Christians dont love God............

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
A Fair claim. I do not see any reason to denounce it. But after reading
my previous statement, can you sincerely blame me for not thinking your
God is rather superficial? Read my last post again, and then answer
once more.

Hmmm...it would appear that it is not I who have to do the re-reading.
The problem is not with "Love" Urizen, but once again - it is with your
"understanding" of it. The fact that you now have difficulty
understanding simple concepts regarding what it truly means to
"worship"(cherish) "Love"(God) only further demonstrates this.

I truly do have sympathy with you in this regard, but it is a path that
you have choosen for yourself, seeing as how "Love" cannot force you to "worship" it -- for if it did, then it could not call itself "Love" -
now could it?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If God or Christ truly are the embodyments of Love, then we all possess
that God yes. Whether we are aware of it or not. Those who are full of
Hatred (which includes Christians and Athiests alike) do not tap into
that "God" inside them.

That is a theory based on the possibility that Jesus may be Love
embodied. I do not claim it as fact, and I think we discussed this before.

Whether you believe Christ to be the "embodyment" of "Love" or not, at
the very least, anyone with a tiny bit of intellect, and a smidgen of
common sense(roughly 99.99% of the world) -- could draw the obvious conclusion that Christ, at the very least - was a truly "Love" filled man. History tells us this, as he spent the last few years of his
life, helping others who could not help themselves.

If "Love" is truly within you as you claim, then ideally you would show much admiration, respect, and devotion to someone such as Christ, as well as to his principles. However, you have consistently demonstrated this not to be the case -- making baseless attacks against those who believe in "Christ", even going as far as posting lude, lascivious and disrespectful comments about him within your profile.

But let us suppose that some of your anger towards Christ, is based on
some of the actions of his followers(which I will handily admit -- is not
"Christ" like at times - and you can be for certain, that each one will
be judged according to their un-Christ like actions.)

Would it still be logical to hate such a loving "man", because a few who claimed to "worship" him offended you?

Let's not kid ourselves with the answer to this Urizen. There is no logical reason for you to "hate" a man filled with an abundance of "Love" such as Christ, and one who has "hate" for such a truly loving individual - does not truly have "Love" within them.(This of course, is using the term "man" loosely for the sake of argument, as Christ is undoubtly God in my book)

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Can you truly define the essense of Hate? And i mean really, not just
"oh, hate is the spirit of satan".....

Heh..Heh..Heh. Of course not -- " to hate" is just another aspect of this thing we call "Love." It is a feeling or emotion - that from the Christian perspective is used to represent the "righteous anger" and general disdain a loving person should have when confronted with unloving behaviour. God himself states that he "hates" many things in the bible(lying, sexual immorality, and stealing to name a few) He even at one point stated that he hated Israel, his most cherished people, due to their unloving behaviour. Those truly perfected in "Love", know how to use this emotion called "hate" effectively, particularly when it involves preventing and/or stopping such behavior from occuring.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Just because we cannot fully grasp or recognize something does not mean it doesn't exist or we don't have it. Can you fully define your mind ? You know you have one, but what exactly is your mind ?

Likewise, I beleive we all individualize this force known as
Love. My version of Love differs from your version of Love, but we are
both correct.

We take this force we inherit, and make it our own.

Translated - "Me, me, me, me -- Yeaaah Me!! I'm so great, I love this way, I love that way, I know so much, my individuality means so much to me. Me, me, me, me, me, me, me... Yeaaah Me!!"

He..he..he..

Did you ever stop to think just once Urizen, that rather than looking
inward, the true purpose of "Love" is to look outward? Take the time to
think about this simple argument for awhile.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I beleive that Love should be unconditional. There should not be
a price for love, and if there is a price, then it is not true love
(atleast not by my beliefs). Love does not envy, it does not judge, it
does not discriminate, it does not blackmail, it attempts to disconnect
itself from all hatred and ignorance.

"My Love is based on existance for its own sake. It is based on
unity, understanding, empathy, compassion, forgiveness, and other
aspects I deem as beneficial.

I beleive that your version of Love is based on a desire to save people
from what you deem "damnation". You truly beleive that those who do not worship your God are going to end up in Hell for all eternity, and you do not want that for them.

That is a very honorable and compassionate desire you have, to "save
us" and I deem that your Love, which is no lesser or greater than
my own.

