Christians dont love God............

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
People claim it happens. There is a reason though it is yet to enter the realm of fact - insufficient evidence. I have always been interested in the paranormal, but the interest does not stop me being skeptical - due to lack of proof.

And if we want to go down that path - well, there is a lot of paranormal stuff, including healing, that has no obvious links to God. So we would suddenly have the claim of people being cured of diseases along with those claiming aliens cured them (five stories I can think of), claiming crystals, claiming mental powers did it...

And people claim their children who play music are evidence of reincarnation. It doesn't fill me with confidence when the Christian community can't decide amongst itself what is proof, what is real and so on.

Maybe it is Australia, no Christian I know believes in it, and some of them are pretty steadfast Christians. And there has been science in the area that claims it can be attributed to many things that are in no way supernatural.

Ah - all those uncertain fields no two Christians agree on.

No, I see people change their lives. The question is motivation. Many of those "God changed my life" stories I have seen make me think " if it wasn't God then it would be some other religion, some philosophy. People change lives, God's are merely conceptual motivators.

Well, I question God's form of communication, I did the whole prayer thing every tuesday for two years. As an impressionable child. In scripture. And nothing happened.

I know of a lot of historians who would disagree.

As a musician I can tell you that some people have an extraordinary gift. Proof of reincarnation? I see absolutely no evidence of that.

I am surprised to hear you say that no Christians you know in Australia believe in exorcism. Australia is home to the Hillsong movement which definitely believes in the casting out of demons. The gifts of the Spirit are in the Bible and are used frequently throughout the world. Christians that deny the existence of these gifts are ignorant of the Word or fearful because they do not understand. I think it is pathetic when Christians deny the gifts of the Spirit.

Once again it is true argument. But if even the idea of God produces changed lives it could be evidence of something greater. And that is all that I can say on that matter.

I would suggest that you were not connecting with God in your prayers then. Prayers are powerful and they get results.

Historians who would disagree are either ignorant or idiots. There is more evidence of Jesus's existence than there is of most other people from that area at that time.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Yes, there are a lot of paranormal things in the world. We must discern which are from God and which are not. Satan and his demons are not powerless in the world. They deceive, and thereby draw people away from God.

Uh huh. So all things, even the things that point away from God are actually proof? I don't think it works like that. And that doesn't deal with the fact that they remain fringe theories and pseudoscience because of the lack of evidence. It is the same lack of evidence that lets people claim lizards rule the earth in secret and that our souls were exiled here by some Scientological big bad. And they all claim proof of what they say - but is is false proof that only works on leaps of faith because there is no science, no statistic behind any of it.

As a musician I can tell you that some people have an extraordinary gift. Proof of reincarnation? I see absolutely no evidence of that.

Thank you for proving my point. Some people find the fact a 4 year old suddenly show prodigious feats of musical or artistic skill without any real tuiotion as proof of reincarnation - clearly it is a past life shining threw. But there you are, pooh-poohing the idea. Reincarnation? There is no proof of that.

But there you are arguing speaking in tongues is proof of God. This makes me think it is vaguely hypocritical, and pretty much affirming what I have been saying. Without evidence to support it what we have are just claims and conjecture that even many Christians themselves don't believe.

I am surprised to hear you say that no Christians you know in Australia believe in exorcism. Australia is home to the Hillsong movement which definitely believes in the casting out of demons. The gifts of the Spirit are in the Bible and are used frequently throughout the world. Christians that deny the existence of these gifts are ignorant of the Word or fearful because they do not understand. I think it is pathetic when Christians deny the gifts of the Spirit.

No, you are meant to here the fact that no Christians I know believe in it. Which includes - an enormous Irish Catholic family on my fathers side (though he is an Atheist), Protestants and Catholics on my mothers side, friends and the like. Once again - some Christians do, statistically more don't. Doesn't fill me with confidence when there is such division among Christians

And pleased you mentioned Hillsong, the Church that Christians... wait for it... can't agree on. Criticised for its extolling of the virtues of wealth and lacking the financial transparency of the other Christian groups of Australia... it is trendy, certainly, but far from perfect. And besides - once again - lack of evidence.

Once again it is true argument. But if even the idea of God produces changed lives it could be evidence of something greater. And that is all that I can say on that matter.

Ummm... but that doesn't prove God. Not in the least. Unless you are also prepared to admit Hindus and Muslims and Sociologists faiths are equally as correct as your Christian one. They claim their religions changed their lives.... but what to think? If the Christian God is the only one... or is it possible it is humans changing their own lives and attributing it to religion? I mean, they can't all be correct... can they?

I would suggest that you were not connecting with God in your prayers then. Prayers are powerful and they get results.

Sigh. So you claim. And so others claim. And so others don't claim. If I couldn't connect with God then - despite not lying in what I was saying and all the rest, how does he expect me, like so many others, to connect now that I have reason not to believe?

