"Its a power up technique. Its not a physical combat technique. It makes Goku faster and stronger."
If it enchants his strenght and speed, in order to do more *pyshical* damage, how is it not a physical attack? The Manga shows more than just the kayoken.
- - -
"In all fairness Superman wasn't expecting for John to attack him like that. Need I bring up the time Krillin tagged Goku with a rock unawares? That and Vegeta has dropped Goku with a blow while he was looking the other way."
Sure you can. Just keep in mind the rock incident its anime filler and not in the manga.
The Vegeta incident its not a low. Its akin to Superman and Captain Marvel. They are mostly even and either one can ko the other. Vegeta did in that one. Taking an advantage for sure but then again so has CM.
- - -
"Aside from few mountains and Islands they threw each other through, not much until Freeza fired his death ball at the planet."
And that isent......enough? Since when busting mountains and islands while figthing your opponents isent top tier material?
Think about it, when was the last time Thing leveled down/destroyed a mountain? Or even slighty less?
- - -
"Again Superman has shown strength enough to knock people half way across the solar system. Goku's punches have never knocked anyone more than a few miles. "
And neither have alot of top tiers. And yet they are top tiers. Why? Because we dont judge strenght with only one kind of example.
- - -
"Thanos and the Jugernaut have both faught people who do have great lifting feats. By comparing their strength to those they fought. For example Thanos physically over powers the hulk from that we can see that he stronger. If Goku had fought anyone who's strength level is known I'd say fair enough. "
Thats exactly where im getting at. Direct comparation of strenghts. They bust mountains, cities and islands and yet, they arent considered top tier?
The very fact they seem mostly hurt when punching each other instead going against mountains and the like should be a big enough hint, IMO.
- - -
"Goku has shown near limits in his strangth. The small mountain pushing feat in the Kid Buu battle was near SS2 Goku's maximum. The same feat would not tax Superman which is why I assume Goku is the weaker "
A couple of notions:
First, that scene never happened in the Manga. They just fight and Goku starts with the level of SS3 from the get - go, in order to try to beat him.
Second, Superman has strained with alot less than a mountain and more than once. Daily planet Globe and planes come to mind.
Third, if we counted the anime scene, it would only cement his place as top tier. Definatly. Being buried with a mountain and break it in two by separating each part off of him, its a high top tier feat. Thing never came close to a feat like that and hes in the class below.
I think the most erractic assumption here in the end is that Superman is *alot stronger* than the rest of the TT. He isent. He isent *that* stronger than Wman, the same way Thor isent. The same way he isent *that* stronger than WW as well. Sure there is a difference between WW/Wman and > Thor/Hulk/Superman/Hercules, strenghtwise. But its one of shades below, not twice as much or even close.
If your top tier in strenght, you can do good with any other in that regard. In true even if your Thing level, you can look good against a high tier. Add that to a higher powerlevel and figthing skills and its clear to me why i prefer him to take a majority, here.
I'm not saying that Goku isn't top tier. His vesatility and sheer power level make him an extremly powerful oponenent. What I'm saying is that he still isn't as strong as Superman.
First, that scene never happened in the Manga. They just fight and Goku starts with the level of SS3 from the get - go, in order to try to beat him.Second, Superman has strained with alot less than a mountain and more than once. Daily planet Globe and planes come to mind.
I'm well aware of that. It also Goku's highest feat of strength. So its worth using even if its not strickly canon. Superman hasn't strained with those things in rescent years. Unless we're using Byrne era Superman.
Sure you can. Just keep in mind the rock incident its anime filler and not in the manga.The Vegeta incident its not a low. Its akin to Superman and Captain Marvel. They are mostly even and either one can ko the other. Vegeta did in that one. Taking an advantage for sure but then again so has CM.
And neither is being taken by suprise by someone with the most powerful weapon in the universe.
And that isent......enough? Since when busting mountains and islands while figthing your opponents isn't top tier material?Think about it, when was the last time Thing leveled down/destroyed a mountain? Or even slighty less?
I wasn't aware this was a Thing versus Goku argument. I'm not saying that Goku isn't impressive just that he isn't as impressive as Superman.
And neither have alot of top tiers. And yet they are top tiers. Why? Because we dont judge strenght with only one kind of example.
If say the Jugernaut punched somone with all his might behind it and taht person is knocked a few miles. I'd think: hmm he can't be as strong as Superman as their feats of punching are so far apart.
How exactly am I supposed to determine the strength of a superhero? Apparently lifting or distance thrown by punches can't be used. What can I use?
king ki taught goku the spirit bomb and the gravity training is phyisical
Indeed he did but it still isn't a physical cose comabat move. The gravity training made him stronger, it didn't improve his martial art skills.
"I'm not saying that Goku isn't top tier. His vesatility and sheer power level make him an extremly powerful oponenent. What I'm saying is that he still isn't as strong as Superman."
Of course he isent stronger (talking physically only here). No one of good sense would claim that. But he is high in that regard, at least high on a level where he can hurt him.