But likewise, i beleive that Hell and your religion are based on myths
borrowed from ancient mythologies. Love cannot produce Hell. A truly
loving God would not create a place of eternal torment for those who do
not obey him...that is sadistic, controlling, and evil.

Out of all of the things you listed above representing "Love" -- you
seemed to have inadvertently(or perhaps pruposely - not my call judgement call though) left out one of the most important aspects. That aspect being righteousnous. To myself and many others, a loving God Urizen -- will be fully righteous, and not want to see evil go unpunished. He will not turn the other cheek when he sees an innocent slaughtered. He will not lie to himself and others, just to retain a friendship or receive a reward. If one truly possesses "Love", then they will also demonstrate righteousnous -- in all that they do.

In regards to the rest of your other arguments, they all have already been adressed in this post and the previous one. I have no desire to repeat myself multiple pages - nor argue with you in circles.(which seems to be somthing that you like to do) So I will let this be my final post on this topic.

I truly hope you find the "Love" that you are looking for - and that you are able to accept whatever it is that comes along with it.

Good day to you. And God Bless.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Hmmm...it would appear that it is not I who have to do the re-reading.

You know Usagi...at first I chose not to waste my time giving you a response, because is it painfully clear that not only have you not truly read into my arguments, but you didn't really answer any of my points. You simply ranted about trying to accuse me of hating Jesus Christ and not knowing what Love really is, because "you supposedly do".

You have failed with both claims...and Since I have no respect for the ignorant, I would find it hypocritical if I simly ignored you and not provided you with a rebuttle in the very least:

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
The problem is not with "Love" Urizen, but once again - it is with your
"understanding" of it. The fact that you now have difficulty
understanding simple concepts regarding what it truly means to
"worship"(cherish) "Love"(God) only further demonstrates this.

What exactly are you talking about ? What do you base this assertion on ? I have made NO claim on the "love of God"....I did not aim to define your idea of worship or your idea of Love in the very least.

I aimed to question your position, and you haven't even bothered to provide me with an answer. You instead take the pathetic route to try and demean my arguments by saying you "pity" me for not understanding your flawed religion.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
I truly do have sympathy with you in this regard, but it is a path that
you have choosen for yourself, seeing as how "Love" cannot force you to "worship" it -- for if it did, then it could not call itself "Love" -
now could it?

Just because I do not worship your mythical God does not mean I don't know Love....please stop confusing the two. Love is real, your God is imaginary.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Whether you believe Christ to be the "embodyment" of "Love" or not, at
the very least, anyone with a tiny bit of intellect, and a smidgen of
common sense(roughly 99.99% of the world) -- could draw the obvious conclusion that Christ, at the very least - was a truly "Love" filled man. History tells us this, as he spent the last few years of his
life, helping others who could not help themselves.

I know Jesus was a very Loving Man. As was Buddha. I never claimed otherwise. ❌

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
If "Love" is truly within you as you claim, then ideally you would show much admiration, respect, and devotion to someone such as Christ, as well as to his principles.

I DO ✅ I respect Jesus Christ as a human being very much so.

I have no respect, however, for many of the hypocrits who have called themselves Christians throughout history and today.

I also have no respect for a mythical God that creates a place of eternal torture for those who disobey him. That is not love. How do you not understand that ?

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
However, you have consistently demonstrated this not to be the case -- making baseless attacks against those who believe in "Christ", even going as far as posting lude, lascivious and disrespectful comments about him within your profile.

I attack those I see as Hypocrits regardless of whatever religion, faith, or beleif system they hold. I also attack Athiest Liberals just as much as Conservative Christians and Muslims. This accusation you make shows how little about me you truly know.

That comment about Christ on my profile is a joke, and is only offensive tto conservative eyes like you own. Me, being gay, find nothing offensive about it.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
But let us suppose that some of your anger towards Christ, is based on
some of the actions of his followers(which I will handily admit -- is not
"Christ" like at times - and you can be for certain, that each one will
be judged according to their un-Christ like actions.)

1) I have no anger towards Christ. Get that through your head.

2) Your second claim is not Fact. Only beleif which is no more valid than my own.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Would it still be logical to hate such a loving "man", because a few who claimed to "worship" him offended you?

I do not hate Jesus Christ. That is what you don't get. I don't even Hate many of the Christian idiots I debate with on these forums. I just do not beleive.

