Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The fact is, Ice-Man was told he had potential to do all these things...........then he did them. Which is BS. You don't reach potential based on the fact that you know you've got it.-AC
cyclops had the potential to level buildings, now he has the ability, colosuss has steadily grown in strength, angel can heal the sick... how often have we seen panel by panel these things happening?
"cyclops had the potential to level buildings, now he has the ability, colosuss has steadily grown in strength, angel can heal the sick... how often have we seen panel by panel these things happening?"
When Cyclops has been in situations of anger or stress, he's flipped and shown power beyond that which he's used before, unaided. Same with Colossus. Angel healing the sick was always implied because.......he's an angel.
Ice-Man has been aided or forced unnaturally every step of the way. The fact remains, potential or not, your argument was that he was too dumb to realise it. Emma made him realise it. So? You don't gain access to them upon realisation. Like I said, if you told me I could look like Arnold by going to the gym, I couldn't go there and come out looking like him. I'd have to work and work and work to get there. Ice-Man just told us he did, I never saw it, neither did you, neither did Demi.
-AC
"cyclops didn't have that ability in the older comics, we never saw colossus train to improve himself, same with any x-man...would you read a comic back to back pages of iceman training?"
It was implied that he did, purely coz he had to wear a visor. I saw Colossus train many times so I can see why. I still don't agree with "Voila, he's now got a new strength level".
Would I read that? No. What I said was, I would like an explanation and proof.
You are dodging the fact that Ice-Man getting these powers was "You can do it Bobbyyyyy!" "Yeah I can".....and boom. He has them.
Sounds like BS to me, because it is.
-AC
i'm not dodging anything, he didn't just reach that potential instantaneously, its been explained how his powers changed over the years... and how he developed them...
angel could never heal until recently, cyclops wore the visor for the simple fact that without it he would be blind, and shades aren't practical in combat. his blasts to this day are considered weak by so many idiots... we never saw his powers develop, we were told they did... we never saw colossus' strength increase, it just did, same with most x-men...
what proof do you require? im seriously asking...
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Could actually feel the frustration permeating through the screen.
my apologies... just when people don't like the character they use the old 'puny eye beams' argument...
once again i'm sorry... 😮
alpha, you claim to want to have it spelled out for you, your an intelligent guy, and i would never try to insult your intelligence, don't insult mine...
i spelled out my argument, you just seemed to ignore it...
marvel has spent more developing iceman than half the xmen, if that isnt enough for you, then fair enough, but proclaiming it to be dumb just because you say so isn't right...
and there are tons more heroes who ridiculously attained their current powers than iceman: batman, the fantastic four, the list goes on...
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"He also TOLD Emma he'd been practicing. Remember, he went to her for help, she chided him because he didn't learn anything despite having a basic guidebook implanted in his head consisting of his memories of her. She said that the only reason why he's not doing that stuff is because he doesn't WANT to. Iceman responded by saying that she's wrong, he's been practicing..."Here's how it is: If you're gonna give someone like Ice-Man, powers like he has now, I wanna see specific reasons, methods and actions as to how they got that way. I don't buy him "telling" Emma, or assuming what happens off panel. If you're gonna make such a drastic and desperate maneuver, I wanna know EXACTLY why. Don't assume I'm just gonna suck it up and agree.
But it's not that drastic a change. You make it sound as though Iceman has the ability to alter reality. Read Iceman lately? He's still getting beaten up by Juggernaut. He's a lot more powerful than the Snowboy he was, but so are all the X-men. There was nothing drastic or sudden about it. Nothing.
"If he says, "I've been practicing", it's meant to assume that he has been. And I can't think of a single comic character outside of, like, Generation X or New Mutants who has devoted tons of on-panel time practicing. It just doesn't happen. To expect that of Iceman when it doesn't work that way for anybody is just plain silly."Someone of Ice-Man's previous calibre, to gaining what he has now, deserves explaination. Not just "I've been training Em" or "Yeah....been working hard". You can assume that, if you want to. I don't because I'm not a sucker. I don't believe that I have to assume everything.
So you're calling me a sucker because Iceman says he's been training, then demonstrates what he's been training? That's nonsense. I don't NEED to see every bit of training he does. He's not a god now, over the last ten years he's added a few new techniques - I don't need to know the specifics. Just like when Reed said, "Invisible Girl, you can only turn yourself invisible, but try concentrating and turning someone else invisible" and she said, "ok Reed" and suddenly she did it...did you find that bogus? I find that more hokey than Iceman taking 15 years to learn seven new techniques and 20 years to learn another four.
"Because he said he did it. What? He's lying now? C'mon - who really wants to see him practicing issue after issue? NOBODY does that. Be reasonable, man."I've said before, if you're gonna make such a drastic change, I wanna see why.