- - -
"I'm well aware of that. It also Goku's highest feat of strength. So its worth using even if its not strickly canon. Superman hasn't strained with those things in rescent years. Unless we're using Byrne era Superman"
One of the straining with the plane examples its post death era.
- - -
"I wasn't aware this was a Thing versus Goku argument. I'm not saying that Goku isn't impressive just that he isn't as impressive as Superman"
Im using classes comparation because it seems there is a *suggestion* that Superman is head and shoulders above the top tier. At least in this thread.
The Thing example is to clarify how they relate to top tier. Hes a total class below and doesnt have a single mountain or island feat or even below that. And yet he can fight top tiers.
What would be the reason of Goku, being higher than him, not doing at -the very least- the same.
- - -
"How exactly am I supposed to determine the strength of a superhero? Apparently lifting or distance thrown by punches can't be used. What can I use?"
You have to find a midway between all those. Direct comparations are of course the best way to gauge strenght, since we are watching two opponents comparing themselves in a fight. Thus why we know Marvel is Superman equal more or less even if compared with Superman he has zero lifting feats in continuity.
- - -
"Indeed he did but it still isn't a physical cose comabat move. The gravity training made him stronger, it didn't improve his martial art skills."
You didnt asked for a combat skilled move. You ask a physical attack. And thats what a kayoken exactly is.
If you want skill moves, read the manga and check for it.
I don't even think Goku would be able to do a lot of damage to Superman. Maybe a srcatch or two or a busted lip but that's it, he can't win. Goku's also not stronger than the Hulk, he gets stronger from every battle & from his anger so the more Goku hurts him, the better the chances are for the Hulk.
Cheers to Galvaclaw for the common sense displayed.
Same to you. Most of these Goku versus Superman arguments are full of idiots. It's good arguing with someone who knows about both characters.
One of the straining with the plane examples its post death era.
Interesting. Got any scans? That would be a show of poor writing of scale rarely seen in comics. It'd be like Spiderman being unable to lift a cinderblock or most of the fights in all Access.
The thing to note is I see Superman the same way Grant Morrison sees him. Which is conveniently they way the DC editorial staff have seen him since OWAW.
Im using classes comparation because it seems there is a *suggestion* that Superman is head and shoulders above the top tier. At least in this thread.
He is under special circumstances. when stressed Superman's solar adsorption rapidly increases. I like to call this his Crisis form. This is when he shows a much higher power level than normal during company events. Examples include the whole king of world event, OWAW and Infinite crisis. We're not using this Superman though. Unless Goku jumps him during the middle of Infinite crisis or something Superman will indeed be on par with Marvel/Wonderwoman.
This will be a good fight. Going on for quite a while. I think In the end though Superman will come out on top.
Goku's also not stronger than the Hulk, he gets stronger from every battle & from his anger so the more Goku hurts him, the better the chances are for the Hulk.
I personally think Goku would thrash the Hulk. Goku doesn't have Superman's tendency to only use his speed when necessary. Hulk will never hit Goku no matter how mad he gets. Hulk could try a thunderclap but how will that work against someone who can move much, much faster than sound? A few Kienzan discs later and Hulk is out.
Originally posted by White Reeper
i no more about goku then all of u
When you go all around forums saying you know more about something than everybody it means you don't know anything you little dumb idiot. If you know more than everybody you'd contribute to the debate so shut the **** up. You don't know more about anything than anybody. Not about DBZ or anything else.
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Same to you. Most of these Goku versus Superman arguments are full of idiots. It's good arguing with someone who knows about both characters.Interesting. Got any scans? That would be a show of poor writing of scale rarely seen in comics. It'd be like Spiderman being unable to lift a cinderblock or most of the fights in all Access.
The thing to note is I see Superman the same way Grant Morrison sees him. Which is conveniently they way the DC editorial staff have seen him since OWAW.
He is under special circumstances. when stressed Superman's solar adsorption rapidly increases. I like to call this his Crisis form. This is when he shows a much higher power level than normal during company events. Examples include the whole king of world event, OWAW and Infinite crisis. We're not using this Superman though. Unless Goku jumps him during the middle of Infinite crisis or something Superman will indeed be on par with Marvel/Wonderwoman.
This will be a good fight. Going on for quite a while. I think In the end though Superman will come out on top.
I personally think Goku would thrash the Hulk. Goku doesn't have Superman's tendency to only use his speed when necessary. Hulk will never hit Goku no matter how mad he gets. Hulk could try a thunderclap but how will that work against someone who can move much, much faster than sound? A few Kienzan discs later and Hulk is out.
I happen to have a lot of knowledge about all three characters like you two. The only idiot I see here is White Reeper.
I still think that the Hulk would defeat Goku. Even if Goku manages to cut him in half, he won't know about the Hulk's regenerative ability at first so the Hulk would heal & continue to fight. Although you are right about Goku having speed on the Hulk which would be the hardest thing for the Hulk to keep up with. I say that the Hulk has Goku in strength but all he'd have to worry about is catching him & delivering a few punches & a sonic clap for the win. The easiest way for the Hulk to catch Goku would be if he tries to use IT seeing how he needs concentration to use it.