Is that the same as HATRED? Not beleiving ? Is that your definition? So I don't worship your God, that means I hate him ?

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Let's not kid ourselves with the answer to this Urizen. There is no logical reason for you to "hate" a man filled with an abundance of "Love" such as Christ, and one who has "hate" for such a truly loving individual - does not truly have "Love" within them.(This of course, is using the term "man" loosely for the sake of argument, as Christ is undoubtly God in my book)

Please read the above, as you are Horribly mistaken as to what my stance on the matter actually is. ✅

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Heh..Heh..Heh. Of course not -- " to hate" is just another aspect of this thing we call "Love." It is a feeling or emotion - that from the Christian perspective is used to represent the "righteous anger" and general disdain a loving person should have when confronted with unloving behaviour. God himself states that he "hates" many things in the bible(lying, sexual immorality, and stealing to name a few) He even at one point stated that he hated Israel, his most cherished people, due to their unloving behaviour. Those truly perfected in "Love", know how to use this emotion called "hate" effectively, particularly when it involves preventing and/or stopping such behavior from occuring.

This is where I beg to differ....You cannot Hate someone you Love. The two cannot exist at the same time, same moment, for the same person. It is a contradiction.....well, then again your Bible is flooded with contradictions, so i am not surprised this is a contradiction you accept.

I do not care about your argument that when you "Love someone" you punish them to show them the error of their ways.

FOR GOD TO CREATE HELL FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELEIVE IN HIM, IS NOT ONLY SADISTIC, HATEFUL, DISGUSTING, IMMATURE, AND BLACKMAIL.....BUT IT IS ALSO UNREALISTIC.

This is what you never bother to answer. You pretend this point doesn't exist, when this is the BIGGEST problem Athiests and people of other Faiths have with your religion.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Translated - "Me, me, me, me -- Yeaaah Me!! I'm so great, I love this way, I love that way, I know so much, my individuality means so much to me. Me, me, me, me, me, me, me... Yeaaah Me!!"

Wow...what a successful way to DODGE my points and prevent yourself from looking stupid...oh wait, you failed the latter....

Where the f*ck in the above post do you see ANY reference to myself, much less conceited admiration for myself ?

Read it again you Blind little Christian.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
He..he..he..

Sounds like Satan's laugh....actually God's laugh when he burnt the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha, sent the plagues to Egypt, sent the Angel of Death to kill the 1st born sons of Egypt, and how he will laugh when he sends his own children to Hell....according to your myth.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Did you ever stop to think just once Urizen, that rather than looking
inward, the true purpose of "Love" is to look outward? Take the time to
think about this simple argument for awhile.

I always beleived that. You are such a hypocrit.....To you Love is only based on Christ, which is a closed minded, narrow, and ignorant beleif. Then you dare tell me to look outward?

😆

Hypocrisy is the most common Christian flaw

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Out of all of the things you listed above representing "Love" -- you
seemed to have inadvertently(or perhaps pruposely - not my call judgement call though) left out one of the most important aspects. That aspect being righteousnous. To myself and many others, a loving God Urizen -- will be fully righteous, and not want to see evil go unpunished..

Let's Investigate this point, shall we ? I promise you, instead of ignoring and avoiding direct response to your points, like you do mine, I will answer your points directly:

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
He will not turn the other cheek when he sees an innocent slaughtered. .

Innocents slaughtered? You mean like when God sent the Angel of Death to slaughter the first born children of Egypt, as a way to get back at the Pharoah?

Ah yes....YOU GET EM GOD ! YOU GET THOSE INFIDELS ! LET THEM BURN AND FEEL YOUR LOVING WRATHH !!!!

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
He will not lie to himself and others, just to retain a friendship or receive a reward. .

I think God lied about his existance 😆

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
If one truly possesses "Love", then they will also demonstrate righteousnous -- in all that they do.

Does that righteousness include punishing people who don't beleive in God? Taking away thier civil rights? Limitting thier freedom and keeping them in a mental cage? Sounds realllll loving to me 🙄

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
In regards to the rest of your other arguments, they all have already been adressed in this post and the previous one. I have no desire to repeat myself multiple pages - nor argue with you in circles.(which seems to be somthing that you like to do) So I will let this be my final post on this topic.

No they have not. You have dogded all my points, and tried to twist my words into something else. You call my skepticism of your dumb religion a "hatred of Christ". How absurd.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
I truly hope you find the "Love" that you are looking for - and that you are able to accept whatever it is that comes along with it.

