Originally posted by pr1983
i never said why he or she should be...but he IS more powerful...
Don't lecture me about not reading posts. First you said that I should read all of the posts, and I should explain why Storm should be more powerful, but now you are just saying that Iceman should be more powerful. No reasons. Nothing just... he should. Common!! keep it consistent,dude!!!!
storm is prolly more powerful- if emma had never taken hold of his body then he wouldn't be as advanced as he is wioth his powers, she taught him how to do things that he never wpuld have attempted. so many people have taught him how to develop his powers that he probably doesn't fully know them. when storm joined the x-men she already had full control of her powers. no one has hardly helped her develop them, so she is more expierenced with her powers.
if thee is no moisture in the air then it will be hard for him to use his powers. also storm can make it hotter than 100 degrees so it can be really hot. lightning can be a lot more than 5,000 degrees so it will definitley hurt him. if she keeps hitting him with lightning really quickly then he prolly won't have a chance to hit her. storm will be able to destroy his slide which makes it like useless. she definitley can pin him to the ground making it more hard for him. if she just keeps hitting him with lightning he will eventually be done- either way she can definitley beat him
Stormfront, do you ever NOT vote for Storm? Seriously?
So that I don't have to quote every bit, allow me to point out something:
Demi, what you just showed is far from natural progression. "Too dumb to use his powers", apparantly not. Apparantly he had to be augmented every single step of the way.
"BUT - you did say that if you were provided with proof that his evolution was gradual, you'd accept it even if you didn't agree with it. I just showed you 20 years worth of evolution - do you accept it?"
I wasn't given reason to believe he has the capability to freeze veins or the blood in them. I was given multiple examples that I already knew about as to how he got his powers to become more than throwing snowballs, which was through other people. He didn't possess the ability to reach "potential" on his own. I see heavily aided progression, I don't see this natural progression you said he had. I've read those same comics, the fact that I don't believe he is worthy of the powers he has is because I've read those comics and haven't been given reason to agree he deserves them.
On topic, I believe Storm wins for reasons I have stated before.
-AC
I'd accept either outcome as being valid -- it's a closely contested battle. I wrote earlier that I think Storm would win because she's more of a warrior. But, I think I'll argue Iceman's side now.
storm is prolly more powerful- if emma had never taken hold of his body then he wouldn't be as advanced as he is wioth his powers, she taught him how to do things that he never wpuld have attempted.
Why does that matter? ok, so Iceman had people helping him. It doesn't matter HOW he got to be as good with his powers as he is now, all that matters is that he IS as good with these powers as he is now.
so many people have taught him how to develop his powers that he probably doesn't fully know them. when storm joined the x-men she already had full control of her powers. no one has hardly helped her develop them, so she is more expierenced with her powers.
I take the opposite view - so many people have taught him how to develop his pwers that he does have awesome control over them now. But...he's still not functioning at max, and that's scary.
There was a "future issue" of X-men once, where Iceman went nuts and some of the X-men were hunting him down. He actually HID inside the water molecules in the atmosphere so they had no idea that he was even in the room. Suddenly, an ice spike comes out of nowhere and impales Gambit. A split second later the other X-man (Beast or Angel...can't remember) immediately freezes, falls to the ground and shatters. Until then, they had no idea he was even there. Their only cue they were fighting him came from their deaths.
Now THAT'S bad ass.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Demi, what you just showed is far from natural progression. "Too dumb to use his powers", apparantly not. Apparantly he had to be augmented every single step of the way.
ok - he was augmented and showed what to do. That's fine. But he was augmented and showed what to do over 20 years to reach the state where he's at now. That was my point. Yours was that he showed up one day super-powerful because the writers just "decided" it. That didn't happen.
"BUT - you did say that if you were provided with proof that his evolution was gradual, you'd accept it even if you didn't agree with it. I just showed you 20 years worth of evolution - do you accept it?"I wasn't given reason to believe he has the capability to freeze veins or the blood in them. I was given multiple examples that I already knew about as to how he got his powers to become more than throwing snowballs, which was through other people.
You're trying to change the debate. The point we were debating wasn't whether or not he "naturally" got his powers (aside from Loki, all his powers were natural, just taught). The point we were debating was whether he has the capability of freezing veins and all that at all. You said he has no such capability and the fact that he'd "go away one day and come back and say 'look guys I've been practicing'" is idiotic. I showed otherwise. WHO helped him get there is meaningless. The point is he was taught and shown over the course of years how to get there. Now he's there. I see nothing stupid, wrong, impossible, or contrived about that.
He didn't possess the ability to reach "potential" on his own. I see heavily aided progression, I don't see this natural progression you said he had.
When I say "natural", I mean "gradual", as in it wasn't this sudden thing you kept saying it was. He got a magic power up by Loki, but everything else he was always capable of doing - it just took other people showing him what he's capable of. But so what? Some people need more guidance than others.
