"Y'know, I could see the star manipulation thing. Really. But it's a huge jump from what she's doing now."
It's a huge jump from what she's been doing since her creation. Since she got given the power to control the weather.
"Anybody who runs their own country shouldn't lose to people who get knocked out by bricks."
Also debris created by their own tornadoes.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"Not sure how the whole star-controlling thing would impact this fight, though."It wouldn't coz she wouldn't use it. The difference between her doing that and Doom's magical shield is that Doom has magical powers. Storm is no cosmic, fact.
No, the difference between her doing that and Doom's magical shield is that Storm has done it before. Doom hasn't. Storm is no cosmic, but we never really knew how her mutant powers would interact with other things, like how they are on a different planet, or in space, or...near a star. It's valid, but like I said, there's no point arguing this because it's a non-factor in this fight unless someone talks about how she's powered herself up from Earth using a star (the closest one being our sun).
"Storm needs cover. Storm takes cover. She MAKES it a game of hide and seek. You turn disadvantages into advantages, you make the environment yours. Battle strategy 101."Who's better at making the environment their own? Doom did that with a country, and the world.....3 times.
All of which is well and good, so when Doom takes over the world, he can make sure he installs cameras so he can see where Storm runs. Until then, that's not a relevant point. Storm is great a stealth fighting, she's a great ground fighter. Of course she's better at making the environment her own.
"Of course, because Doom ALWAYS fights with his shields up, making him completely invulnerable all those times he got demolished by the Thing or fried by Torch, right?"So we're taking it down to help Storm? Ridiculous. If she has to take cover, logic and common sense say the fight has started. Hence he would have his shield up, as we've established.
We don't need it down to help Storm, but you're assuming that Doom's fights all his fights with his shield up. In fact, he's fought without his shield up more often than not. It's bad judgment, of course, but the nature of his character and his history. So with the shield up, she absorbs it, or she goes through it. With the shield down...just toasts him. Either way, she has options for him.
"If you want to throw in magic powers, go ahead. But the only time he's used them at combat speed was during Unthinkable, when he sold is soul to demons."Yeah, and those other examples shown to you.
Which weren't valid. Doom specifically said that he turned his back on magic unwisely. That means that he didn't study, and didn't use it. That means he wouldn't use it because he wouldn't be comfortable enough to do it. That's why since his first FF appearance, he's only used magic as part of rituals, never in fights. So if you think Doom is going to whip out a spellbook and a cauldron during a fight with Storm, you're out of your mind...
By the way - I researched those other examples. The only other magic fights he's ever had (against the demons that other poster referened) was during the time he had Promethium armor, which was created by the demons of Limbo, who created the Soulsword. That granted him magic abilities. Once he stopped using that armor, he was back to square one - no magic in fights.
"If the F4 EVER failed, Doom wouldn't be as dead as he is today.
If Galactus said, "I'm gonna kill Doom right now" Doom would be dead.
Hell, if Surfer said, "I'm gonna kill Doom right now", Doom would be dead. And I'm not gonna mention Squirrel Girl......shoot, too late."Considering Doom has conquered the world 3 times, I'd say they've failed the odd time.
And succeeded countless more times, and overthrew him every time, even from a position of power. Not a good track record.
Likelihood of Galactus saying this? None. Same with Surfer? None. Even less.
Precisely my point. You can't say they "failed" to do anything because they didn't fight Doom. Doom came in with a plan to take their power. He took it. That's like Batman vs. Superman. Batman won because Superman wasn't trying to fight. If Galactus and Doom were equally committed to destroying each other, Doom wouldn't last a second. So using what he did to this cosmic or that cosmic to justify how he'd do against people who ARE trying to take him down is completely invalid.
The really funny thing is, Dr. Doom is their main villain. Magneto isn't dead, he fights the X-Men. Dr. Doom fights the Fantastic Four and he isn't dead either. Coz he is that good.
So good his body was destroyed and he was sent to Hell, even with infinite one-sided prep time, evidently.
If they all decided to actually kill off everyone less powerful than them, Doom would go back in time and kill them before they got on the shuttle. Stop being so literal.
All that would do is create an alternate timeline. That's why Doom hasn't done it. Going back in time and doing stuff like that in the MU doesn't really have the effect you're thinking it does. That's why more people don't do that.
What's worse, Squirrel Girl or a brick? A Brick. An inanimate object.