If I haven't found it, I wouldn't claim it already.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Good day to you Sir and God Bless

Oh please stop saying that bullshit....it sounds so fake.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Why does God need anything from us? "He" is supposedly infinite and complete. Human Beings need eachother, God needs nothing from us if he is truly all powerful.

His desire to be worshipped is pathetic and superficial at best

"Do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased" Hebrews 13:16.

Most gods say that.

Originally posted by Alliance
Most gods say that.

Originally posted by Nellinator
God does necessarily desire that he be worshipped. God simply does not want us to be lead astray, but false gods, peer pressure, etc. God wants us to be good people that help others.

"Do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased" Hebrews 13:16.

Although if we attempted to emulate God... what would happen? It wouldn't end well surely, since God himself has done things that, if done by a human, would qualify as the worst of crimes. So he doesn't lead by example - it is a more dictatorial "Worship me and do as I say and you won't be taken out by the secret police" kind of thing.

And he doesn't do it very clearly. It seems awfully convoluted to try and stop people being bad by saying "worship me so you will be distracted from all the misleading aspects of life" - why no explain it clearer? Why not act like an actual parent and do a bit of interacting?

Besides - since there is no proof that a non-believer is any more prone to being mislead or doing bad things it is a shaky argument. All good non-believers simply end up being guilty of being non-believers. The quality of sin looses meaning if simply joining the Christian club voids its mark. So the only real sin is non-belief.

A person can commit crimes which God has judged "bad" but they will be removed if one accepts Jesus. A non-believer however can theoretically be sent to hell due to his non-belief as it can't wash away the little things that haven't actually harmed anyone but which still Biblically bad. Essentially belief is first and foremost with God.

Originally posted by Nellinator
But so eloquently. 😉

Depends on the translation I guess and how much it is embellished.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Although if we attempted to emulate God... what would happen? It wouldn't end well surely, since God himself has done things that, if done by a human, would qualify as the worst of crimes. So he doesn't lead by example - it is a more dictatorial "Worship me and do as I say and you won't be taken out by the secret police" kind of thing.

And he doesn't do it very clearly. It seems awfully convoluted to try and stop people being bad by saying "worship me so you will be distracted from all the misleading aspects of life" - why no explain it clearer? Why not act like an actual parent and do a bit of interacting?

Besides - since there is no proof that a non-believer is any more prone to being mislead or doing bad things it is a shaky argument. All good non-believers simply end up being guilty of being non-believers. The quality of sin looses meaning if simply joining the Christian club voids its mark. So the only real sin is non-belief.

A person can commit crimes which God has judged "bad" but they will be removed if one accepts Jesus. A non-believer however can theoretically be sent to hell due to his non-belief as it can't wash away the little things that haven't actually harmed anyone but which still Biblically bad. Essentially belief is first and foremost with God.

Originally posted by Nellinator
God does interact. A lot. I've seen the argument that God should not need to interact at all. I've seen people argue that God should be impersonal and not interfere or interact with our lives because that would be a flaw.
God makes it quite clear that He loves us and wants to know us. God wants us to be in heaven. God reveals himself in many ways, some obvious, some mysterious. When one chooses not to believe it is a lot like saying that they don't want to go to heaven. God leaves it as their choice. A good person that does not want to go to heaven does not have to. Its their choice.

Actually it seems to me we have a lot of claims he interacts and not a whole lot of evidence to support that.

Biblical Claims - Well, they aren't that verifiable, are they? And plenty aren't nice "drown the world" "Kill Egyptian Children" "Let Satan do his worst to Job" "Tell Abraham to kill his son in order to test faith" "send Jesus to be killed by sinners so the sinners may be forgiven for all sins including killing Jesus if they ask" and so on.

Modern Claims - CLAIMS.

And when we choose not to believe it is like we choose not to go to heaven? In the unbelief heaven also doesn't exist. And that unbelief is usually not based upon pig headed stubbornness. It is based on the fact the nonbelievers see no proof to justify that belief.

So many imply that a lot of atheists are given a truck load of proof and still chose not to believe. And one has to ask - when one is in doubt, when one feels there is a lack of evidence supporting something - what is the best way to dispel that evidence?