I've read those same comics, the fact that I don't believe he is worthy of the powers he has is because I've read those comics and haven't been given reason to agree he deserves them.
Well, now you're arguing something different. Whether or not he "deserves" his powers is something else entirely. I have no opinion on that - I think you get what you get, and if you're a hero, you'll use it to its best, regardless of how you got it. I don't think Molecule Man is deserving of his powers either, but...who cares?
But you're right...further replies on this topic on the other thread.
Yeah Iceman has had a "logical" progression with his powers
He went from being covered with snow and only being able to throw snowballs..
....to being covered with ice and creating ice slopes to slide on...
....to a point in X-factor where he had no control of his abilities(he ended up taking down the Gray Hulk during this "lack of control" period)
....to his powers being f****d with by Colussus brother, giving him further control over his abilities....(can't remember his name..think it's Nicholi)
....to being f****d with by Loki....
....to...aww sh*t you get the point...lol...
Ice Man has always been a force to be reckoned with...it's good to see that he's now being treated that way in the X-books...
Anyway....after all my fanboyistic rantings about ice man's progression...lol...I still see Storm winning this battle...after all she controls the elements...and ice is an element right? So I think she would figure out a way to control Bobby with her powers. Besides Storm is stronger willed than Bobby, and even if she was to be outclassed power wise..she would not give up the fight easily...
I listed the exact progression of his powers on another page, but you're pretty much on point with your progression list.
I don't know if Storm could control Bobby - I think the nature of Bobby's powers are more granular than Storm's. Storm has atmospheric control - she can command the atmosphere to do certain things. Bobby's control really seems to be molecular - the fact that he can freeze and unfreeze things shows that he actually controls the SPEED that molecules spin. that overrides general atmospheric control. So Bobby could exert more immediate and complete control over the environment than Storm could.
Considering you said his progression was natural and considering the reason we were given in the comics was that he decided to test his limits, is the reason why I think like I do.
You don't, after 25 plus years, randomly think "I'll go and see how far I can get when I'm not augmented". It wasn't as natural as you claimed it to be, it was quite out of the blue. You listed a few occurances over a 25 plus year period. In respect, that's not alot. Certainly not enough for me to believe that he could straight away get to where he was. He wasn't shown that he had more power, just that he could streamline it.
Like I said, we can do this in an "Ice-Man's powers" thread.
-AC
Originally posted by demigawd
I listed the exact progression of his powers on another page, but you're pretty much on point with your progression list.I don't know if Storm could control Bobby - I think the nature of Bobby's powers are more granular than Storm's. Storm has atmospheric control - she can command the atmosphere to do certain things. Bobby's control really seems to be molecular - the fact that he can freeze and unfreeze things shows that he actually controls the SPEED that molecules spin. that overrides general atmospheric control. So Bobby could exert more immediate and complete control over the environment than Storm could.
Uh...oh..the old mixing comics with science debate..lol...well I don't know..it's possible that Storm does have some control of the atmosphere on a "molecular" level...it would seem logical that she would have to..in order to control the weather in the way that she does...I could be wrong on this though...Marvel really doesn't go in to the scientific specifics of her power...and to be honest with you...I barely made it past freshman chemistry..lol...but who really cares...all I know is that she is much stronger willed/determined/and adept at using her abilities than Bobby is with his..so although it might be a tough battle..grit/willpower/experience and determination win the day...at least in my humble opinion...
if anything they are equally powerful. storm can take away all the moisture in the air, which will make it a little hard for him. a very small bomb has exploded him bofore so a really big lightning bolt should too.
the fact that he's nigh impossible to kill and has superior control of his powers gives him the edge imo...
Don't lecture me about not reading posts. First you said that I should read all of the posts, and I should explain why Storm should be more powerful, but now you are just saying that Iceman should be more powerful. No reasons. Nothing just... he should. Common!! keep it consistent,dude!!!!
i never said he should, i said he WAS... difference... for more:
the fact that he's nigh impossible to kill and has superior control of his powers gives him the edge imo...
don't even attempt to lecture me about consistency...
Oh calm it down people. Now this will be my last post on Ice-Man's powers, I've already stated who I think would win and why.
First off the Loki/Belt thing, Loki overloaded his power and he had to wear the belt to calm it down, nothing natural about it.
Look, does that not strike you as odd PR? Ice-Man Bobby Drake......nigh unkillable? Rather than the writers just saying Emma helped him and that he had potential, why don't they show us how she helped him? Oh they did. "She showed him that he had the potential and then he used it". Well......wasn't as if he went away for a very long time, trained up on his own and came back with the ability and an explanation as to why. You're just assuming that coz she showed him he had some major potential, that he could reach it instantly just coz he knew he had it.