And that's where we disagree - I don't see it as being that drastic a change. And thus I don't need a issue upon issue devoted to Iceman meditating in the danger room until he gets something. It has nothing to do with me "accepting things". It has everything to do with "get the damn story moving".
You accept FAR too much in comics Demi. Torch gets put out with a fire extinguisher: "Well ok if they think so". Ice-Man can freeze blood: "Ok well if that's what they think". Thanos arrested: "I guess it's ok if they decide it".
I couldn't possibly disagree more. YOU accept far too much in comics. I look beyond comics to the science behind it. I ask why - I ask how, and I look at the possibilities beyond that. You should know that. Iceman can freeze blood because it makes sense within the context of his powers. I accept it because it makes sense. I DON'T accept Torch flying in space with his powers activated because fire CANNOT exist without a supply of oxygen. Turns out, that wasn't even what happened. I choose to accept or not accept based upon how much sense it makes. Torch existing in space flamed on doesn't make sense. I don't acept it. Iceman training for 20 years to learn four techniques does make sense. I do accept it.
You just say, "Well, there's no evidence of Storm doing that before, so...", and if there IS evidence to support it, then you just dismiss it as bad writing. You can't have your cake and eat it too. We support our positions by referencing comics. You do it to support your position, and then when someone references comics for a position you don't agree with you just call it bad writing and say it doesn't count. Nonsense.
"alpha... its been stated so many times that the x-men train daily for several hours (excluding weekends)...almost every x-men has developed and evolved over the years..."This is irrelevant though. If someone says "Oh yeah the X-Men train every day". That's realistic....humans go to the gym every day. They don't go in and come out looking like The Terminator just because they have the potential to look that way.
Because people train for different things. Cyclops trains to maintain his shape and his marksmanship. Stands to reason Bobby, when he trains, would be to improve his control and expand his powers. I'd expect nothing else. What, you think when he trains everyday, it's just to build more ice bridges and to throw snow? Ridiculous...
The fact is, Ice-Man was told he had potential to do all these things...........then he did them. Which is BS. You don't reach potential based on the fact that you know you've got it.
I agree. But that's not what happened. He didn't just DO them. It's taken years for him to get to this point. I don't know how to make that any clearer.
"marvel has spent more developing iceman than half the xmen, if that isnt enough for you, then fair enough, but proclaiming it to be dumb just because you say so isn't right..."
Developing? "He's shit in X-Men let's try him in X-Factor. Oh no he's shit there so we'll move him to X-Force. Hmmm this isn't working". There was no development, naturally.
"and there are tons more heroes who ridiculously attained their current powers than iceman: batman, the fantastic four, the list goes on..."
Sue was having fits of power for a long long time, naturally. She then adapted a power she already had. She didn't gain a new one. It was explained why, shown. Hence why we all know so much about why it happened.
This is all off topic. Your argument was "Evolution/Potential". None of which apply here.
-AC
last post
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue was having fits of power for a long long time, naturally. She then adapted a power she already had. She didn't gain a new one.
That's exactly how I'd describe Bobby. He got powered up by Loki, had fits of power and couldn't control it. He then adapted a power he already had. He didn't gain a new one.
And it took him longer to do so than it did Sue.
"But it's not that drastic a change. You make it sound as though Iceman has the ability to alter reality. Read Iceman lately? He's still getting beaten up by Juggernaut. He's a lot more powerful than the Snowboy he was, but so are all the X-men. There was nothing drastic or sudden about it. Nothing."
Yes, yes there was. The gap between him not having those powers and having them was way too small. The way he gained them was being told he had the potential and immediately getting there. BS.
"So you're calling me a sucker because Iceman says he's been training, then demonstrates what he's been training? That's nonsense. I don't NEED to see every bit of training he does. He's not a god now, over the last ten years he's added a few new techniques - I don't need to know the specifics. "
Is your name "I"? Did I call you a sucker? Nope. Stop assuming. You don't need or you don't care really? Over the last TEN YEARS he's added a few new techniques.....making slides and simple ice manipulation. Then he had some rush of training that we never saw happen and gained these new powers.
"Just like when Reed said, "Invisible Girl, you can only turn yourself invisible, but try concentrating and turning someone else invisible" and she said, "ok Reed" and suddenly she did it...did you find that bogus? I find that more hokey than Iceman taking 15 years to learn seven new techniques and 20 years to learn another four."
I've commented on Sue above. Secondly, that last line proves your assumption level. WHERE IS ALL THIS TRAINING? Oops, nowhere to be seen. If you're gonna make such a large change in such a short space for such a lame reason, I wanna see what he did to get there. They couldn't come up with a believeable reason so they just threw it out and you caught it.
"And thus I don't need a issue upon issue devoted to Iceman meditating in the danger room until he gets something. It has nothing to do with me "accepting things". It has everything to do with "get the damn story moving"."