A. Provide proof, be it saying "I love you" or a scientific paper, but proof

OR

B. Sit in heaven and say "hey, I think you've got more then enough to work with, if that's not good enough for you, well, you can go to hell. Literally. Whats that? The "evidence" I have given them isn't historically, scientifically or even legally applicable? Take a leap of faith you pansies. Or go to Hell."

Usually I think a. works the best. Look at why the person has doubts, provide information to combat those doubts. But God, who wants us on the straight and narrow - doesn't. Humans claims all sorts of things, but when I look at my window I know there are dozens of religions claiming the same thing. All with the same level of evidence supporting them. God doesn't want to convince me or any number of others? I don't see how that is the fault of the atheist. If I went around putting my money into African bank accounts because an email said "this is true, I am a prince who needs to get money out of my country" - I would be an idiot. But apparently because I doubt the religious claims of others I am unreasonable and missing out on so much (which incidently can't be obtained till after death and as such can't be proven on earth.)

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Actually it seems to me we have a lot of claims he interacts and not a whole lot of evidence to support that.

Biblical Claims - Well, they aren't that verifiable, are they? And plenty aren't nice "drown the world" "Kill Egyptian Children" "Let Satan do his worst to Job" "Tell Abraham to kill his son in order to test faith" "send Jesus to be killed by sinners so the sinners may be forgiven for all sins including killing Jesus if they ask" and so on.

Modern Claims - CLAIMS.

And when we choose not to believe it is like we choose not to go to heaven? In the unbelief heaven also doesn't exist. And that unbelief is usually not based upon pig headed stubbornness. It is based on the fact the nonbelievers see no proof to justify that belief.

So many imply that a lot of atheists are given a truck load of proof and still chose not to believe. And one has to ask - when one is in doubt, when one feels there is a lack of evidence supporting something - what is the best way to dispel that evidence?

A. Provide proof, be it saying "I love you" or a scientific paper, but proof

OR

B. Sit in heaven and say "hey, I think you've got more then enough to work with, if that's not good enough for you, well, you can go to hell. Literally. Whats that? The "evidence" I have given them isn't historically, scientifically or even legally applicable? Take a leap of faith you pansies. Or go to Hell."

Usually I think a. works the best. Look at why the person has doubts, provide information to combat those doubts. But God, who wants us on the straight and narrow - doesn't. Humans claims all sorts of things, but when I look at my window I know there are dozens of religions claiming the same thing. All with the same level of evidence supporting them. God doesn't want to convince me or any number of others? I don't see how that is the fault of the atheist. If I went around putting my money into African bank accounts because an email said "this is true, I am a prince who needs to get money out of my country" - I would be an idiot. But apparently because I doubt the religious claims of others I am unreasonable and missing out on so much (which incidently can't be obtained till after death and as such can't be proven on earth.)

A verse just came to my mind...
"You will seek me and you will find me when you seek me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13

And another actually...
"...seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."
Matthew 7:7

I haven't been a Christian very long, but I can tell you that you will find Jesus when you look FOR him.

Originally posted by Nellinator
God does interact. A lot.

Originally posted by Alliance
I have yet to see any interaction. I have yeat to hear of any validated interaction.

Originally posted by Nellinator
It might help if you looked for evidence for God instead of for evidence against God.

A verse just came to my mind...
"You will seek me and you will find me when you seek me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13

And another actually...
"...seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."
Matthew 7:7

I haven't been a Christian very long, but I can tell you that you will find Jesus when you look FOR him.

The problem is I have done so, and apparently many others have as well, and found nothing. The Bible quotes don't reveal anything really - besides I have seen nothing that can't be explained better with science or nature or human ingenuity.

And as a recent author noted - one might not be able to prove God empirically, but you can certainly find against him.

And it is damning, to me, if a God is unable to support itself with evidence. At least in ancient times every time they heard a clap of thunder or saw the sun move that was proving their was a god. But now?

How about healing miracles?

Scientific verification?

Speaking in tongues?

Christian themselves are often dubious on this.

Exorcisms?

Once again alot of Christians themselves disregard this, even the Catholics keep exorcists on short leashes.

Any gifts of the spirit?

What are these? Christians doing good things? Since Atheists and non-Christians do good things as well it doesn't seem like proof.

How about changed lives?

Cults, philosophy, education, other religions, drugs, tragedy, music, illness etc - many things change lives. I don't see how God is in any way proven because people claim "religion turned me around" - plenty of people have their lives changed through other means, both real and not.

