Rebels, whilst well-equipped, are far too small for grand battle. ROTJ makes it look like that they should have just attacked the Imperial fleet from the start; looks like they would have won.
And finally, the continuous plot changes and script re-writes destroyed the ending., The ending is MEANT to be that Luke convinces Anakin to kill the Emperor, Balance is restored and the good guys win.
But they forgot to show the change that killing the Emperor meant
Because Luke was totally irrelevant to final victory- the Rebels won that battle anyway, and both Vader and the Emperor would have died. From the events presented by the film, all Luke did was go to Endor, get captured, and then escape. Without any other consequence to his actions in the grander scheme of things, that plot was a TOTAL waste of time; he may as well have just not gone. Ok, he got to see his Dad, but so what? He was on a quest to defeat evil, not visit relatives.
In many early plot versions killing the Emperor is clearly shown as the catalyst of victory. This is not so in the final version- it simply got forgotten in the excitement of it all, especially when the Emperor was moved from the Imperial homeworld to the new Death Star (the Death Star itself, btw, is another example of ROTJ's failing- simply re-using a plot point like that. It's not as if this was a tv series of 200 episodes; there had only been two films and surely something else could have been thought of).
Oh, I know people SPECULATE that if the Emperor had not died, this would have happened and that would have happened and so the Rebels would have lost. But:
a. We shouldn't have to SPECULATE on something so important- it should have been told to or shown to us, directly, on-screen. Killing the Emperor should have been directly shown to make a difference.
b. Nearly all these theories assign powers to the Emperor that we have no evidence for. It seems clear to me that considerably before his death by Vader's hands, his plan had already failed, the Rebels were going to win, and he would have died.
This major flaw destroys the central plot of the whole enterprise.
The dialogue is poorer, the plot is improvised, the main interesting relationship of the trilogy is diminished, and the central plot arc trips over itself. ROTJ is beset by massive problems that make the problems of TPM and AOTC look small fry, by a long margin.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
It's the worst of all of them.ESB was originally the mid-point of a nine-film saga. Then GL decided to cut out the last three, and ESB had suddenly become the penultimate film of merely six, and its open ending did NOT suit a transition into a finale where, staggeringly strangley seeing that the Empire is at full pelt at ESB, by the end of the film the Empire is apparently desttroyed.
The start with Jabba's palace- fine. The final Luke.Vader confrontation? Fine- but the Palace bit was inevitable, and the Luke bit would have been there at the end of the original Episode IX anyway.
Everything else is a shambles. The Solo/Leia romance totally falls apart; the magic is gone and Solo has a poor role in the film. Leia is bumped up to being Luke's sister, almost as a convenience as she was the only female now available to do so. The originally planned Wookie fight becomes an Ewok fight, and utterly crass it is too, GL's attempt to make a Vietnam allegory ruined by the sheer cretinous feleing of the situation (GL muchly improves the situation in TPM, whee the plucky underdog Gungans are actually losing the battle) as the apparently unstoppable Empire is beaten by a tribe of teddy bears.
Likewise, for some reason, the entire Imperial fleet cannot seem to overwhelm the Rebels, which makes me wonder why theny ever evacuated from Hoth; in early films it is VERY clear that the Rebels, whilst well-equipped, are far too small for grand battle. ROTJ makes it look like that they should have just attacked the Imperial fleet from the start; looks like they would have won.
And finally, the continuous plot changes and script re-writes destroyed the ending., The ending is MEANT to be that Luke convinces Anakin to kill the Emperor, Balance is restored and the good guys win.
But they forgot to show the change that killing the Emperor meant
Because Luke was totally irrelevant to final victory- the Rebels won that battle anyway, and both Vader and the Emperor would have died. From the events presented by the film, all Luke did was go to Endor, get captured, and then escape. Without any other consequence to his actions in the grander scheme of things, that plot was a TOTAL waste of time; he may as well have just not gone. Ok, he got to see his Dad, but so what? He was on a quest to defeat evil, not visit relatives.
In many early plot versions killing the Emperor is clearly shown as the catalyst of victory. This is not so in the final version- it simply got forgotten in the excitement of it all, especially when the Emperor was moved from the Imperial homeworld to the new Death Star (the Death Star itself, btw, is another example of ROTJ's failing- simply re-using a plot point like that. It's not as if this was a tv series of 200 episodes; there had only been two films and surely something else could have been thought of).
Oh, I know people SPECULATE that if the Emperor had not died, this would have happened and that would have happened and so the Rebels would have lost. But:
a. We shouldn't have to SPECULATE on something so important- it should have been told to or shown to us, directly, on-screen. Killing the Emperor should have been directly shown to make a difference.
b. Nearly all these theories assign powers to the Emperor that we have no evidence for. It seems clear to me that considerably before his death by Vader's hands, his plan had already failed, the Rebels were going to win, and he would have died.
This major flaw destroys the central plot of the whole enterprise.
The dialogue is poorer, the plot is improvised, the main interesting relationship of the trilogy is diminished, and the central plot arc trips over itself. ROTJ is beset by massive problems that make the problems of TPM and AOTC look small fry, by a long margin.