Everything to do with "We really need to stop being shit at any cost".
"I couldn't possibly disagree more. YOU accept far too much in comics. I look beyond comics to the science behind it. I ask why - I ask how"
Hahahaha. Funniest denial ever. Have I not been asking how and why for the past two pages where as you've been saying more or less "He just did, be reasonable"? Hahahhaha.
" Iceman training for 20 years to learn four techniques does make sense. I do accept it."
You never saw it happen. What happened to questioning why or how?
"You can't have your cake and eat it too. We support our positions by referencing comics. You do it to support your position, and then when someone references comics for a position you don't agree with you just call it bad writing and say it doesn't count. Nonsense."
See what you tried there, nice but didn't quite work. If you look back over my posts on this board you'll notice I'm strict when it comes to calling things bad writing. Is Torch being put out by an extinguisher bad writing? Yes. Am I saying Ice-Man's powers are bad writing? No. Am I saying how he got them is absolutely ridiculous? Yes.
"Stands to reason Bobby, when he trains, would be to improve his control and expand his powers. I'd expect nothing else. What, you think when he trains everyday, it's just to build more ice bridges and to throw snow? Ridiculous..."
Not really. When I go to martial arts classes I do certain things that I do every week, because that's part of training. You dodge points so badly. If we had seen what he did to get there or how hard he trained, fair enough. I am not gonna accept it off the back of "I've been training mates". "Yeah? How? What with? How'd you be able to do that?" "Emma said I could"...."Yeah? So? Wasn't my question was it?"
-AC
This all comes down to whether or not you need to be shown Iceman actually, physically training. You say you need it, the fact that he says he's been training hard isn't enough. I say I don't, the fact that he says he's been training hard is enough.
I don't WANT to see him training. There are storylines and plots to advance. I have no problem at all knowing that X-men train and get better in the background, inbetween issues. And I have no problem at all knowing that when they say they've been practicing techniques and then they do it....it's because they've practiced it.
I don't need to see you practicing in a dojo for years. If you come back three years later and roundhouse kick me into a wall and you say you did it because you've been practicing it - hell, I guess you did.
The Emma storyline was in 1995. During that time, he only learned:
Controlling temperatures in the bodies of others
Changing/Constituting his body mass
Several years later, Prosh taught him:
Turning into water vapor
Traveling as water vapor
I say that's not sudden. And that's not a stretch.
You say otherwise.
I don't know how much more there is to it.
"This all comes down to whether or not you need to be shown Iceman actually, physically training. You say you need it, the fact that he says he's been training hard isn't enough. I say I don't, the fact that he says he's been training hard is enough. "
No no no. Stop adding two and two if you can't get four. You were told he was training. You were told that he went to train after being told he had this amazing potential by Emma. It's BS that he immediately went and accessed that potential.
"I don't need to see you practicing in a dojo for years. If you come back three years later and roundhouse kick me into a wall and you say you did it because you've been practicing it - hell, I guess you did."
Point is, if you said to me "AC you have the potential to be Bruce Lee". I couldn't automatically access that, just because I know it's there. Which is what Ice-Man did.
"The Emma storyline was in 1995. During that time, he only learned: Controlling temperatures in the bodies of others
Changing/Constituting his body mass Several years later, Prosh taught him: Turning into water vapo Traveling as water vapor I say that's not sudden. And that's not a stretch. You say otherwise. I don't know how much more there is to it"
I never saw any of this. Being taught something and being told you have potential that is instantly accessible are two different things.
-AC
But it wasn't instantly accessible. In UXM 311, Emma takes over his body. After the whole Phalanx storyline, Iceman only learned one trick from that - the temperature in someone's body changing, which he used on Emma. He learned the body mass changing in UXM 319 - after he said he'd been practicing it.
He learned changing his perceptions to see temperatures during the Onslaught saga, again years later, when Onslaught blocked out visual and telepathic perception of his approach.
The Prosh part of it was several years separate from that.
Again, nothing "instantly accessible" about any of this. He was told about his potential by Rasputin, he learns a couple of tricks. He's told about his potential by Emma. He learns a couple more tricks. He's told about his potential by Prosh. He learns a couple more tricks. He's STILL not at his potential.
So you keep clinging to the point, but it's simply NOT been "instantly accessible", and now I'm including issue numbers too. Look them up.
Why are you telling me to look stuff up? Do you actually go into debates with the assumption that you are the only one who knows something?
I don't judge without knowing. I've read those. I'm not clinging to anything either.
Fact is, it happened like this: Ice-Man returned with powers. The reason you were given is that he just wasn't accessing the potential, but it was there. Coincidentally as soon as Emma showed him and Prosh told him, he got it. Not rocket science.
-AC