How about prayer?

What about it?

HOW ABOUT JESUS? That was a pretty big and personal interaction.

What about him? If he existed? If he did the things the Bible says? If he was divine? He certainly doesn't seem to wander around earth much today.

Originally posted by Nellinator
How about healing miracles?

Originally posted by Nellinator
Speaking in tongues?

Originally posted by Nellinator
Exorcisms?

Originally posted by Nellinator
Any gifts of the spirit?

Originally posted by Nellinator
How about changed lives?

Originally posted by Nellinator
How about prayer?

Originally posted by Nellinator
HOW ABOUT JESUS? That was a pretty big and personal interaction.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
The problem is I have done so, and apparently many others have as well, and found nothing. The Bible quotes don't reveal anything really - besides I have seen nothing that can't be explained better with science or nature or human ingenuity.

And as a recent author noted - one might not be able to prove God empirically, but you can certainly find against him.

And it is damning, to me, if a God is unable to support itself with evidence. At least in ancient times every time they heard a clap of thunder or saw the sun move that was proving their was a god. But now?

Scientific verification?

Christian themselves are often dubious on this.

Once again alot of Christians themselves disregard this, even the Catholics keep exorcists on short leashes.

What are these? Christians doing good things? Since Atheists and non-Christians do good things as well it doesn't seem like proof.

Cults, philosophy, education, other religions, drugs, tragedy, music, illness etc - many things change lives. I don't see how God is in any way proven because people claim "religion turned me around" - plenty of people have their lives changed through other means, both real and not.

What about it?

What about him? If he existed? If he did the things the Bible says? If he was divine? He certainly doesn't seem to wander around earth much today.

Any Christian denying speaking in tongues usually does so because they themselves have never done it, don't have that gift, or are afraid of it because they don't understand it. It is fact that rural people with one language and no exposure to Mandarin Chinese have praised the Lord in that language. I have also heard Spanish. Disappointingly, a lot (most actually) of Christians speak in tongues without a translator or one gifted with the interpretation of tongues present and therefore the usage was useless and unverifiable. But it does actually happen and has been verified.

Exorcists are kept on a short lease because a lot of Christians fear the matter. And not without reason because some of it is truly terrifying. Others are ignorant. However, it does occur and it does work when done correctly, I have seen it.

Gifts of the spirit are not good deeds. They include speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, gift of prophesy, gifts of healing, gift of miracles, the gift of the discernment of spirits, the gift of the impartation of faith, and other such things. Each is supernatural and very real although some may be harder to distinguish than others.

A true argument, however, that does not change the fact that God does change lives.

If you have ever really prayed you would know that it is personal moment with God where you talk to Him and often He talks back. Sometimes in different forms such as emotions, ideas, or feelings, but sometimes as words.

How can there be doubt as to whether Jesus existed? He was definitely real, to say otherwise is ignorance. Jesus came to Earth and interacted with people. There is good evidence that he actually did perform many miraculous deeds. Jesus was real and the Bible is a testament to his interaction with people. To how he treated and talked to people. To how he had a servant's heart and helped people.

Originally posted by Nellinator
If you seriously never heard of a miraculously healing you haven't looked. I've seen people who have been paralyzed for years get up and walk at a word. Google or look it up at your university because you should be able to find all sorts of verification of such things. Paranormal things whether pertaining to Christianity or not, do happen.

Any Christian denying speaking in tongues usually does so because they themselves have never done it, don't have that gift, or are afraid of it because they don't understand it. It is fact that rural people with one language and no exposure to Mandarin Chinese have praised the Lord in that language. I have also heard Spanish. Disappointingly, a lot (most actually) of Christians speak in tongues without a translator or one gifted with the interpretation of tongues present and therefore the usage was useless and unverifiable. But it does actually happen and has been verified.

Exorcists are kept on a short lease because a lot of Christians fear the matter. And not without reason because some of it is truly terrifying. Others are ignorant. However, it does occur and it does work when done correctly, I have seen it.

Gifts of the spirit are not good deeds. They include speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, gift of prophesy, gifts of healing, gift of miracles, the gift of the discernment of spirits, the gift of the impartation of faith, and other such things. Each is supernatural and very real although some may be harder to distinguish than others.

A true argument, however, that does not change the fact that God does change lives.