Victor Von Doom raised an excellent point:
If a drummer is smashing away stupidly on drums and his teacher comes in and says "Don't be stupid with that. You have the potential to become Terry Bozzio in time", does that mean that the drummer can now go "Wow. I know I have the potential, watch me instantly gain access to the potential and play like Terry"? No it doesn't. If he went home and said to his mum "I can play Terry Bozzio drum solos", "How?", "Teacher showed me I had potential to."
Having the potential to be great when you're shit doesn't mean you're gonna automatically be great upon being told you can be great. Same applies to Ice-Man.
Emma: You have the potential to be able to freeze the air around you completely, as well as the blood in people's veins!
Ice-Man: You're right, I do have the potential....wow, now I can do it.
Yeah, pretty ridiculous. With training and practise he could do that probably. However, being told by Emma and then going away for a bit doesn't mean shit. Knowing he had the potential doesn't mean he can instantly live up to it.
-AC
i never said he did... she psychically trained him to use what abilities he'd never bothered to use in the first place...
i do know what you mean, nobody automatically gains abilities, thats why he had to train and experiment to figure out anything... but i don't see it outside of his reach to attain that level of skill eventually...
as for his being hard to kill...
the fact that he can reconstruct his body after almost any injury is the one thing that always seemed unusual to me, but hey, this is comics, not real life...
i know we'll never agree about his origins, and whether either of us like it or not marvel has given him these abilities, and i believe they are sufficient to defeat storm...
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Oh calm it down people. Now this will be my last post on Ice-Man's powers, I've already stated who I think would win and why.First off the Loki/Belt thing, Loki overloaded his power and he had to wear the belt to calm it down, nothing natural about it.
We're using different definitions of "natural". When I said "natural progression", I meant it wasn't sudden, like you were saying. Loki amped his powers up, it changed the nature of his potential (possibly). But that was 20 years ago. He's spent all the time in-between trying to harness it.
Look, does that not strike you as odd PR? Ice-Man Bobby Drake......nigh unkillable? Rather than the writers just saying Emma helped him and that he had potential, why don't they show us how she helped him? Oh they did. "She showed him that he had the potential and then he used it". Well......wasn't as if he went away for a very long time, trained up on his own and came back with the ability and an explanation as to why. You're just assuming that coz she showed him he had some major potential, that he could reach it instantly just coz he knew he had it.
Well, you're assuming that Bobby hasn't practiced. There's a lot that goes on off-panel in the lives of the X-men. For several years in the mid-90s, Bobby was one of the focal points. During that time, he DID expand his capabilities significantly AND gradually. Think about it. He goes from (in order):
70s
1) Snow man throwing snowballs
2) Shooting ice
3) Creating ice bridges
80s
4) Replacing his body with ice
5) Controlling temperatures outside for non-ice-making purposes
6) Freezing objects by touch
90s
7) Controlling temperatures inside other people
8) Building his body in more powerful configurations/shape-changing
9) Reconstituting his body out of water vapor
10) Traveling as water vapor to move large distances quickly
So he's clearly been practicing a lot to even get to that point - by the time the whole Emma thing came into play, he had learned 1-6. He mentioned he was doing a lot of practicing on his own using the memories imprinted in him by Emma, but still didn't know how to re-build is body after the hole was blown in him. He actually attacked Emma with some of the tricks he was practicing to convince her to help him - that included lowering the temperature in her brain. The only thing he got from her was being shocked into reforming his body - and that was because his life depended on it. Several issues later (or before, I can't remember), he went to Storm for help in controlling his powers. She agreed, but all of their training was off-panel.
Nope - still nothing sudden about his powers. He practiced just like anybody else.
"thats why he had to train and experiment to figure out anything... but i don't see it outside of his reach to attain that level of skill eventually..."
Where did he train? Did you see this training? I never.
"He's spent all the time in-between trying to harness it."
No he didn't. I read X-Men, X-Factor and X-Force, I never once saw him trying to harness anything. Hence my position.
"Well, you're assuming that Bobby hasn't practiced. There's a lot that goes on off-panel in the lives of the X-men. For several years in the mid-90s, Bobby was one of the focal points. During that time, he DID expand his capabilities significantly AND gradually. Think about it. He goes from (in order):"
Hahahaha. You tell me I'm assuming that he's practiced then go on to tell me that alot goes on "off-panel". Please...don't do that to yourself. Why am I to assume he trained to the max if I never saw him do it?
"So he's clearly been practicing a lot to even get to that point"
Clearly? Off-panel clearly? "Never seen it but better go along with it anyway" clearly? No thanks.
"He mentioned he was doing a lot of practicing on his own using the memories imprinted in him by Emma, but still didn't know how to re-build is body after the hole was blown in him. He actually attacked Emma with some of the tricks he was practicing to convince her to help him - that included lowering the temperature in her brain."