Except Doom was trying to fight Squirrel Girl. And failed. Storm wasn't trying to fight the brick. It just happened.
"Storm is great a stealth fighting, she's a great ground fighter. Of course she's better at making the environment her own."
Storm is better at stealth fighting? Yeah and? Doom's so good at stealth fighting that he doesn't even need to leave his castle most of the time. Beat it if you can. You can't get much stealthier than not having to turn up to win.
"So with the shield up, she absorbs it, or she goes through it. With the shield down...just toasts him. Either way, she has options for him."
A) I'm not assuming he always fights with his shield up. There you go misquoting again. I merely said that in this fight, after she's taken cover, it's common sense to say his shield is up. B) It's not that simple, hence the 19 pages.
"That means that he didn't study, and didn't use it. That means he wouldn't use it because he wouldn't be comfortable enough to do it. That's why since his first FF appearance, he's only used magic as part of rituals, never in fights. So if you think Doom is going to whip out a spellbook and a cauldron during a fight with Storm, you're out of your mind..."
He got tutored by Strange, says to me that he studied it. As for that last line. Considering he needs neither of those, I'd say it's not that far of a stretch.
"Once he stopped using that armor, he was back to square one - no magic in fights."
....as of yet. He has the ability. Proven. Nothing is to say he won't ever do so again, but that's pure speculation.
"And succeeded countless more times, and overthrew him every time, even from a position of power. Not a good track record."
Yes but you consistantly concentrate on what a villain (excluding Magneto) does wrong, rather than what they've done right. He's beat the F4. The book can be closed there. Could Storm beat the F4? No. Could she do what Doom has done to his opponents? No. I expect to see her in the next Infinity Gauntlet Saga, leading the way. Or the next The End.
"Precisely my point. You can't say they "failed" to do anything because they didn't fight Doom. Doom came in with a plan to take their power. He took it. "
He beat Surfer by jacking his board. Taking it off him. If Storm or any collaboration of the X-Men even tried this, they would get laughed away with such vigour.
"So using what he did to this cosmic or that cosmic to justify how he'd do against people who ARE trying to take him down is completely invalid."
It's not because I'm not saying they couldn't take him down. I'm saying he took them out. Doom can take out cosmics, Storm couldn't. Someone with the power to overthrow and outsmart a cosmic isn't going down to a woman who controls the weather.
"So good his body was destroyed and he was sent to Hell, even with infinite one-sided prep time, evidently."
By Storm? No.
"All that would do is create an alternate timeline. That's why Doom hasn't done it. Going back in time and doing stuff like that in the MU doesn't really have the effect you're thinking it does. That's why more people don't do that."
Another reason is because it's fake and pointless. Stop being so literal.
"Except Doom was trying to fight Squirrel Girl. And failed. Storm wasn't trying to fight the brick. It just happened."
He wasn't "trying to fight" her. "If Galactus wanted to destroy Doom, Doom wouldn't last a second." Neither would Squirrel Girl.
Storm got knocked out.......by a brick.
-AC
"she lost control- mutants lose control all the time, it was also a mitstake and nobody's perfect. besides storm has been hit with more force before and hasn't lost consciousness"
She lost control of the thing she is supposed to control the best. She made a mistake? She makes a mistake against Doom and he'll kill her 10 times over.
It doesn't matter if she's been hit with more and not lost consciousness. She got knocked out by a brick. Concussed by a brick. How's she gonna fare against a super-genius with a suit that possess concussion beams capable of disintegrating mountains?
Nuff said.
-AC
Originally posted by stormfront13I'm pretty sure Doom's arm would be good enough. It's not like physically normal people are that hard to take out with bricks.
did you not just read what I said?? doom can't throw a brick at the same speed or force a tornado can. and storm has been hit with more force before and was still conscious
"did you not just read what I said?? doom can't throw a brick at the same speed or force a tornado can. and storm has been hit with more force before and was still conscious "
Did you not read what I said?
Doom has concussion beams that can destroy mountains. Storm got taken out by a brick, among other objects.
Stormfront, you've got no chance here.
-AC
"stop acting like I don't know what I'm talking about. storm is an omega level mutant- she isn't going down that easily"
It doesn't matter if it's easy or not. Do you think that it changes the outcome if a football player plays his heart out with his team and they walk off losers? No it doesn't. They still lost. Storm will still lose.
-AC