I assume when you worst of them all that you mean every star wars film made then right? sadly I agree.
as I said before,it just did NOT have the same magic that its two predecessors did.Even Irvin Kirchner who directed Empire strikes back said himself he was very disappointed with Jedi.I cant help but laugh over the people who voted on that one poll that return of the jedi was the best star wars movie.its so laughable the way the film was written its pathetic.the first two films had great scripts,Jedi was laughable.Like you said the dialogue was terrible unlike the first two films.That whole bit at the beginning when c3po was explaining that people who fell into the pit would be devoured and slowly digested for a thousand years? god what horrible screen writing and dialogue.are peoples life spans in the star wars galaxy's all of a sudden a thousand years now? 🙄
It sucked from the beginning to the end.With princess Leia all dressed up in a slave outfit at the beginning to the very end with Darth Vader and Ben Kenobi standing around having a jolly old good time at the end,At that point Anakin should have said something to ben like-Hey Ben remember that time I killed you? because the movie was a joke.The first 30 minutes it started off promising enough that is without that whole thousand year digested scene because it had a lot of action,but it went downhill from there because like you said,they reduced Luke to becoming Leia's brother-how moronic,the acting was horrible and you could tell they were tired of the whole bit because they did not put any passion into it like they did the first two.terrible dialogue as already pointed out and I mean he already had fought darth vader in EMPIRE STRIKES BACK so that was nothing new,been there done that,then the battle at the death star-say hadn't we seen that before in the first film? no originality at all.horrible way to end the whole thing.
I also agree that it makes the problems in TPM and AOTC look like small fry as well.
I hear you Ush, and agree with many points you made there,
But it doesn't look to me like the Rebels had totally murdered the Empire over Endor or anything, it looked fairly near the bone to me.....
Unlike on Hoth as you correctly say....But then the rebels were too few and didn't have enough backup from the other species/inhabitants of the galaxy they all looked human and look like they had a united solid force there like they appeared to in ROTJ...
And the Endor-victory seems like it was only achieved by a massive gathering of pretty much everyone/everything that the rebels seemed to have who fought with the desperation of knowing that if that gamble didn't pay off then it was Doom for the whole rebellion..... sure, the Executor got destroyed, the Death Star got totalled eventually, but look at how few Rebel ships from that massive cohilition actually made it in the end..... And at least the destablisation of the Emipire was depicted at the end of the Special editions and DVD....
I Totally agree that the character development felt totally abandoned in regard to Han and Leia too.... Harrison Ford looked like he was taking the second half of the movie about as seriously as the Holiday Special..
Why was it that after finding out that Luke and Leia were Fanily and not having a relationship etc... Han and Leia's big kiss opportunity moment was like the sort of kiss that you would expect as a mild greeting from a friend or something... Outclassed by the snog that Luke and Leia had in ESB even....! puke No warmth at all........
Well, even if we, for the sake of theory, say you are right about the support for the Rebels, Sadako- no plot reason or indication for such a change was given on screen. Indeed, we were directly given to think that meeting the Imperial fleet would be doom for the Rebels- they only made the strike because they thought the fleet was scattered. Once the Death Star is destroyed, thhe battle seems to end, Why? Why do we imagine that the fleet would then just go away? Or even if we do accept that, why, again, do we have to speculate at ALL? This is not like the Matrix., Star Wars is simple, especially the OT. Things things should be made clear. The first two films were always clear, why not this one?
And it strikes me that the rebel ships there at the end of the battle... seem to be nearly all of the ones there at the start. We see Imperial ships destroyed, but only the Death Star destroys Rebel ones. The TIE fighters go from roughly evens with the X-Wings as they were in ANH, to being destroyed in their dozens.
And even if it WAS close... in the end, the rebels still won, without assistance from Luke, so the biggest problem of all remains. Luke should have been clearly shown as the person who made it possible. Else, what was his point at all?
After having rewatched the OT recently, I'd have to say ROTJ is by far my least favorite...and that's something because I was quite disappointed by TPM.
I think part of the problem with ROTJ was just the fact that it followed after ESB, which is by far the best. There are good bits in ROTJ (the Vader/Luke/Palpatine bits being the highlight of the movie IMO), but so much of it was utterly ridiculous. I mean, c'mon. Ewoks?! The Empire got their asses kicked by teddy bears with rocks and sticks!!! What the hell was THAT?! Han really didn't do anything most of the movie (which peeved me as he was the only of the good guys that didn't regularly irritate me), the whole Luke and Leia being siblings thing seemed tossed on as an afterthought, like "quick, we need another huge revelation...hmm...what now...oooh! Let's make two of them related! 😱", the fact that the Empire had been getting slaughtered by the rebels when in the other movies it was the other way around, with the rebels seemingly only getting away by sheer luck...and reusing the Death Star. They couldn't come up with anything else?! Please.
Yeah. ROTJ was, in general, a joke compared to the rest.
(end long ranty post)
Good points Ush....
Ackbar and the others and the fact that we'd never seen Mon Mothma and so many other characters before kind of sold the idea to me that this was much more of a multilateral attack than ever before...
But aside from that, yep, I'd agree that not much else was an indicator on the "Increased support" issue...
The side-on shots of the falcon and the fighters piling through the swarms of ties at the beginning of the assault ( Just after the pulling-up-from-the-still-active-shield bit ) made it look to me like the rebel (fighters at least) ships were out vastly numbered....
Damn good point about the post Deathstar destruction disappearance of the battle... My thoughts on this were that the order to scatter was given when the DS was being destroyed....because being on top of the imminent would've been disaster for all craft nearby.. I mean, Ackbar gave a similar order on screen...
But yep, whatever semi-eu explaination I could try to apply to it,
like you say, it definitely should've been explained WAY better/clearer than it actually was....
Indeed- the fact that the EU stumped up explanations for this is direct evidence that there was a gap.
I am pretty sure the Imperials were not so dumb to stay next to it when it blew- aside from which, they were specifically not next to it, were they? The fleet had been ordered to stand off, to prevent an escape.