What was wrong with my prayer at the time? It is a classic response - Atheist says "I prayed once and nothing happened" to which the Christian replies "well, you weren't doing it right"

Historians who would disagree are either ignorant or idiots. There is more evidence of Jesus's existence than there is of most other people from that area at that time.

Well, that is quite a statement... and here I was thinking it is hard to knock a persons years of education and research so easily, because you do know a historian, like anyone, has to back up their claims, don't you? There is sufficient doubt of Jesus to be able to theorise he is nothing more then a religious creation?

And you seem to be failing to split the historians into categories:

Historians who question whether Jesus existed at all: Moderate number
Historians who believed Jesus likely existed, but as nothing more then a man - Massive numbers
Historians who believe Jesus existed as the Bible claims he did - smaller then the second group (in modern times) and slightly larger then the first group.

Because Jesus existing is not proof of God or Christian claims anymore then Muhammad existing. It merely shows there was a man called Jesus who had an idea.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Uh huh. So all things, even the things that point away from God are actually proof? I don't think it works like that. And that doesn't deal with the fact that they remain fringe theories and pseudoscience because of the lack of evidence. It is the same lack of evidence that lets people claim lizards rule the earth in secret and that our souls were exiled here by some Scientological big bad. And they all claim proof of what they say - but is is false proof that only works on leaps of faith because there is no science, no statistic behind any of it.

Thank you for proving my point. Some people find the fact a 4 year old suddenly show prodigious feats of musical or artistic skill without any real tuiotion as proof of reincarnation - clearly it is a past life shining threw. But there you are, pooh-poohing the idea. Reincarnation? There is no proof of that.

But there you are arguing speaking in tongues is proof of God. This makes me think it is vaguely hypocritical, and pretty much affirming what I have been saying. Without evidence to support it what we have are just claims and conjecture that even many Christians themselves don't believe.

No, you are meant to here the fact that no Christians I know believe in it. Which includes - an enormous Irish Catholic family on my fathers side (though he is an Atheist), Protestants and Catholics on my mothers side, friends and the like. Once again - some Christians do, statistically more don't. Doesn't fill me with confidence when there is such division among Christians

And pleased you mentioned Hillsong, the Church that Christians... wait for it... can't agree on. Criticised for its extolling of the virtues of wealth and lacking the financial transparency of the other Christian groups of Australia... it is trendy, certainly, but far from perfect. And besides - once again - lack of evidence.

Ummm... but that doesn't prove God. Not in the least. Unless you are also prepared to admit Hindus and Muslims and Sociologists faiths are equally as correct as your Christian one. They claim their religions changed their lives.... but what to think? If the Christian God is the only one... or is it possible it is humans changing their own lives and attributing it to religion? I mean, they can't all be correct... can they?

Sigh. So you claim. And so others claim. And so others don't claim. If I couldn't connect with God then - despite not lying in what I was saying and all the rest, how does he expect me, like so many others, to connect now that I have reason not to believe?

What was wrong with my prayer at the time? It is a classic response - Atheist says "I prayed once and nothing happened" to which the Christian replies "well, you weren't doing it right"

Well, that is quite a statement... and here I was thinking it is hard to knock a persons years of education and research so easily, because you do know a historian, like anyone, has to back up their claims, don't you? There is sufficient doubt of Jesus to be able to theorise he is nothing more then a religious creation?

And you seem to be failing to split the historians into categories:

Historians who question whether Jesus existed at all: Moderate number
Historians who believed Jesus likely existed, but as nothing more then a man - Massive numbers
Historians who believe Jesus existed as the Bible claims he did - smaller then the second group (in modern times) and slightly larger then the first group.

Because Jesus existing is not proof of God or Christian claims anymore then Muhammad existing. It merely shows there was a man called Jesus who had an idea.

Music is different than hearing in tongues. I can play songs by ear. I can't write songs because I can discern what sounds good and what does not. Some people are gifted at this, whether they be the age of 4 or 50. It is not miraculous or unexplainable. There are much better arguments for reincarnation. Speaking in tongues however is much different, because they can speak an established dialect without having ever heard it or seen it before. They usually cannot even identify what they are saying. That is why others are needed. Speaking in tongues is a much deeper phenomenon.

Apparently your Christians friends don't believe in the same Jesus that I do because the Jesus I believe in healed people and cast out demons. The early Christians exercised the gifts of the Spirit and Christians still do to this day. I'm not sure why they don't believe but their lack of belief in it is very unbiblical.

I am not supporting Hillsong, just mentioning that most of them believe in the gifts of the Spirit. I was just surprised that you do not know anyone attached to the movement as it is growing and very large already.