This all comes down to the writer just telling you he'd been practising. I was given no reason, evidence or proof to show that he had done anything to get himself to that point. It's the most desperate move in comic history.
"Several issues later (or before, I can't remember), he went to Storm for help in controlling his powers. She agreed, but all of their training was off-panel. Nope - still nothing sudden about his powers. He practiced just like anybody else."
Don't tell me I'm making assumptions when all the training that lead to him being this God, never took place in a single comic. I rest my case.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"thats why he had to train and experiment to figure out anything... but i don't see it outside of his reach to attain that level of skill eventually..."Where did he train? Did you see this training? I never.
He debuted his increased control over his powers in Ship, in a simulated "danger room". He said he'd been practicing to get a handle on his new power levels. Are we supposed to devote multiple issues to his specific training regimen?
"He's spent all the time in-between trying to harness it."No he didn't. I read X-Men, X-Factor and X-Force, I never once saw him trying to harness anything. Hence my position.
See above. He also TOLD Emma he'd been practicing. Remember, he went to her for help, she chided him because he didn't learn anything despite having a basic guidebook implanted in his head consisting of his memories of her. She said that the only reason why he's not doing that stuff is because he doesn't WANT to. Iceman responded by saying that she's wrong, he's been practicing...then nails her with a brain freeze.
I don't need (or want) to see entire issues of him with some physics book open in the danger room training. If he says, "I've been practicing", it's meant to assume that he has been. And I can't think of a single comic character outside of, like, Generation X or New Mutants who has devoted tons of on-panel time practicing. It just doesn't happen. To expect that of Iceman when it doesn't work that way for anybody is just plain silly.
Hahahaha. You tell me I'm assuming that he's practiced then go on to tell me that alot goes on "off-panel". Please...don't do that to yourself. Why am I to assume he trained to the max if I never saw him do it?
Because he said he did it. What? He's lying now? C'mon - who really wants to see him practicing issue after issue? NOBODY does that. Be reasonable, man.
Don't tell me I'm making assumptions when all the training that lead to him being this God, never took place in a single comic. I rest my case.
Well, first off, he isn't any kind of god, even now. He's STILL not functioning to his fullest potential. A lot of the tricks Emma did as him, he hasn't done much of at all. Even now. So he's still very much a work in progress. His state now is a very reasonable and mature end result of what's come before. If anything, I'd say he SHOULD be more powerful than they're showing him.
"He also TOLD Emma he'd been practicing. Remember, he went to her for help, she chided him because he didn't learn anything despite having a basic guidebook implanted in his head consisting of his memories of her. She said that the only reason why he's not doing that stuff is because he doesn't WANT to. Iceman responded by saying that she's wrong, he's been practicing..."
Here's how it is: If you're gonna give someone like Ice-Man, powers like he has now, I wanna see specific reasons, methods and actions as to how they got that way. I don't buy him "telling" Emma, or assuming what happens off panel. If you're gonna make such a drastic and desperate maneuver, I wanna know EXACTLY why. Don't assume I'm just gonna suck it up and agree.
"If he says, "I've been practicing", it's meant to assume that he has been. And I can't think of a single comic character outside of, like, Generation X or New Mutants who has devoted tons of on-panel time practicing. It just doesn't happen. To expect that of Iceman when it doesn't work that way for anybody is just plain silly."
Someone of Ice-Man's previous calibre, to gaining what he has now, deserves explaination. Not just "I've been training Em" or "Yeah....been working hard". You can assume that, if you want to. I don't because I'm not a sucker. I don't believe that I have to assume everything.
"Because he said he did it. What? He's lying now? C'mon - who really wants to see him practicing issue after issue? NOBODY does that. Be reasonable, man."
I've said before, if you're gonna make such a drastic change, I wanna see why. Not just be told. I'm not saying that with everyone, because not everyone is that much of a drastic change. You accept FAR too much in comics Demi. Torch gets put out with a fire extinguisher: "Well ok if they think so". Ice-Man can freeze blood: "Ok well if that's what they think". Thanos arrested: "I guess it's ok if they decide it".
I am not like that. If something is quite clearly off kilter and shit, I'm not going to acknowledge it nor agree with it.
I love the way the whole thing Vic and I raised about potential got dodged and not referred to again.
"alpha... its been stated so many times that the x-men train daily for several hours (excluding weekends)...almost every x-men has developed and evolved over the years..."
This is irrelevant though. If someone says "Oh yeah the X-Men train every day". That's realistic....humans go to the gym every day. They don't go in and come out looking like The Terminator just because they have the potential to look that way.
The fact is, Ice-Man was told he had potential to do all these things...........then he did them. Which is BS. You don't reach potential based on the fact that you know you've got it.
-AC