If you have ever really prayed you would know that it is personal moment with God where you talk to Him and often He talks back. Sometimes in different forms such as emotions, ideas, or feelings, but sometimes as words.

How can there be doubt as to whether Jesus existed? He was definitely real, to say otherwise is ignorance. Jesus came to Earth and interacted with people. There is good evidence that he actually did perform many miraculous deeds. Jesus was real and the Bible is a testament to his interaction with people. To how he treated and talked to people. To how he had a servant's heart and helped people.

Well, he has more intelligence than JIA, but he's still preaching to an empty audience.

Bible = Work of fiction based on truths / half truths that may or may not have happened.

For the love of Christ, it's called a metaphor people.

If you seriously never heard of a miraculously healing you haven't looked. I've seen people who have been paralyzed for years get up and walk at a word. Google or look it up at your university because you should be able to find all sorts of verification of such things. Paranormal things whether pertaining to Christianity or not, do happen.

People claim it happens. There is a reason though it is yet to enter the realm of fact - insufficient evidence. I have always been interested in the paranormal, but the interest does not stop me being skeptical - due to lack of proof.

And if we want to go down that path - well, there is a lot of paranormal stuff, including healing, that has no obvious links to God. So we would suddenly have the claim of people being cured of diseases along with those claiming aliens cured them (five stories I can think of), claiming crystals, claiming mental powers did it...

Any Christian denying speaking in tongues usually does so because they themselves have never done it, don't have that gift, or are afraid of it because they don't understand it. It is fact that rural people with one language and no exposure to Mandarin Chinese have praised the Lord in that language. I have also heard Spanish. Disappointingly, a lot (most actually) of Christians speak in tongues without a translator or one gifted with the interpretation of tongues present and therefore the usage was useless and unverifiable. But it does actually happen and has been verified.

And people claim their children who play music are evidence of reincarnation. It doesn't fill me with confidence when the Christian community can't decide amongst itself what is proof, what is real and so on.

Exorcists are kept on a short lease because a lot of Christians fear the matter. And not without reason because some of it is truly terrifying. Others are ignorant. However, it does occur and it does work when done correctly, I have seen it.

Maybe it is Australia, no Christian I know believes in it, and some of them are pretty steadfast Christians. And there has been science in the area that claims it can be attributed to many things that are in no way supernatural.

Gifts of the spirit are not good deeds. They include speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, gift of prophesy, gifts of healing, gift of miracles, the gift of the discernment of spirits, the gift of the impartation of faith, and other such things. Each is supernatural and very real although some may be harder to distinguish than others.

Ah - all those uncertain fields no two Christians agree on.

A true argument, however, that does not change the fact that God does change lives.

No, I see people change their lives. The question is motivation. Many of those "God changed my life" stories I have seen make me think " if it wasn't God then it would be some other religion, some philosophy. People change lives, God's are merely conceptual motivators.

If you have ever really prayed you would know that it is personal moment with God where you talk to Him and often He talks back. Sometimes in different forms such as emotions, ideas, or feelings, but sometimes as words.

Well, I question God's form of communication, I did the whole prayer thing every tuesday for two years. As an impressionable child. In scripture. And nothing happened.

How can there be doubt as to whether Jesus existed? He was definitely real, to say otherwise is ignorance. Jesus came to Earth and interacted with people. There is good evidence that he actually did perform many miraculous deeds. Jesus was real and the Bible is a testament to his interaction with people. To how he treated and talked to people. To how he had a servant's heart and helped people.

I know of a lot of historians who would disagree.

Originally posted by Nellinator
God does necessarily desire that he be worshipped. God simply does not want us to be lead astray, but false gods, peer pressure, etc. God wants us to be good people that help others.

"Do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased" Hebrews 13:16.

As long as God's goal is to get us to care for eachother then I'm fine with it. However, the God of the Bible seems to have other agendas as well.

And sadly to say, even though thier are very empathetic and intelligent Christians like yourself, there are also idiotic, hateful, and ignorant Christians like Sonnet and Marcello....and then there are just blind ones like Usagi and JIA.

Originally posted by Nellinator
HOW ABOUT JESUS? That was a pretty big and personal interaction.

Yeah, it was so big that god has decided to sit back and do nothing else for the last 2000 years...other than show up in the shape of Mary in a piss stain under an overpass or a strange burn mark on a piece of toast.