The DC God could if he wanted kill Lucifer anytime he wanted, The Presence word is LAW. no one can argue with him without losing, they WILL LOSE. he created Michael and Lucifer if they are that powerful, The Presence must be so much more on another level then both of them, even if they had all of the Angels and everyone in DC/Vergito/Marvel and The Endless together to fight him he would still win very easy.
Originally posted by kevdude
The DC God could if he wanted kill Lucifer anytime he wanted, The Presence word is LAW. no one can argue with him without losing, they WILL LOSE. he created Michael and Lucifer if they are that powerful, The Presence must be so much more on another level then both of them, even if they had all of the Angels and everyone in DC/Vergito/Marvel and The Endless together to fight him he would still win very easy.
Excatly, the one with HOTU, LT, Lucifer, Michael, The Endless, Eternity, Spectre, in other word whole Marvel Universe and DC Universe, their battle against God would equal their destruction with ease. You cannot go up against God, that is the final word, no matter what you have or with limitles preparation, he will made you look like nothing.
Originally posted by leonheartmmThe difference was already explained multiple times. Thanos unmade everything. He wiped the entire slate clean.
lol SYNCHRO its already proven that LT CANT do such a feat, becuase the only thing that mimicked the survival of the demiurgic explosion was the death of the mrvel multiverse by THOTU, n LT died in that, i know its not sumthin LT fans wanna admit.
It's like if a bowling alley burned down but the metal vent on the top survived the fire. That metal vent would be Lucifer. What Thanos did was erase the entire alley out of exsistance.
actually all the arguments here are pretty pathetic really,
first off, the TRUE DC GOD is not GOD, its THE PRESENCE, therefore god does not have enough power to kill lucifer, end of story, he can also not destroy any of the multiverses lucifer builds{eg hell, or the new multiverse currently under lucifer}, lucifer has defeated god even without his powers just by his wit many times. lucifer can play with spectre, full power or not, like a ****in pussy. he is above living tribunal in every way possible, think about it, LT guards a SINGLE multiverse, LUCIFER creates multiverses as he pleases{with slightly less than 50% help from micheal}, he rules them as he pleases, he isnt relyant on them fro sustainance, n im not gonna repeat all the damn proof i gave again n again just cause people will start givin baseless arguments here.
and as far as the destruction of existnace goes with the HOTU, guess what ERASING ALL REALITY = DESTROYING ALL REALITY{these 2 different phrases wud say sumthin different in the physical world but not when whole damn multiverses are involved, THE END RESULT IS THE SAME} its just like sayin that DESTROYING GOD is not EQUAL to ERASING GOD swanky tuna, n thas just stupid, the fact of the matter is that the whole multiverse was destroyed in both this scenario and the demiurgic explosion, and from the way i saw it in the comics, a huge glowing INFERNO absorbed LT eternity and infinity n destroyed them, on the other hand lucifer didnt even get his hair ruffled while standing at ground zero of the end of a multiverse, he didnt even resist the power, meaning that he didnt even need to use his own power for protection, n thas that.
Scale doesn't matter, if the root of the powers destroying/erasing said multiverses are completely different in nature. Silver Surfer would never lose to Hulk. Hulk is physical power, Surfer is cosmic power. Surfer drains Hulk's power and the fight is over. The explosion was a physical power, Thanos w/ HOTU was not. Therefore the two cannot be compared. The problem with putting LT in fights in general is that he doesn't fight, he judges things and punishes them accordingly. Lucifer has to fight, however little effort it takes him to beat things.
Spectre can't go full power at will, he needs God behind him for that. Explain to me a time that the Presence sent Spectre specifically to destroy Lucifer and gave Spectre his maximum potential of power. Never happened. Spectre's power level is controlled by the Presence, as I'm pretty sure LT's is by TOAA.
well if we all want to get down to it the Lucifer comic book isn't part of DC its not even part of Vertigo its a comic book and universe set all in its own, so therefore anything that happens in lucifer should not really effect DC/Vergito universe.. and the Presence = God(Yahweh) does have the power to do whatever he wants... when has it ever been shown The Presence could not destroy Lucifer???? and how u are saying it The Presence is not God so God must be above The Presence....
