Originally posted by Red Superfly
OK, this is all a bit silly.Think about it logically.
EVERYONE was evacuating the Death Star when it was under attack as Luke and Anakin were leaving. Luke managed to get off the Death Star just in time after Emperor died.
Emperor was dead, killed because of Luke and Anakins actions. How could he evacuate if he was dead?
OK.
So what if Luke wasn't there? Emperor would have evacuated, along with all his troops. The reason The Emperor didn't get off the Death Star when it blew was because "The Chosen One" killed him.
It's speculation on both parts, but there is NO PROOF WHATSOEVER that The Emperor WOULD have died if Luke wasn't there, just as there is no proof he would have evacuated when it was about to blow. There is nothing to disprove the observation that Lukes actions stalled The Emperor, kept him busy.
If Luke hadn't have gone, The Emperor would not have wanted the guards to leave them alone - meaning they would have been there to help him to his ship. Luke being there meant that The Emperor isolated himself from the aide of his lackeys. He told them to leave them alone - his over confidence got the better of him, and nobody came to his aid when things looked bad. It was his own arrogance and Anakins turn that stopped the Emperor leaving in one piece.
It's all down to interpretation, and even since I was a kid, I interpreted it as Vader stopping the Emperor from getting off the Death Star when it was under attack. The Chosen One did his job. He stalled The Emperors evacuation in the best way possible, by throwing him to his death.
Sigh... I cannot believe how many people still do not get the point.
That is speculation
I said this already many times. You can speculate about how it might have woprked all you like, but the film SHOULD have made it clear. I can dispute that speculation easily. Arguments can rage on about it forever. There is no way it should have happened. You are PRESUMING the Emperor would have survived. But from what we are given in ROTJ, we are given no reason to so presume.
"Ush- when talking about Lukes battle in the deathstar having no meaning you are missing a very main point, a point that with ep III will become the point of the entire saga, which is to turn vader back from the dark side."
No I am not missing anything- please read my posts again.
Barcautastic, your idea that the Galaxy was not saved is totally at odds with GL's point about good and evil. The sweeping point of the Star Wars saga is the re-balancing of the Force. Evil must be destroyed.
The point is, still, that the average person watching ROTJ would have no reason to think that only Anakin could have killed the Emperor, and that only Lke could have saved the day. We only know different because we are hardcore fans. It is a very basic error.
And you absolutely cannot get around it by saying "Ahh, but if you look aat it like THIS...". Still people try, but every time you do that, and introduce another idea into thousands of existing ideas, you merely demonstrate the problem.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
The only thing I can think of right now on this is hopefully ROTS will at least leave the doors of possiblity open to a a slight misinterpretation by the Jedi of the prophecy....
IE: That although the chosen one DOES bring balance to the force
(By killing Sidious etc) Maybe it would mean that and ONLY that.
That Anakin kills the Emporer. This could then mean that, granted, a successful attack on the the Death Star with Palps on it might indeed do the job, but the one who saw through the force Anakin doing the deed could've been thinking mistakenly like "Ooooh....The chosen one must be the only one"or by assumption by the hearers of the prophecy....This may seem lateral or silly, but think of this analogy...
If I went but to the States in say...1960 and said
"Hey..! In November '63, this Guy'll shoot JFK in Dallas and his name is Lee Harvey Oswald!" (Whether or not you believe that 😉 ) then that could be true, but then that wouldn't mean that Blowing up the cadillac wouldn't work either... but my prophecy to the people of 1960 would simply state the rifle wielder(s?)got there first and at a certain time place... So it'd be a similar error to assume that only LHO could assassinate JFK-Much like the Emporer,that guy had quite a few enemies at the time and plenty of them may have tried(And the rebels were trying right there) but only LHO (Alledgedly) succeeded there and then...Making him this analogy's "the one in the prophecy" or "APPARENT Chosen one"
Now or course this'd be a big old cock-up of arrogance by the Jedi to make this mistake... But lets face it they're a little blinded in the PT...Your thoughts....?
