If god loves everybody equally....

Perhaps you should study Philosophy 101 because "A > B; B > C; C > D" is not only a valid argument, it is also sound.

Clearly, you aren't understanding what im saying.

You can only have knowledge of something before hand if there is something to have knowledge of. The result of a choice does not exist until after the choice has been made, therefore there is nothing to have knowledge of before hand.

Nothing exists until it exists. Its irrelevant if the result of choice exists, because we are talking about foreknowledge here. Just as an action or an event may have never occured yet, foreknolwedge makes for pre awareness.

One does have to follow what is known by foreknowledge for foreknowledge to be accurate. If one is free to do differently then what is known by foreknowledge, then foreknowledge would be wrong.

You just said right there, if somebody is free to do something other than what foreknowledge knows. But as ive pointed out, that is a faulty argument. Making a choice has no bearing on whether or not foreknowledge can exist. Foreknowledge doesnt constrain ones ability to make a choice. One was free to do what they wanted to, but foreknowledge is pre existing knowledge of what they do with that freedom. You are suggesting that they change it but there is nothing to change because it was never forced. It was their choice.

Originally posted by clickclick
Clearly, you aren't understanding what im saying.

Nothing exists until it exists. Its irrelevant if the result of choice exists, because we are talking about foreknowledge here. Just as an action or an event may have never occured yet, foreknolwedge makes for pre awareness.

You just said right there, if somebody is free to do something other than what foreknowledge knows. But as ive pointed out, that is a faulty argument. Making a choice has no bearing on whether or not foreknowledge can exist. Foreknowledge doesnt constrain ones ability to make a choice. One was free to do what they wanted to, but foreknowledge is pre existing knowledge of what they do with that freedom. You are suggesting that they change it but there is nothing to change because it was never forced. It was their choice.

For foreknowledge to be possible, one's choices must be fixed. If one's choices are not fixed, then it is possible for him to choose differently than it is known he will choose, and foreknowledge would be wrong. But if one's choices are fixed, they are predetermined and really not choices at all.

For foreknowledge to be possible, one's choices must be fixed.

Choice signifies a selection, one can not have a choice if there was no other option. And the truth of the matter is that prior to anything happening, it isnt in existence. So to argue that foreknowledge is not possible because something has yet to happen, is clearly faulty. As foreknowledge itself implies the knowledge of something before it happens.

If one's choices are not fixed, then it is possible for him to choose differently than it is known he will choose, and foreknowledge would be wrong. But if one's choices are fixed, they are predetermined and really not choices at all.

Again, what is the basis for foreknowledge? Anything that is yet to happen, can not be fixed in that time. As it is, yet to exist or has yet to take place. Your argument seems to actually be against the possibility of foreknowledge as quite clearly, foreknowledge itself wouldnt conflict with free will.

I could repeat myself over but this entire argument is unproductive.

Ill lay this out as follows and hopefully this will be my last post on the subject.

Foreknowledge is knowledge or awareness of something before its existence or occurrence. Thats it.

There is nothing in that concept that requires everything must be forced and controlled for foreknowledge to be possible. That is merely a stipulation that YOU would like to put on it.

Free will is the ability or discretion to choose.

Those two things clearly do NOT conflict. Foreknowledge can simply function as an awareness of what one does with their ability to choose.

Anyway....

Originally posted by clickclick
Choice signifies a selection, one can not have a choice if there was no other option. And the truth of the matter is that prior to anything happening, it isnt in existence.

This is exactly the point; If choices are predetermined, then they are not really choices at all.

Originally posted by clickclick
So to argue that foreknowledge is not possible because something has yet to happen, is clearly faulty. As foreknowledge itself implies the knowledge of something before it happens.

It may be the nature of omniscience to be aware of something before its existence but it does not follow from this that omniscience is existent or even possible. It is the nature of a time machine to be a device by means of which one can travel through time but it does not follow from this that 1.) time machines exist or 2.) that if they did, that they could indeed travel through time.

