Actually, if Luke hadn't gone, Vader would not have turned right?
Luke saved Vader. Luke saved Anakin. That's why he was there. He was saving his father.
Not only that, but Luke pre-occupied The Emperor. The Emperor was so caught up with trying to turn Luke and bump off Vader that he was blind to the possibilities of what the Rebels could achieve. The light side was clouding HIS vision.
If Luke was not there, I'd bet my ass Vader and Emperor would be focussed on the Rebel Attack and would evacuate the station as soon as the shield generator went down.
I mean, the Rebel strike had a million to one chance of working. The Emperor saw it as a secondary task to turning Luke. If Luke wasn't there, the Emperor would have focussed all of his attention on the rebel strike. They'd be screwed.
That's MY take on the whole thing. Even when I was a kid I always assumed Luke was the Rebels "decoy" so that he would keep The Emperor and Vader busy while they attacked the Death Star.
True, it's all open to speculation, though.
I agree that some of the elements could have been tied up better. Just because the Death Star was destroyed (again) doesn't mean that the battle was over unless the Empire left like a bunch of sissy cowards. To me the biggest plot hole at the end was the Endor Armageddon. After the Death Star blew up the massive wreckage and debris should have rained down on the planet killing most of the ewoks and rebels. One might could argue that it all burned up when it entered the atmosphere (I might could buy some of that). Still! 😬
But I disagree that Luke's impact was pointless. Certain events will play out in Episode III that might make this clearer.
Spoiler:
The clones will turn evil. I believe this is due to Palpatine controlling them somehow through the dark side of the force. If it is indeed revealed that Sidious controls all of his troopers, then confronting the Emperor would have been crucial in helping the rebels defeat the Empire. Sids would be distracted and due to his overconfidence he might not have been influencing his storm troopers as effectively. When Luke kills the Emperor it throws everything into chaos.
Also, it was clear that everyone was evacuating the Death Star at the end of ROTJ. The Emperor and Vader could have escaped much in the way Luke escapes with Vader's body right before the explosion. As overconfident as the Emperor was, I would hope he had learned his lesson from Death Star # 1 and would not repeat the mistake of Grand Moff Tarkin.
🤣
Also due to the prophecy of the chosen one, the rebels could not have achieved victory unless Anakin killed the Emperor first. This prophecy had to be fulfilled. If Anakin did not kill Sids right there, then the death star could not have blown up. The force had a much better way for Sids to meet his end.
For all we know Sidious could have used the force to make the Millenium Falcon and Wedge's X-Wing miss the reactor much the same way Luke used the force to make his shots meet his target in ANH.
So what if the Emperor had evacuated? As, apparently, the Rebels won that battle he couldn't have escaped.
"For all we know Sidious could have used the force to make the Millenium Falcon and Wedge's X-Wing miss the reactor much the same way Luke used the force to make his shots meet his target in ANH.
That dooms what you say as a counterargument. That does exactly what I criticised above- this is a HUGE piece of speculation, assuming powers we did not see.
Not only do I find that speculation improbable (though far more probable than the very weird idea that Sidious somehow helps control every trooper in the Galaxy), the very fact that you are having to speculate on it is the VERY PROBLEM.
Furthermore, you cannot say that something has to be so because of the Prophecy and that is it... because ROTJ has to stand on its own as well, and we didn't know of the Prophecy at this point. Besides which we all know it was MEANT to be that defeating the Emperor is the important point- GL said so enough times, before the new films were made. Point is, the film simply does not reflect this. The link should have been shown and made, not assumed- aside from anything else, it only CAN be assumed by people like us, die-hard fans with extensive knowledge, which is simply not good enough. Like I said, this isn't the Matrix.
"Luke saved Vader. Luke saved Anakin. That's why he was there. He was saving his father."
Spectacularly missing my point. Saving his father- WHY? The only dramatic purpose in saving Vader is so Vader can balance the Force. If this would have happened (i.e. Sidious dies) anyway, it has no dramatic point and Luke might as well not have gone.
If you look at the earlier drafts of ROTJ, destroying the Emperor has far more independant significance, But it got lost amongst all the plot changes- and they totally forgot to give it any visible significance in the film at all.