Afraid not. George Lucas stated that only the Chosen One could do it. Besides which, his plot is otherweise pointless.
Well sure..... Ultimately the chosen one WAS the only one who COULD do it , by virtue of the fact that that he DID do it.
"Chosen one" prophecys don't seem to report runners up it seems.
I do agree with post earlier speculating that Anakin and Lukes clashing and Palps' determination to see that through kept him distracted on the Death Star which would have made Anakin again responsible for Palps' demise even if the Rebels had succeed in the blowing up of the Death Star with Palps' on board.
From a certain point of view.
I do see your point though.
*sigh*
Ush, didn't I say that what I was suggesting was speculation?
I'm saying EVERYTHING is speculation - including what you are saying.
You can't say the rebels would have blown up The Emperor, that's your speculation.
I agree about ROTJ not mkaing it clear enough. You can make many assumptions because of the lack of clarity.
I assumed everything - and I said that in my damn post. You could at least admit that your theory is also based on an assumption, because it is.
"The Emperor would have been blown up by the rebels attack anyway" - THAT is an assumption, not a fact.
Ushgarak, what is your point? Red Superfly's suggestion is a speculation? YES! I agree it is. He even admitted it himself a million times! But he is right, you can't deny the fact that you are speculating as well. Saying the emperor would have gotten blown up if Luke hadn't gone to confront him is also a pure conjecture, because you have no proof it would have happened! Basically Red Superfly is saying "You go with your opinion, I'll go with mine, but the bottom line is WE'RE BOTH SPECULATING!" He's trying to offer a compromisation.
I personally thought ROTJ was a pretty good aswell. Lots of cool action, especially the awesome space battle and lightsaber duel. I agree that the Ewoks were a little annoying at first, but I later got used to them.
i think that A NEW HOPE is the best movie and that A EMPIRE STRIKES BACK is the worst but still the last movie becomes great cause of the final space battle i think it is so cool 🤘 and also because of the thing that they fight several battles trough the movie and that makes the movie not to boring if i say so some movies not necesary STAR WARS get boring cause it doesnt happen something from time to time.but still they are all so good a movie can get.
Originally posted by jedimaster2000
Ushgarak, what is your point? Red Superfly's suggestion is a speculation? YES! I agree it is. He even admitted it himself a million times! But he is right, you can't deny the fact that you are speculating as well. Saying the emperor would have gotten blown up if Luke hadn't gone to confront him is also a pure conjecture, because you have no proof it would have happened! Basically Red Superfly is saying "You go with your opinion, I'll go with mine, but the bottom line is WE'RE BOTH SPECULATING!" He's trying to offer a compromisation.I personally thought ROTJ was a pretty good aswell. Lots of cool action, especially the awesome space battle and lightsaber duel. I agree that the Ewoks were a little annoying at first, but I later got used to them.
Please read what I said, and carefully this time. I already specified, quite clearly, that an important point like this needed to be made clear, and NOT left to speculation. It certainly appears that the Emperor would have died- that is the most direct apparent consequence. But I also pointed out that that was clearly NOT what we were meant to think- that it was nott he original plan but got messed up with script re-writes- yet the most direct interpretation of any person who sees it. Emperor on Death Star, Death Star blows up, Emperor dies- that is what people see.
THAT was my point- it was not made clear, and it damn well should have been.
It is a direct piece of lazy and sloppy scripting, something that hurt ROTJ all the way through.
Saying 'You are speculating also' and thinking that somehow invalidates my point only shows you aren't looking at what I said.
The film did not make clear that the good guys would have lost were it not for Luke (and by extrapolation, Anakin). That point is undeniable. You can speculate that they would or would not- though I am utterly certain that it makes far more sense, from simply watching the film, that Luke made no difference at all, which was not the impression they wanted to make- but that makes no difference. The very point that it has to be speculated upon IS the error.
The central plot point got lost.
""The Emperor would have been blown up by the rebels attack anyway" - THAT is an assumption, not a fact."
