Living Tribunal vs. Lucifer Morningstar

Originally posted by Synchro
WOAH!!!! your list is massively exaggerated, Dizzle.

Not my list. It has been used quite a few times on this here forum, and I haven't seen anyone contest it until now... The Marvel ones are a different story, but whatever. I'm pretty sure Never made this one...

When Thanos had the HOTU, he was effectively made GOD. God, being God, can unmake whatever the hell he wants, LT, Lucy, and Michael, all rolled into a ball and multiplied times a billion if he wants to. God unmaking existance cannot be compared to some little explosion. Ok, fine, it was a big (demiurgic, haha, find some original words and stop trying to sound like you made it through high school) but it still can't be compared to God. LT wasn't killed. He was made so that he never existed.

LT has never shown his "full" power. It is infinite. He is a tool of God, his power is not his own power, but God's power. If God want's Lucifer dead, Lucifer dies.

If people actually understand the theory of the demiurgic explosion, it's obvious that Lucifer would survive it.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
thanos DESTROYED THE MULTIVERSE, not the universe, at such large scales theres no difference between unmaking and destroying, but for perspectives sake, ill tell u that that "DESTRUCTION" or unmaking, whatever it was destroyed every abstract includin infinity, eternity , n death, hey did i mention that it was the only time when THE ALMIGHTY LIVING TRIBUNAL WAS "KILLED" TOO!, so whatever it was, u can judge it by seein its affects on these ultra powerful entities.

???Killed? He absorbed LT. Thanos would beat Lucifer too. Funny huh, Lucifer can take a Multiverse explosion but is weakened too the point the Basinos were chasing him in his own cosmos no less. Ever seen LT being weakened by lower beings?

As for Lucifer, he needed his bother's help to create the Multiverse. Lucifer created parts of the universe (mainly the light) while Michael created everything else. Lucifer didn't create 50 % of the universes in the multiverse and Michael created the other 50 % of universes. He created half of a universe and Michael the other half, together both made the multiverse.

Lucifer killing his brother means what? His brother was the responsible for half the multiverse. Did you think it wasn't going to explode when a creator of it was destroyed? So it didn't even get a tan. Thanos didn't blow the Multiverse in LT's face. He absorbed LT.

not really, plus ur just tryin to prove things without evidence n dont wanna listen to anything to the contrary. as i said before THOTU does not give u power over the beyond realm , and it just gives u power over 1 MULTIVERSE, n lucifer has created MORE THAN 1 MULTIVERSES. im prettty sure that the one above all cud give lucifer trouble but not THOTU and definately not LT

"LT wasn't killed. He was made so that he never existed"
wat the hell does that mean, made to never exist=destruction

"LT has never shown his "full" power. It is infinite. He is a tool of God, his power is not his own power, but God's power"

right and if he had soooo much power than y did korvac escape his judgment and y cudnt he do a damn thing against the beyonder?

{think over these things before u answer n think up of a compelling argument atleast instead of bein stubborn}

"If God want's Lucifer dead, Lucifer dies"
not really, the DC god cudnt kill lucifer.

and u said it urself if GOD wanted lucifer to die, he dies, by GOD u mean THE ONE ABOVE ALL and not living tribunal, i have no problem with accepting the fact that THE ONE ABOVE ALL could kill lucifer in an instant if he wanted but LT, THOTU are not equal to the power of the one above all.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
not really, plus ur just tryin to prove things without evidence n dont wanna listen to anything to the contrary. as i said before THOTU does not give u power over the beyond realm , and it just gives u power over 1 MULTIVERSE, n lucifer has created MORE THAN 1 MULTIVERSES. im prettty sure that the one above all cud give lucifer trouble but not THOTU and definately not LT

"LT wasn't killed. He was made so that he never existed"
wat the hell does that mean, made to never exist=destruction

"LT has never shown his "full" power. It is infinite. He is a tool of God, his power is not his own power, but God's power"

right and if he had soooo much power than y did korvac escape his judgment and y cudnt he do a damn thing against the beyonder?

{think over these things before u answer n think up of a compelling argument atleast instead of bein stubborn}

"If God want's Lucifer dead, Lucifer dies"
not really, the DC god cudnt kill lucifer.

and u said it urself if GOD wanted lucifer to die, he dies, by GOD u mean THE ONE ABOVE ALL and not living tribunal, i have no problem with accepting the fact that THE ONE ABOVE ALL could kill lucifer in an instant if he wanted but LT, THOTU are not equal to the power of the one above all.

The Heart Of The Universe. Notice it's the Heart of The Universe, not the Multiverse? And yet it destroyed the Multiverse? Is the name missing leading? Yes. Does it only have power over the Multiverse? Where does it say that?