Originally posted by clickclick
Again, what is the basis for foreknowledge? Anything that is yet to happen, can not be fixed in that time. As it is, yet to exist or has yet to take place. Your argument seems to actually be against the possibility of foreknowledge as quite clearly, foreknowledge itself wouldnt conflict with free will.

Foreknowledge does conflict with free will. For foreknowledge to be possible, the future must be fixed, and if the future is fixed, choices are not free.

Originally posted by clickclick
I could repeat myself over but this entire argument is unproductive.

Ill lay this out as follows and hopefully this will be my last post on the subject.

Foreknowledge is knowledge or awareness of something before its existence or occurrence. Thats it.

There is nothing in that concept that requires everything must be forced and controlled for foreknowledge to be possible. That is merely a stipulation that YOU would like to put on it.

Free will is the ability or discretion to choose.

Those two things clearly do NOT conflict. Foreknowledge can simply function as an awareness of what one does with their ability to choose.

Anyway....

It is impossible to have knowledge of the results of choices that have not yet been made. Therefore, foreknowledge is only possible if the future already exists. And if the future already exists, it is predetermined, and choices are not truly free.

Foreknowledge does conflict with free will. For foreknowledge to be possible, the future must be fixed, and if the future is fixed, choices are not free.

The concept of foreknowledge, I have already posted. That clearly did not conflict with free will. If a person did everything that was known, can one logically conclude that this means they were forced? Absolutely not. And since a choice is between selections and that is the extent of it, then there is nothing for foreknowledge to conflict with.

It is impossible to have knowledge of the results of choices that have not yet been made. Therefore, foreknowledge is only possible if the future already exists. And if the future already exists, it is predetermined, and choices are not truly free.

Again, you are violating the concept of foreknowledge by making your statement. Even if the future already existed, that does not mean that anything was predetermined.

Originally posted by clickclick
The concept of foreknowledge, I have already posted. That clearly did not conflict with free will. If a person did everything that was known, can one logically conclude that this means they were forced? Absolutely not. And since a choice is between selections and that is the extent of it, then there is nothing for foreknowledge to conflict with.

It is not my argument that one is forced but that his choices are not free eventhough they may appear to be.

Originally posted by clickclick
Again, you are violating the concept of foreknowledge by making your statement. Even if the future already existed, that does not mean that anything was predetermined.

If your future exists before you make the choices that will create it, then it is fixed and your choices did not create it at all; Your choices were already determined by the very existence of the future.

It is consistent, it is only different to some people because of how they interpret it, and also the things they choose to ignore! God made us for companionship, out of love, He gave us free will because he did not wish to have a bunch of robots! It is our choice whether we Love Him or follow his word! He gives us the complete instructions to make it into Heaven as opposed to hell. You must be baptized in Jesus' name, by no other name are we saved! You will also receive THe HOLY GHOST, with initial evidence of speaking in tongues, that is what happened on the Day of Pentecost,and it is promised to all believers. Note: Baptism means to be buried, not water sprinkled on the head. Jesus came up out of the water! Sprinkling was instituted by the Catholic church so it would be easy to baptize babies! Surprisr! Surprise! God Bless!

It is not my argument that one is forced but that his choices are not free even though they may appear to be.

There is no such thing as a choice if there is only one option. And in that, they would be forced to do whatever.

If your future exists before you make the choices that will create it, then it is fixed and your choices did not create it at all; Your choices were already determined by the very existence of the future.

The future would not exist without the past before it. God can see things as it happens or happend.

Originally posted by DirectorFitz
Plus, He doesn't send people to Hell, they are sent my their own free will...and that choice lies with whether or not they put their lives in Christ's hands....plus, He is just, and must judge justly...as also stated

Spoken very well.

to rehash a bit.

This thread makes 2 assumptions,

1- God loves everyone equally (included in this is that He exists)

2- Some people go to Heaven and some go to Hell

In argument one can attack the premises which results in

1- God either does not exist or does not love everyone equally

or

2- Everyone ends up in the same place

Alternatively one can try to reconcile the 2 premises. To do this the question of "What is the difference between those who go to heaven and those who go to hell?" must be answered.