See, this is exactly where you are not reading what I am saying properly.
My point is that this is not true. But that is what it looks like! It's not even vaguely a fact, but it is what the average person will think, seeing that film.
So you speculating reasons as to why he would not have died were it not for Luke is irrelevant. It's not in the film, and that is where the film is at fault.
Originally posted by Antillies
i think that A NEW HOPE is the best movie and that A EMPIRE STRIKES BACK is the worst but still the last movie becomes great cause of the final space battle i think it is so cool 🤘 and also because of the thing that they fight several battles trough the movie and that makes the movie not to boring if i say so some movies not necesary STAR WARS get boring cause it doesnt happen something from time to time.but still they are all so good a movie can get.
Well I am glad you at least agree that A New Hope is better than Jedi. 🙂
A New Hope IS better than Return Of The Jedi.
Everytime I watch A New Hope it just becomes better and better. It has a charm to it, it's lighthearted, and yet dark, and fun, and exciting, and I think out of all of them, A New Hope has the best "pace".
ESB is a better movie, and builds up the characters more, but there's no denying just how damn good A New Hope really is.
You know, after reading everything on this thread, I'm about here...
Ush, I still can't say I agree with you. Maybe I'll get an essay for it, but oh well. I just don't see your point. Or rather, I think I do, but you say something else and I find myself lost. You say it -looks- that way? To who? When? Where? How? Has anyone come up to you and said "Oh, hey... Why did Luke even board the Death Star? The Emperor was gonna die anyways." We call those ignorant people. While Star Wars is a saga that attracts millions and has a wide variety of age ranges, I can't honestly expect the third movie in a trilogy to hold people by the hand and explain everything to them like some Sesame Street pop-up book. I watched ROTJ when I was very young. In fact, I saw it before I saw all the others. And it made sense then. I was... let's see... born in 82... saw it maybe a few years later. So a kid under five could make sense of the plot. And you have claimed that there is sloppy plotwriting and whatnot. I won't dispute that. I'm not the expert, and you're talking like you are, so I'll just sit that one out. But you also claim that there should be no room for speculation... or at the very least that is what I get out of your posts so far. I'm not gonna reread for another half an hour to make sure. Not that much worth my time. But anyways, there is room for speculation in a lot of things. The Bible. The Consititution of the United States. The Magna Carta. The Matrix. Braveheart, whatever. Star Wars is not some high-tech documentary. It's science fiction. It's imagination come to life. And what you're asking for is for suspension of imagination. Even if there was sloppy screenplay, it certainly wasn't that noticeable. This is perhaps the first time I've heard of such a case. I don't know. Maybe I don't talk about this all the time with friends. We debate enough as it is over much more important things. But all I'm saying is you have failed to make your point on many fronts, aside from the occassional person who's a ping-pong ball, going back and forth every other post.
And I expect your reply to be lengthy, and totally anti- everything I have said. I expect at least two slight personal insults and perhaps a genral one, addressing all those who do not see eye to eye with you. Let the fun begin, I say.
As much as the "Teddy Bear Picnic" took away from the movie, as well as the extremely small scale of worlds and plot points, I thought that the final lightsaber battle was very emotional, and expressed an appropriate endto Darth Vader and reemergence of Anakin Skywalker.
But...It certainly is the worst of the OT.
Apparently, the emperor's "entire fleet" of his "Best men" were no match for Teddy bears.
Really? Some cavalrymen got exploded didn't they? I dont honestly know what the deal was with those power shield things, i mean what was there plan exactly, stand there and be shot at until the droids grew bored and left.
A huge problem i have with the prequal trilogies is this asstastic suggestion that all the stormtroopers are clone troopers, i can happily accept that the initial core of stormtroopers were clones, that a small percentage of the 'current' Imperal strength is made up of these clones. They made how many clones in AOTC? 10,000 every 10 years or so? x whatever they had in the rack, lets say thats 500,000 every 10 years, inbetween the films II and III is what, 20-25 years? 30-40? At most the Empire gets 2,000,000 troopers quite a lot hm?