I never claimed it proves God. Evidence of something greater. That is all. I can tell you that when I became a Christian it had nothing to do with my own strength of will because it was a point in my life when I was at my weakest.

I am not saying that you did it wrong necessarily. I can not comment on it really because I did not witness it. I would suggest that perhaps you asked for things you shouldn't have, that perhaps you didn't believe that you would actually receive your request, etc. Maybe you weren't really trying to connect with God because you were stuck in a routine (every Tuesday...). That is actually something that I personally have to look out for because routine can remove meaning.

Then you actually agree that sufficient evidence points towards the existence of Jesus. The small minority seem to ignore that evidence for unexplainable reasons. Jesus's divinity is the only rational question to ask on the matter.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Lizards do secretly rule the earth...

😄 That would be good if they let me get a cut of the action, because I am down with ruling the world.

But seriously, paranormal is evidence. I am not claiming it as fact. I am saying that there is a lot of evidence pointing to the existence of something greater than man.

How is "paranormal" evidence? It is a word. But still - it is claims that usually occur in places or ways that are unprovable, and the quality of evidence, when it exist, is always lows - is that an image of a ghost, a lighting effect or a hoax? Who knows. There is a reason why it can't be declared as fact, or a science, because it isn't. Not yet.

And without that evidence it is just claims.

Music is different than hearing in tongues. I can play songs by ear. I can't write songs because I can discern what sounds good and what does not. Some people are gifted at this, whether they be the age of 4 or 50. It is not miraculous or unexplainable. There are much better arguments for reincarnation. Speaking in tongues however is much different, because they can speak an established dialect without having ever heard it or seen it before. They usually cannot even identify what they are saying. That is why others are needed. Speaking in tongues is a much deeper phenomenon.

Perception. Some people think a four year old being able to play with prodigious skill means they are a reincarnated musician. Some people think things that come out under hypnosis is a sign or reincarnation, or things they dream. You are proving the point that the is no consensus on the subject, and one persons miracles is another persons "thats just talent or subconscious expression"

I think there was a study, to do with multiculturalism, a while ago that said by the age of five I child from the mid 90's on, living in a city, could expect to have been exposed to up to five different languages. They hear them on the TV, in the street, when comedians do funny accents. There was some old case about a a boys parents who had the TV on a French foreign movie after he went to bed. A few weeks later he started saying things in French, which he didn't understand (reincarnation! they cried) - apparently one theory though is that the French from the movie had gotten in and her was merely saying that. Who knows. It isn't proof of anything though, since it isn't clear cut, and people can't decide whether they agree or not. You are quick to dismiss the reincarnation claims, but expect the fact a rather unscientifically proven thing like tongues is somehow evidence of something.

Apparently your Christians friends don't believe in the same Jesus that I do because the Jesus I believe in healed people and cast out demons. The early Christians exercised the gifts of the Spirit and Christians still do to this day. I'm not sure why they don't believe but their lack of belief in it is very unbiblical.

They also don't believe a great deal of other stuff in the Bible... get this... because there are even Christians themselves who think there is a great deal of metaphor in the Bible. And besides - there is a difference between the things Jesus did and things modern day people claim they can do. Exorcism is not big in the western world any longer.

I am not supporting Hillsong, just mentioning that most of them believe in the gifts of the Spirit. I was just surprised that you do not know anyone attached to the movement as it is growing and very large already.

No, I don't - though they are forever putting on big events. I simply know what is said about them by the other Christian faiths, both good and bad.

I never claimed it proves God. Evidence of something greater. That is all. I can tell you that when I became a Christian it had nothing to do with my own strength of will because it was a point in my life when I was at my weakest.

Do you think if things had been different you might have found the strength you needed with Islam? Buddhism? Scientology? All the others that people claim does the same thing?

I am not saying that you did it wrong necessarily. I can not comment on it really because I did not witness it. I would suggest that perhaps you asked for things you shouldn't have, that perhaps you didn't believe that you would actually receive your request, etc. Maybe you weren't really trying to connect with God because you were stuck in a routine (every Tuesday...). That is actually something that I personally have to look out for because routine can remove meaning.

No, never asked for things - it was the set thing of "give thanks to God, ask for Jesus to look out for you/come into your heart, ask him to look out for family and friends amen" - the point seems to remain that it isn't as clear cut as people make out, and I have heard numerous reasons why it is so. This just seems to suggest prayer is not nearly as simple as the Bible claims it is, if a person can do it truthfully yet feel nothing.

Then you actually agree that sufficient evidence points towards the existence of Jesus. The small minority seem to ignore that evidence for unexplainable reasons. Jesus's divinity is the only rational question to ask on the matter.

No, I agree there is reason for doubt, but I am more inclined to think that a man called Jesus probably did exist, and might even have been crucified. I don't think he performed miracles or rose from the dead or was even divine for that matter.