Possible answers:

- Some take God up on his offer to save them from hell and some don't
- Some are "sinners" and some aren't (not supported by the Bible)
- God's power to save is limited somehow and only some can be saved
- Heaven and hell must somehow be balanced resulting in some people going one place and some going to the other. The choice could be made randomly or deliberately.

Did I miss anything?

Of course my own method is the reconciliation method with the first answer, that some accept the get out free card and some don't.

Originally posted by docb77
to rehash a bit.

This thread makes 2 assumptions,

1- God loves everyone equally (included in this is that He exists)

2- Some people go to Heaven and some go to Hell

In argument one can attack the premises which results in

1- God either does not exist or does not love everyone equally

or

2- Everyone ends up in the same place

Alternatively one can try to reconcile the 2 premises. To do this the question of "What is the difference between those who go to heaven and those who go to hell?" must be answered.

Possible answers:

- Some take God up on his offer to save them from hell and some don't
- Some are "sinners" and some aren't (not supported by the Bible)
- God's power to save is limited somehow and only some can be saved
- Heaven and hell must somehow be balanced resulting in some people going one place and some going to the other. The choice could be made randomly or deliberately.

Did I miss anything?

Of course my own method is the reconciliation method with the first answer, that some accept the get out free card and some don't.

There is no "free card"

The Bible has thousands of rules that we all could be unknowingly violating.

To repent means to live your life BY THE BIBLE, not just say "Okay God, Okay Jesus...I believe in you" and that's it. If it was THAT SIMPLE, no one would have a problem with Christianity.

The problem is that the Bible is flooded with contradictions, justifies hate and violence, yet forbids killing...or murder...or whatever you want to call it. It tells us to love our neighbor unconditionally, yet promotes judgement of others and "stoning" of others as well....

Repenting is NOT a Free Card Doc......it's a virtually impossible task since it is impossible not to "Sin" when EVERYTHING is a sin according to the Bible. 😘

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
There is no "free card"

The Bible has thousands of rules that we all could be unknowingly violating.

To repent means to live your life BY THE BIBLE, not just say "Okay God, Okay Jesus...I believe in you" and that's it. If it was THAT SIMPLE, no one would have a problem with Christianity.

The problem is that the Bible is flooded with contradictions, justifies hate and violence, yet forbids killing...or murder...or whatever you want to call it. It tells us to love our neighbor unconditionally, yet promotes judgement of others and "stoning" of others as well....

Repenting is [b]NOT a Free Card Doc......it's a virtually impossible task since it is impossible not to "Sin" when EVERYTHING is a sin according to the Bible. 😘 [/B]

Hey, nothing's actually free, but it's a lot cheaper than the alternative. I wasn't really even speaking Biblically. I was just putting forward what I see as the different ways of looking at the given question.

Perhaps I should have said not willing to make sacrifices for it. If we are looking at the Bible, All God asks for is everything we've got. In return He gives us everything He's got (Hint: We get the better part of that bargain)

Originally posted by docb77
Hey, nothing's actually free, but it's a lot cheaper than the alternative. I wasn't really even speaking Biblically. I was just putting forward what I see as the different ways of looking at the given question.

Originally posted by docb77
Perhaps I should have said not willing to make sacrifices for it. If we are looking at the Bible, All God asks for is everything we've got. In return He gives us everything He's got (Hint: We get the better part of that bargain)

Sacraficing things? You mean like my sex life? My creativity ? My individuality? My Happiness ?

Oh no...you SAID EVERYTHING....."blessed are the poor...for they shall inherit the kingdom of God"

So for me to go to Heaven I have to become poor ? 🙄

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[b]Sacraficing things? You mean like my sex life? My creativity ? My individuality? My Happiness ?

Oh no...you SAID EVERYTHING....."blessed are the poor...for they shall inherit the kingdom of God"

So for me to go to Heaven I have to become poor ? 🙄 [/B]

Everything means everything.