Well not when you consider that not only are they engaged in an intergalactic war, they have to police all their planets with an Imperial garrison, when the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in 1941 they had around 2,000,000 soldiers, the Soviets had about 4,500,000 soldiers, considering that this is 2 countires constuting only a small small percentage of the population of the entire planet. The idea that the Empire is able to maintain order with 2 Mil, or even 10 Mil, in however many hundreds of planets (not to mention the thousands of sentient species) is ludicrous.
Furthermore you've then got the problem of the billions and billions of unused manpower on Imperial worlds an average planet should easily be able to produce a million fighting troops, yet the Empire would somehow only produce clones (expensive id imagine) and not only keep the massive populations of thousands of worlds under control but leave billions of potential soldiers and conscripts just sitting around with their thumbs up their arses is a ridiclous suggestion.
Anyhow that was longer than i expected. I just dont like the fact that George has got into his head the idea that all of the men in the Imperial Armed forces are clones, its just improbable. Conscripts are much cheaper and much more available. The end of ROTJ is just bollocks too, Death Star destroyed, massive Imperial Fleet goes, bugger it. Somehow the Emperor controls all of them? excuse me? One Jedi can lift a single fighter out of a swamp using all his concentration and we have someone controlling billions of men fighting, thinking and dying hundreds of billions of kilometers in all directions of the Empire?
Originally posted by Jerico
Really? Some cavalrymen got exploded didn't they? I dont honestly know what the deal was with those power shield things, i mean what was there plan exactly, stand there and be shot at until the droids grew bored and left.A huge problem i have with the prequal trilogies is this asstastic suggestion that all the stormtroopers are clone troopers, i can happily accept that the initial core of stormtroopers were clones, that a small percentage of the 'current' Imperal strength is made up of these clones. They made how many clones in AOTC? 10,000 every 10 years or so? x whatever they had in the rack, lets say thats 500,000 every 10 years, inbetween the films II and III is what, 20-25 years? 30-40? At most the Empire gets 2,000,000 troopers quite a lot hm?
Well not when you consider that not only are they engaged in an intergalactic war, they have to police all their planets with an Imperial garrison, when the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in 1941 they had around 2,000,000 soldiers, the Soviets had about 4,500,000 soldiers, considering that this is 2 countires constuting only a small small percentage of the population of the entire planet. The idea that the Empire is able to maintain order with 2 Mil, or even 10 Mil, in however many hundreds of planets (not to mention the thousands of sentient species) is ludicrous.
Furthermore you've then got the problem of the billions and billions of unused manpower on Imperial worlds an average planet should easily be able to produce a million fighting troops, yet the Empire would somehow only produce clones (expensive id imagine) and not only keep the massive populations of thousands of worlds under control but leave billions of potential soldiers and conscripts just sitting around with their thumbs up their arses is a ridiclous suggestion.
Anyhow that was longer than i expected. I just dont like the fact that George has got into his head the idea that all of the men in the Imperial Armed forces are clones, its just improbable. Conscripts are much cheaper and much more available. The end of ROTJ is just bollocks too, Death Star destroyed, massive Imperial Fleet goes, bugger it. Somehow the Emperor controls all of them? excuse me? One Jedi can lift a single fighter out of a swamp using all his concentration and we have someone controlling billions of men fighting, thinking and dying hundreds of billions of kilometers in all directions of the Empire?
The big problem that I have is Coruscant. A planet-wide city would have to support at least one trillion people. There's no way that a planet could maintain an industrialized population of that gearth. The amount of excriment alone per day would have to equal the mass of a small moon.
Then, I remember that it's supposed to be off-kilter fantasy.
Luke had a very important purpose of confronting Vader and the Emperor on Death Star II in the plot of ROTJ, the classic triliogy and the entire Star Wars saga.