HOTU = God's power

Lucifer actually DID die. But he just told 'death' that she had no claim on him, and he got brought back to life by elaine

(I honestly don't know if there's a point arguing with a guy who seems to be putting Lucifer both above and below God in the same post...)

BUT ANYWAYS

So when, say a nuclear bomb, kills someone and completely obliterates tham, does that mean that they have never existed? No, of course not. Living Tribunal, along with the entire Marvel multiverse, was wiped from time itself. Everything was brought to the point before creation.

Living Tribunal cannot destroy things that God does not deem "worthy" of being destroyed. If it isn't an issue of cosmic balance, it is below LT.

And once again, you just said, in the same post, that DC God cannot kill Lucifer, but Marvel God can... Wow. (your apparent shaky literateness doesn't help your argument either, btw.)

what i meant to say by that comparison is that u really shudnt just say that just because LT is second to god means that he can kill lucifer because hes also second to god, theres a difference between the power of similar beings in marvel and dc. in dc, god is not all that powerful, and is not powerful anough to kill lucifer, but the marvel GOD{TOAA} most certainly DOES have the power to kill lucifer, however LT does NOT have the power to kill lucifer JUST BECAUSE HE IS SECOND TO GOD, GET IT!

and again ur not backin up ur argument with enough proof or evidence, its just UR OPPINION onhow things SHUD WORK OUT FOR U

So Lucifer is second to DCGod that can't destroy him and Living Tribunal is second to MGod that can destroy Lucifer? That leaves quite a window of possibility don't you think?

Course I already did provide a list putting a being that is much more comparable to, but not stronger than LT, (full powered Spectre) a few spots above Lucifer. Spectre, even at his maximum potential, is arguably weaker than LT because he needs to actually fight to get his job done and he requires a human host, where LT is simply an unbiased entity. Yet he's still above Lucifer at full power... LT>/=Spectre>Lucifer.

have u lost it Dizzle? it is understood that spaectre is BELOW lucifer

once when god seemingly vanished, spectre came to ask lucifer who was sunbathing. lucifer told him to stop blockin the sun's rays, n what do u think spectre did, he obediently steped outof the way. another time lucifer was mivin the moon when spectre came to ask y, lucifer told him to shut up and stay out of his busines..........which he obediently did, spectre is not on par with LT and definately not on par with lucifer or micheal.

lol. has any1 forgotten the beating spectre got from parallex?

again i ask, can LT make his own multiverse?

Originally posted by Beyonder
Next to GOD? Guess what? So is LT.

No, LT isnt next to God, he is next to the Marvel God and Lucifer/Michael are next to the DC God. You forgot that I still never agree with TOAA/Presence being with one.

Originally posted by Beyonder Yes, as lackeys created by the Presence to bring forth the Multiverse. And Lucifer needed his brother to create the entire Multiverse. And age does NOT equal power. So what if there created before the Multiverse? Does that prove that there going to be more powerful than someone came later into the Multiverse? Furthermore, can you prove that LT was created after the Multiverse was created?

No I dont have that many Marvel comic books to prove that LT was created after the Multiverse. But, as I posted in another thread, marveldirectory.com stated that the Living Tribunal existed AS LONG AS the Universe, which obviously means that he didnt exist before it, unless YOU can give me references that say otherwise.

Heck, now that I remember it, thats not even my point. Even if LT was created before the multiverse, the problem is not him but his power given by TOAA. TOAA gave him power OVER the Multiverse, not beyond it. You didnt see him obliterating the Beyonder, when he became a threat to the entire multiverse, did you???

Lucifer/Michael = Lackeys
LT = Lackey

Originally posted by Beyonder Destruction and Chaos are below LT. Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion/Choas/Order are all below the Infinity Gautlet. All of them including the IG is below LT. Fenris is still a planetary threat. Ragnorak happens to the Norse Gods. Not any other pantheon. Eternity is above such pantheons. LT is above Eternity.

Ive said this before, Im gonna say this again. Your understimating Fenris. And No. Fenris is a UNIVERSAL threat, read Lucifer #54. And again, because of that you cant expect a f*****d up Lucifer to avoid being conrolled. Your overestimating Lucy(which is an irony).

Originally posted by Beyonder And guess what? Lucifer has been weakened or hurt from beings existing in the Multiverse.

If Lucifer is so powerful, why is he constantly having to deal with beings lower in the totem pole than him? The fact that he's can be weakened or hurt says alot about his vulnerability to LT. As for LT only operating in the Multiverse and Lucifer exist before or outside, it isn't much of an argument since beings lower in power than LT who also exist in the Multiverse can and have effected Lucifer.

And tell me, who are this beings who have hurt Lucifer. I only know of Fenris and the Japanese Gods. And No. not the Basanos because Basanos was helped by Susano-O-No-Mikoto, a Japanese Storm God. If it was only the Basanos, the Basanos would have been the one who's dead, because Lucifer has already beaten him before, so is Susano-O.