u people are soo confusing. first off the demiurgic explosion was NOT JUST A PHYSICAL BOMB GOING OFF something like that can not destroy all of existance{just like the bnigbang was never really a bang}, it was just like the seeming inferno which destroyed thw hole marvel multiverse, ur argument on this is completely wrong.
secondly there is a dude in DC named GOD, he is NOT the presence{which is above GOD}, he has 2 sons{in a sense of the word} micheal and lucifer, and the spectar is the wrath of GOD not the presence, the presence is far more powerful than either god or lucifer or micheal or spectre. so u see, spectre's powers come from GOD, NOT the PRESENCE. the DC "GOD" has been killed before, the PRESENCE has NEVER been destroyed{or killed}, understand now?
now the presence easily has enough power to destroy lucifer but GOD does not have that kind of power, hes been beaten many times by various schemes of lucifer morningstar.
and for the last time, LIVING TRIBUNAL has the responsibilty of keeping balance in the SINGLE MARVEL MULTIVERSE, the extent of power that he has shown is the destruction of A FINITE NUMBER OF UNIVERSES, he has no power over the multiverse and does not have enough power to destroy the multiverse{this is simple logic because the very meaning of his existance is to keep the multiverse balanced}. it doesnt matter if he was given this responsibilty by TOAA, he still has limitations. and things happen in a much more greater scale in DC than they do in MARVEL{not that thas a good thing but its still a fact}, meaning that beings in DC who are not just a few steps below THE ULTIMATE POWER "CAN" be more powerful than beings in the marvel universe who R ONLY A FEW STEPS BELOW THE ULTIMATE POWER. the reason being that the power levels of both realities{marvel and dc} are not exactly similar.{just like the power level of the marvel universe and the street fighter universe are NOT the same}
SAINT OF KILLERS "KILLED" THE DC GOD ONCE, swamp thing came close to killing him. secondly god once left the loop of eternity n just left the mutliverse n we have seen that GOD is actually not a perfect being, he is infact corrupted in some sense.
no no no, GOD is just one SMALL face of THE PRESENCE. the PRESENCE consists of virtually EVERYTHING good or bad, abstract or direct, cosmic or average. the only thing thats not part of it is THE GREAT BEAST.
😆
This has to be the most long winded and at the same time, empty, thread I've read.
I can't believe that people are arguing degrees of supreme and can't see that it's a paradox. There is nothing higher than supreme. There's no "Your power may be Infinity, but my power is Infinity plus 1, so I'm more powerful!"
The Supreme Being is the Supreme Being. Period.
Marvel calls there's TOAA.
DC calls there's The Presence.
They are the supreme; omnipotent; nothing is greater; they have no equals.
Behind TOAA is LT, then behind LT comes everything else save a being wielding the power of TOAA, THOTU.
In DC, Behind The Presence you have beings like the Great Beast, The Endless, etc. And you have Michael and Lucifer.
LT's premise is that he has jurisdiction over anything below God/God's Power.
Lucifer's Premise is that he's the first creation, but he's not God.
At best, Lucifer and LT are equals. If not, LT would be the superior of the two.
If the Presence decided to start EVERYTHING over from a clean slate Lucifer would be gone, just as LT was when when Thanos ended EVERYTHING in Marvel.
The ability to create alternate universes or Multiverses is immaterial. Franklin Richards can create alternate universes with his powers.
It's an ability.
Some beings can alter reality or create alternate realities.
Surviving the 'demiurgic' explosion is immaterial. Galan who later became Galactus did that.
Lucifer is under "God's Power" (not supreme).
Tribunal has jurisdiction over everything under "God's Power" (not supreme).
Logically, it's either a stalemate or LT wins due to the premises of the two respective characters.
Now I won't say anything more on this topic.
Commence the insults and argumentx.
oh my god!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 u r unbelieveable, cud u actually READ ALL MY PREVIOUS POSTS. the demiurgic explosion was the DEATH OF A "MULTIVERSE", what galan survived was merely the REBIRTH of a UNIVERSE{not a multiverse} and THE TRIBUNAL "DIED" WHEN THE MARVEL MULTIVERSE WAS DESTROYED BY THOTU.
LUCIFER IS "NOT" under god, he is under THE PRESENCE.