Everything anyone can possibly speculate about this issue is totally useless- it just demonstrates the problem. We should not have to speculate, we should know. It is a terrible piece of film design. The Emperor was made to seem totally irrelevant to events.
Well, I can safely say that I will not choose to speculate on anything at the risk of being sent a rather large reply by Ush. 😛
I'd just like to say that I agree about Han. He went from being the badass mercenary in ANH, and even having his tough demeanor in ESB, to being the comic relief in ROTJ. It's like what LOTR did to Gimli, I hated it. And the Ewoks....*shudder* so much for the might of the Empire.
You know, we never do see many (if any) actual Rebel forces on Endor, we mainly just see Ewoks fighting. Aside from the Rebels captured after entering the shield generator bunker, the only Rebellion forces we see are Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and the droids. Where did everyone go?
Something else that bugged me was the celebration at the end. It looked so fake, no emotion at all. And Lando clapping....*shudder again* I really only liked the lightsaber duel, pretty much the only part of ROTJ I actually liked.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
...the very fact that you are having to speculate on it is the VERY PROBLEM...The link should have been shown and made, not assumed- aside from anything else, it only CAN be assumed by people like us, die-hard fans with extensive knowledge, which is simply not good enough...Everything anyone can possibly speculate about this issue is totally useless- it just demonstrates the problem. We should not have to speculate, we should know.
I agree with the fact that we should not have to assume some of these things. The general public will not do so and in turn will dislike the movie for some of these reasons. Then again the GP may not care as much as us die-hard fans.
I also disagree. Speculation is part of what makes Star Wars great. There were alot of things GL did not just come out and make abundantly clear in the originals that he is explaining now in the prequels. It was never made clear why Vader was more machine than man (except in EU) until now. Much of the public will be like, "Oh...Ohhhhhhh!" when that revelation is made. Everyone hails ESB as the greatest SW movie (I tend to agree), but if one wanted to they could pick apart different aspects of that movie as well. In some ways, I kind of fear that Lucas will take the opposite approach for Episode III and explain things overly, much like he did with the force and midichlorians in Episode I. I really hope that the whole force-afterlife issue does not turn into a pile of crap as I fear it will (Hayden in ROTJ).
I withhold complete outright criticism for some of these movies until the final movie comes out and we can really see the saga as a whole. 🙂
Originally posted by ArthasKnight
Something else that bugged me was the celebration at the end. It looked so fake, no emotion at all. And Lando clapping....*shudder again* I really only liked the lightsaber duel, pretty much the only part of ROTJ I actually liked.
You know, now that you mention it, that whole thing with Lando clapping bothers me alot too!! 🤨
Jedi would've been better if Han died, but that's about it.
I liked the Ewoks, but then I always like the underdogs.
The speeder-bike-thingy was cool too.
The point of Luke going to confront Vader is in the title of the film. Kenobi and Yoda both told him that he had to face Vader to become a Jedi. It showed the power of the light side and the ultimate redemption of Vader.
The Imperial fleet was under instruction merely to prevent the escape of the rebels so that the Emperor could build the anger in Luke and try to turn him. IMO, from the Emperor's view, the battle was as much about turning Luke as it was destroying the rebels.
Originally posted by DarkYodaSpoiler:
The clones will turn evil. I believe this is due to Palpatine controlling them somehow through the dark side of the force. If it is indeed revealed that Sidious controls all of his troopers, then confronting the Emperor would have been crucial in helping the rebels defeat the Empire. Sids would be distracted and due to his overconfidence he might not have been influencing his storm troopers as effectively. When Luke kills the Emperor it throws everything into chaos.
Spoiler:
He doesn't control them through the force, he orders them to turn on the Jedi and on the Republic. He is the Emperor, and they bow to his wishes. They're not programmed, but they're taught to obey orders. We'll definately be seeing a lot of this in ROTS. When Sidious dies, it does nothing to throw anything into chaos. He doesn't control them through the force, they're just obeying orders. And when he's killed, the command will go to the next in line, which basically are the Imperial Officers. And by that time, they all weren't from the same host, so everything's a bit mixed up anyway. They're loyal troops, not bound by the force.
Okay. Let's see if we can get this whole thing under wraps.