Notice how in ESB Yoda and Obi-Wan had urged Luke to not go to confront Vader, and then in ROTJ Yoda tells Luke that one thing remains before Luke can become a Jedi, confronting Vader. This tells us that Luke was meant to confront Vader all along, and Yoda's last dialogue with Luke reveals why he was urged not to in EBS - Luke wasn't yet ready to confront Vader. Confronting Vader (and Palpatine) are symbolic of Luke confronting his own evil nature - the symbolism is pretty overt in ROTJ alone.
Why is confronting his own Dark Side a requirement for Luke to become a Jedi? Because he must pass the same trials that his father failed at. Luke's greatest movie moment (besides the destruction of the original Death Star) is when he is about to destroy Vader out of anger and hatred, but instead chooses good, throwing the lightsaber away and announcing to the Emperor that he has failed. As much as Yoda and Obi-Wan feared the possible bad outcome, they knew that the future of the galaxy rested on Luke's denial of the dark side, not taking the same path that his father before him had. It was Luke's denial of evil which inspired the compassion of Anakin to choose good and destroy the evil Sith master of the Empire (which was Anakin's redemption for his evil choices).
This idea is even used in the climax of TPM. Obi-Wan was granted the title of Jedi Knight (and given Anakin as his padawan) after he defeated a Sith lord who he watched kill his own master, and Obi-Wan accomplished this without resorting to the Dark Side. Obi-Wan rose above and beyond the role of a Padawan and so he did not need to face the "Jedi trials" to achieve the status of Jedi Knight, because his successful destruction of Maul without evil was his personal trial. Of course Obi-Wan had it much easier than both Anakin and Luke, because he was raised from early childhood in the traditional Jedi manner which minimizes emotional attachment.
Lucas has shown he's a big fan of parallels. I have honestly avoided most ROTS spoilers (even on this site), but I have always felt (even before I saw TPM) that Episode III will show Anakin being in a very similar situation that Luke was in on Death Star II, except that Anakin fails and chooses evil, crossing over to the Dark Side. That will make Luke's choice in ROTJ even much more emotionally meaningful than it was without the prequel trilogy. So the next generation that gets to see each Star Wars movie for the first time in chronogical order will experience a slightly different tension in the drama of ROTJ. Will Luke make the same choice that his father did when in a similar situation?
Anakin could not be the Chosen One and destroy Darth Sideous if it hadn't been for Luke passing his trial. If anyone reads this post and still feels that Luke didn't do anything important to the plot of Star Wars during the Battle of Endor, in my humble opinion you're on crack. 😎
And I'm not a die-hard Ewoks fan or anything, but I understand Lucas' symbolism and I don't have any real problem with their role in ROTJ (Of course I'm also one of those fans that actually think Jar Jar is funny.) Just like R2 getting fried and Luke turning off the targeting computer in the Battle of Yavin, the Ewoks demonstrate the theme that technology will not save us.
And yes, the Han-Leia love story arc is just a simple resolution. Not that dramatic, but not the main plot point of ROTJ either. And of course Han could not possible be as cool of a character in ROTJ as in the first two films, because it was his final ultimate joining of the Rebellion, the solo man finally fighting for the good cause after the final resolution of Solo-Jabba story arc. Han giving up his independence (in both becoming an Alliance general and also professing his love for Leia), is the end of that original Han Solo character we grew to love in the first two films. So I agree that Han is not as cool in ROTJ as in ANH and ESB, but that is a necessary part of the story. Han could not stay Solo.
And Lucas has stated that the purpose of Leia being Luke's sister is to maintain the story tension (back then) that Luke is expendable ("No, there is another"😉. Movies are a bit more exciting if you are not 100% sure that one of the main characters will not die. It helps that death-defying adventurous drama work better. I feel that Vader baiting Luke by mentioning the idea of crossing Leia over to the Dark Side is a very nice touch of a plot point, the one thing that nearly crossed Luke over.
And I urge all Star Wars fans to reserve final judgement of the entire saga and its plot structure until we have seen the entire saga. Like I tried to demonstrate, ROTS should cast ROTJ into a new light. Not long now before Star Wars is finally complete...