TRIBUNAL has no power over ALL of god's world, hes just there to protect balance of the multiverse{just 1 multiverse}, he can destroy universes{not multiverses} at best. lucifer can actually CREATE A MULTIVERSE{hes created more than 1}. tribunal has NO power over the beyond realm and has no power over TRUE BEYONDERS.
and as far as the argument about franklin beeing able to create universes goes, wel id just like to say that FRANKLIN RICHARDS is one of the most powerful beings in the marvel world, he is actually ON PAR WITH BEINGS LIKE "LUCIFER" AND "MICHEAL"
ok again do not bring in Saint of Killers he is NOT PART OF DC/VERTIGO Continuity. Swamp thing did almost kill God, but in the end didn't. also i was wondering where The Word fits into all of this??? is the Word, God??? The Word is a Biblical term also used to describe God's manifestation in the physical world. It's also called the Logos. that would sorta mean The Word = God does it or not? also after The Presence created The Word the first Archangel, he created The First of the Fallen, the First is SATAN, after a argument The Presence cast him into hell, is the First = the Great Beast??? the Great Beast has been said to be the REAL SATAN as well. they BOTH have the same sorta history but have never been confirmed they are the same, they was both the First being to be in a hell of its own making.....
Originally posted by leonheartmmSo LT is second to only The One Above All and Lucifer is tied for third?
uh right, anyways swanky tuna, next time just for clarity's sake use the real name, when u mean god write GOD, when u mean the presence write PRESENCE, anyways lucifer is a son of GOD not the presence,{only thing is, this fake god is still way above the tribunal.
Originally posted by kevdude
well if we all want to get down to it the Lucifer comic book isn't part of DC its not even part of Vertigo its a comic book and universe set all in its own, so therefore anything that happens in lucifer should not really effect DC/Vergito universe.. and the Presence = God(Yahweh) does have the power to do whatever he wants... when has it ever been shown The Presence could not destroy Lucifer???? and how u are saying it The Presence is not God so God must be above The Presence....
Actually, Mike Carey(the Author of Lucifer) said in an article before, that the DC Universe and Vertigo Universe are actually the same(e.g Lucifer and Michael appearing in DC and other DC heroes appearing in Vertigo releases). Its just that there are some aspect that are different. Partly because the writers also wanted Vertigo to have some aspects that are unique and can only be found in it.
I think that would explain why the First of the Fallen never appeared in any Vertigo releases. The First of the Fallen was probably a character/aspect that only existed in DC and not in Vertigo. The writers probably agreed that the first and only angel(in Vertigo) that rebelled against God is Lucifer.
Ill try to find that article and post it in here. Although that was somewhat a year ago. So I cant guarantee it.
Also I think that would also explain about all this confusion about God is not Presence, etc. If thats not the case, then I suggest to lionheartmm to give us references to his claims.
Originally posted by illadelph12
😆This has to be the most long winded and at the same time, empty, thread I've read.
I can't believe that people are arguing degrees of supreme and can't see that it's a paradox. There is nothing higher than supreme. There's no "Your power may be Infinity, but my power is Infinity plus 1, so I'm more powerful!"
The Supreme Being is the Supreme Being. Period.
Marvel calls there's TOAA.
DC calls there's The Presence.
They are the supreme; omnipotent; nothing is greater; they have no equals.
Behind TOAA is LT, then behind LT comes everything else save a being wielding the power of TOAA, THOTU.
In DC, Behind The Presence you have beings like the Great Beast, The Endless, etc. And you have Michael and Lucifer.
LT's premise is that he has jurisdiction over anything below God/God's Power.
Lucifer's Premise is that he's the first creation, but he's not God.
At best, Lucifer and LT are equals. If not, LT would be the superior of the two.
If the Presence decided to start EVERYTHING over from a clean slate Lucifer would be gone, just as LT was when when Thanos ended EVERYTHING in Marvel.
The ability to create alternate universes or Multiverses is immaterial. Franklin Richards can create alternate universes with his powers.
It's an ability.
Some beings can alter reality or create alternate realities.
Surviving the 'demiurgic' explosion is immaterial. Galan who later became Galactus did that.
Lucifer is under "God's Power" (not supreme).
Tribunal has jurisdiction over everything under "God's Power" (not supreme).
Logically, it's either a stalemate or LT wins due to the premises of the two respective characters.
Now I won't say anything more on this topic.
Commence the insults and argumentx.
Im not gonna even try to argue with someone who surely wont reply back. Especially when his reasons were already addressed in the previous pages.