And let's think logically...speculation aside.
This goes along with what baracustastic said.
Everybody is assuming that the whole point was that the Emperor needed to be killed. That isn't it at all. It was first a rescue mission for Vader, and also a necessary trial for Luke. Luke went with the intention of saving Anakin, and becoming a Jedi...not to kill the Emperor. He told Leia that was his plan before he left. He was going to turn him "back...to the good side." He was very overconfident that he could do that too...and he was totally unprepared when Vader didn't turn to good.
Luke: "That was why you couldn't destroy me. That's why you won't bring me to your emperor now..."
Vader: ignites his saber
(Best scene in the whole trilogy IMO)
Yoda told him it was the last thing he needed to do to become a Jedi. At that point he became a Jedi.
Vader: "Your skills are now complete...INDEED you ARE powerful!"
He wanted Vader to join him and then together they would stand a chance against Palpatine. Vader did not join him of course.
So then it was no longer about Luke helping the rebels but Luke surviving the wrath of the Emperor and avoiding turning to the dark side. The Jedi were almost wiped out... Luke was the last Jedi left. That is why it is so significant. Not that the emperor had to be killed, but that the Jedi had to survive. Luke was cornered and in danger. At that point, he really couldn't do much to help the rebel cause except survive. The Emperor even taunted him about his friends that he couldn't help.
And this is emphasized when Luke tosses his lightsaber and says the Emperor has failed.
Luke: "I am a Jedi...like my father before me!"
Vader eventually stepped up, saved his son..and ultimately the Jedi order. Luke could then escape and continue the Jedi order with the happiness and closure that he saved his father who also saved him.
That's what it is all about!! ✅
However, I do kind of dislike the whole force ghost thing at the end of ROTJ. Like someone said earlier, Anakin probably nudges Obi-Wan and says, "Hey...remember that time I killed you a couple of movies back..." And then Obi-Wan laughs and even Yoda gets in on the action like,
Spoiler:🤨
"Heh. All the younglings, killed you did! Not very nice, that was!"
Luke: "Soon I'll be dead...and you with me!"
Luke was aware that if the rebels succeeded it would not matter if he defeated the Emperor or not. In fact he realized later that the only way he could do so was by turning to the dark side and he refused to do so.
Luke: "I am a Jedi...like my father before me!"
Mon Mothma even revealed earlier in the movie that the rebels planned to blow up the death star especially because the Emperor himself was going to be there overseeing things. Luke understood this. He did not originally plan to have to confront the Emperor. He wanted to save his father and keep him from being destroyed also. 😉
P.S. I am sorry about the 3 posts in a row. 😬
Well, yes, it is said in ROTJ that they were going after the Death Star because of the Emporer being there...but as was seen, people were evacuating the Death Star; Luke and Vader escaped this way. What's not to say that the Emporer couldn't have escaped? So defeating the Emporer WAS a very important bit. Just the significance of destroying the Emporer wasn't shown to be as big a deal as it really was.
"The prophecy means the force will be brought back into balance. Lucas said the Sith order creates the imbalance, by both Vader and Sidious dying, the force is brought back into balance."
Umm...not really...for one thing, I doubt Lucas had the prophecy in mind while making ROTJ (though I could be mistaken...it DID come out 3 years before I was even born, so someone please correct me if I'm mistaken), and like Ush said, it's supposed to be able to stand on it's own. And nowhere does it say that Vader had to die in order to bring the Force back into balance. By destroying the Emporer and turning back the light side he balanced the Force; had he not died the Force would have still been in balance.
"though far more probable than the very weird idea that Sidious somehow helps control every trooper in the Galaxy"
OMG...EU comes up with some pretty weird stuff, but that one just floored me with how ridiculous it was...
And slightly off-topic (but not really as it has to do with ROTJ)...but I am SO sick of hearing people say that Anakin's ghost at the end should be him as how he was before turning to Vader because "Anakin died when he turned to the Dark Side and became Vader!" Uh, DUH, didn't Vader turn back to the light side at the end of ROTJ before dying? That very fact blows that lame explanation out of the water...not to mention that he was STILL Anakin, dark side or no. Ghost Anakin at the end of ROTJ should not have been young Anakin. Damnit.