Give up your paycheck to paycheck job, then God gives you a Billion dollar position. (speaking metaphorically).

It's the willingness to sacrifice that God actually wants. Remember Abraham, He put God above his love for his son. You can criticize him for that, but remember God wasn't an abstract idea to him. God was someone he actually conversed with. Someone he knew.

You missed part of the verse: "Blessed are the poor in spirit for they shall inherit the kingdom of God"
It's the willingness that gets you in.

I'd give my life if God asked for it.

Originally posted by docb77
I'd give my life if God asked for it.

Would you kill me If God told you to ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Would you kill me If God told you to ?

Well, let's put it this way. I'd have a hard time believing God was asking that. But assuming that I knew that it was God doing the asking, and I mean a perfect knowledge, then I would reluctantly do so.

That may sound harsh on the surface, but think about this. In order to have that perfect knowledge, I would have to have an understanding of who God is. I would know that he loved you. I would know that he had a bigger picture in mind. I would know that there was a reason behind it (maybe it would prevent you from killing someone else or something).

If I didn't have that knowledge, there is no way I could kill someone just because someone told me to.

Originally posted by docb77
Well, let's put it this way. I'd have a hard time believing God was asking that. But assuming that I knew that it was God doing the asking, and I mean a perfect knowledge, then I would reluctantly do so.

That may sound harsh on the surface, but think about this. In order to have that perfect knowledge, I would have to have an understanding of who God is. I would know that he loved you. I would know that he had a bigger picture in mind. I would know that there was a reason behind it (maybe it would prevent you from killing someone else or something).

If I didn't have that knowledge, there is no way I could kill someone just because someone told me to.

Fair Enough...let me ask you...

Has God ever spoken to you directly ?

Originally posted by docb77
Everything means everything.

Give up your paycheck to paycheck job, then God gives you a Billion dollar position. (speaking metaphorically).

It's the willingness to sacrifice that God actually wants. Remember Abraham, He put God above his love for his son. You can criticize him for that, but remember God wasn't an abstract idea to him. God was someone he actually conversed with. Someone he knew.

You missed part of the verse: "Blessed are the poor in spirit for they shall inherit the kingdom of God"
It's the willingness that gets you in.

I'd give my life if God asked for it.

docb77, you are a person after God's own heart! Keep up the good work.

1 Samuel 13:14
But now your kingdom shall not continue. The LORD has sought for Himself a man after His own heart, and the LORD has commanded him to be commander over His people, because you have not kept what the LORD commanded you.”

🙂

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Fair Enough...let me ask you...

Has God ever spoken to you directly ?

If you mean an audible voice, I'd have to say no.

Now, departing from the land of provable fact and into the land of faith and beliefs - I think God tries to communicate with everyone. The problem is that we tend not to listen. There's a scripture in the OT that says

1 Kings 19
11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

The voice of the Lord is often quiet, why that is? I don't know. But I think that most people just don't listen hard enough to hear it. The wind, and the earthquake, and the fire are just too distracting. I'm distracted most of the time myself. But there are times, when you feel completely at peace... I believe that that peace comes from God.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
docb77, you are a person after God's own heart! Keep up the good work.

1 Samuel 13:14
But now your kingdom shall not continue. The LORD has sought for Himself a man after His own heart, and the LORD has commanded him to be commander over His people, because you have not kept what the LORD commanded you.”

🙂

You mean that even after I criticized the chick tracts?😉

Originally posted by docb77
If you mean an audible voice, I'd have to say no.

Now, departing from the land of provable fact and into the land of faith and beliefs - I think God tries to communicate with everyone. The problem is that we tend not to listen. There's a scripture in the OT that says

1 Kings 19
11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

The voice of the Lord is often quiet, why that is? I don't know. But I think that most people just don't listen hard enough to hear it. The wind, and the earthquake, and the fire are just too distracting. I'm distracted most of the time myself. But there are times, when you feel completely at peace... I believe that that peace comes from God.

So you don't TRULY know what God is saying. Thanks for clarifying that. 👆