The Japanese Gods have brought him to the brink of death, but guess what? He still beat the ENTIRE Japanese pantheon(Mind you that he beat them in his mortal, powerless form). As for Fenris, look above.

Now lets look at LT:

1. Wasnt able to do s**t against Korvac, despite not being injured and stuff. Instead, he locked him up.

2. Didnt do s**t at all against the Beyonder, even when he threatened the entire multiverse.

3. Wasnt able to anticipate Thanos getting the HOTU.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Not my list. It has been used quite a few times on this here forum, and I haven't seen anyone contest it until now... The Marvel ones are a different story, but whatever. I'm pretty sure Never made this one...

And that string of uncontested greatness, will be broken today. And I still say you prove it. And just a suggestion, next time, create your own list, stop relying on somebody else's.

And y'all can say whatever you want about the effect of the Demiurgic Explosion not being greater than Thanos' HOTU's effect. But the bottomline is, standing at ground zero of the explosion without getting a scratch is an astounding feat, and I have YET to see LT do a feat comparable to that.

Of course, as Ive said before, LT fans are welcome to point me out on a feat that can rival Lucifer's, and we'll discuss it.

ahhh finally sum1 that has a little sense

lol SYNCHRO its already proven that LT CANT do such a feat, becuase the only thing that mimicked the survival of the demiurgic explosion was the death of the mrvel multiverse by THOTU, n LT died in that, i know its not sumthin LT fans wanna admit.

actually LT was here before the Marvel Universe, remember a thing called dc/marvel cross over???? and also The DC/Marvel Brothers was re-conned as being below LT/Spectre, also i do believe a full powered Spectre is above LT or at least as powerful as him, he went after great beast and was holding his own for awhile but eventually did lose(he did not die anything protected by God won't die) note* The Spectre is the Wrath of God, LT is NOT the Wrath of God, they are both different. the Spectre is suppose to go around ANYWHERE HE WANTS and punish beings that deserve punished. LT is the Guardian of the Marvel Multiverse only and stays in the Marvel Multiverse (unless TOAA wants him to go somewhere else). also The Spectre does NOT need a human Host, the reason he has to be with a host is because when he was not, back when the Romans killed Jesus he was going to destroy the WHOLE world for killing Gods son, God then sent Michael down and he made the Spectre join with a human host so that he would have some kind of human compassion, sorta like Living Tribunal has 3 faces and all of the faces have to agree before any action is taken by the LT. the main reason LT lost i believe is because Thanos had some of Gods power with The Heart, however Lucifer was created from God himself and was half of Gods greatest creation next to Michael, if God created The Heart and God created Lucifer and has said NOBODY matches Lucifer or Michael not even with the Heart (which was created by God himself as well) would anyone win against Lucifer or Michael, Lucifer and Michael was the 1s that made Creation, something no one else has the power to do except The Presence., also Lucifer has punked out Spectre at least 2 times why would he do something like that knowing that Spectre at anytime could become Full Powered??? LUCIFER KNOWS he can win against a full powered Spectre, a full powered spectre would be at LT power level. Lucifer wins....................

What about the DC/Marvel crossover?

Originally posted by Beyonder

HOTU = God's power

I think HOTU=God power in terms or under condititon that he can do wahterver he wants, I think Thanos in HOTU would destroy Lucifer, I see no problem in that, but still God is also above The Heart Of The Universe and can (God) remove it from existence whenever he wants, for God it deosn't really matter, is it agiant Lucifer, or againt LT or HOTU, he can all move them out of existence.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
what i meant to say by that comparison is that u really shudnt just say that just because LT is second to god means that he can kill lucifer because hes also second to god, theres a difference between the power of similar beings in marvel and dc. in dc, god is not all that powerful, and is not powerful anough to kill lucifer, but the marvel GOD{TOAA} most certainly DOES have the power to kill lucifer, however LT does NOT have the power to kill lucifer JUST BECAUSE HE IS SECOND TO GOD, GET IT!

and again ur not backin up ur argument with enough proof or evidence, its just UR OPPINION onhow things SHUD WORK OUT FOR U

He leonheartmm, DC God=The Presenec=TOAA=Marvel God in power=trully Almighty and =he created Lucifer, I think he shoudl have no probelm destroying Lucifer, it's really sick you are comparing Lucifer to God, to his creator (not powerful enough to destroy him, but powerful enough to create being with such powers as Lucifer has), Lucifer powers come from fraction of God almightiness. Everyone can be destroyed, absolutely everyone, except God. Michael and Lucifer can't die by any means, beacuse they are supreme in DC, but there is one there is above them= God, so Lucifer and Michael can also be destroyed for good. Only God is forever and can make everyone dissaper form existnce. The Mulitverse Lucifer created, well God couldd also remove that Multivers in instant, if he wanted to.