All Of Star Trek Vs All Of Star Wars

Originally posted by DarthBanevv
You Trekkie fanboy. I've read this whole thread, and you've spouted out those lines since I can remember. It's not about what you like more it's about who would win in combat.You say you love Star Wars more. And know more about it. But if you really did know anything about it, you would know that Star Wars whips their asses. And whatever happened to that short story of yours? The one where Luke and Q fight, and Luke won. The one you yourself wrote. Please fanboy don't waste my time with your nonsense. Your argument is full of holes. Supposing both the ST galaxy and the SW galaxy had the same measurements. We would win, no contest. You've said you would leave before and never come back more than once. Let's see if this time you actually don't come back.

Dude layoff. TRSundown is NOT a Trekkie fanboy.

He was the one who picked this fight.

Originally posted by Wesker
Did you ever prove to the rest of us that is was within the exact same timeline that one could "slip back" and alter things. If that was indeed the case, there would literally be no fight. The time paradox would kick in. Look at it this way (Which is exactly why there's separate timelines and universes)...

If it worked by branching off into a separate timeline, Annorax's weapon would of been nothing but a giant, nigh-invulnerable flashlight since it would just branch off a seperate timeline leaving him in his current one with no change. Enterprise in the temporal wake, Voyager with chroniton shielding, the Krenim weapons ship and its temporal core, all unaffected by temporal changes effectively anchoring them in their timeline. And they all witnessed changes to the timeline around them. If that doesn't tell you time travel affects the universe's original timeline I don't know what will.

What you're thinking of is called quantum realities in the ST world. It's where anything that can happen has happened and a reality exists for each possible outcome, hence why parallel universes/alternate realities exist to begin with.

IF the ST crew sends an attack squad back in time and to another galaxy to defeat SW in the past, THEN they must have failed. Why? Well, If they succeeded, SW would not exist as a threat, thus they would never have needed to send anyone back. The paradox just envelops that plan.

People keep saying that SW would win and it would be "no contest." Well, I think it would be a tough fight. Without time travel and a few other things, ST would probably lose, but would cause major damage to SW. Species 8472 probably has between 900 and 9,000 ships. It only takes nine to destroy a planet. That's between 100 and 1,000 planets destroyed by that species alone. And that's assuming that they never escaped to go and destroy even more planets.

I wonder how Borg Tactical Fusion Cube would compair to a Star Destroyer.

I think a single Borg Cube is supposed to be quite a bit larger than a Star Destroyer, but I don't know how the weapons compare.

I think a Star Destroyer is 1.6km long and a Borg Cube is 6km on each side.

Swanky-Tuna, way to not realize the concept of time paradox. Rationally, there cannot be a time period that is the exact SAME time period where an event in the future is changed by going into the past and doing something, since that would neccessitate that the future event WOULD NOT HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE. Realize that already. Time travel is not an option for ST.

People keep saying that SW would win and it would be "no contest." Well, I think it would be a tough fight. Without time travel and a few other things, ST would probably lose, but would cause major damage to SW. Species 8472 probably has between 900 and 9,000 ships. It only takes nine to destroy a planet. That's between 100 and 1,000 planets destroyed by that species alone. And that's assuming that they never escaped to go and destroy even more planets.

You seem to be horribly undereducated on the idea of SW's number of ships and capability. An Imperial Star Destroyer has enough firepower to turn the surface of a planet into molten slag via orbital bombardment. Note this:

Melting the surface of a planet to a depth of 1 meter will require a sustained bombardment with power levels around half a billion Terawatts (ie- the ISD must sustain half-a-billion TW during the entire bombardment). The ISD would possibly be melting deeper than 1 meter worldwide, so the actual figure may be much higher than this. This can also be considered the level of firepower an enemy vessel would encounter in combat against an ISD.

If ISDs carry 200 Turbolasers (as suggested by blueprints), then they must average around 2.5 million terawatts of sustained firepower per cannon. Of course, there are different sized cannons, some releasing less power than this, and some more. This power output is comperable to the detonation of a 595 Megaton nuclear bomb every second (per cannon). For comparison, the most powerful bomb detonated to date was rated at 50 Megatons.

The empire alone has over 25,000 of these ships, man. This is excluding private ships, medical ships and supply ships, space pirates, SSDs, superweapons, etc. And this is just the empire, and just from one time zone (Original Trilogy era). Earlier in the Clone Wars, Republic ships (The virtual twins of the ISDs) numbered in the millions, which outstripped the enemy Separatist warships by quite a bit. I don't see how a few thousand ST ships can compare to this.

And each of these ships has a propulsion system that makes ST ships look like tugboats in comparison. Imagine Sherman tanks versus Yugos with paintball guns.

Originally posted by Wesker
Swanky-Tuna, way to not realize the concept of time paradox. Rationally, there cannot be a time period that is the exact SAME time period where an event in the future is changed by going into the past and doing something, since that would neccessitate that the future event WOULD NOT HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE. Realize that already. Time travel is not an option for ST.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
I know exactly what a paradox is but the fact of the matter is it's sci-fi. Paradoxes in ST and every other sci-fi show or movie I've seen are nothing but empty threats because it's [b]fantasy. They do nothing. I told you tacking real world, and usually logical, rules to sci-fi is stupid. [/B]

By this lack of logic and objectivity, this entire argument is moot.

Originally posted by Wesker
Swanky-Tuna, way to not realize the concept of time paradox. Rationally, there cannot be a time period that is the exact SAME time period where an event in the future is changed by going into the past and doing something, since that would neccessitate that the future event WOULD NOT HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE. Realize that already. Time travel is not an option for ST.

You seem to be horribly undereducated on the idea of SW's number of ships and capability. An Imperial Star Destroyer has enough firepower to turn the surface of a planet into molten slag via orbital bombardment. Note this:

Melting the surface of a planet to a depth of 1 meter will require a sustained bombardment with power levels around [b]half a billion Terawatts (ie- the ISD must sustain half-a-billion TW during the entire bombardment). The ISD would possibly be melting deeper than 1 meter worldwide, so the actual figure may be much higher than this. This can also be considered the level of firepower an enemy vessel would encounter in combat against an ISD.

If ISDs carry 200 Turbolasers (as suggested by blueprints), then they must average around 2.5 million terawatts of sustained firepower per cannon. Of course, there are different sized cannons, some releasing less power than this, and some more. This power output is comperable to the detonation of a 595 Megaton nuclear bomb every second (per cannon). For comparison, the most powerful bomb detonated to date was rated at 50 Megatons.

The empire alone has over 25,000 of these ships, man. This is excluding private ships, medical ships and supply ships, space pirates, SSDs, superweapons, etc. And this is just the empire, and just from one time zone (Original Trilogy era). Earlier in the Clone Wars, Republic ships (The virtual twins of the ISDs) numbered in the millions, which outstripped the enemy Separatist warships by quite a bit. I don't see how a few thousand ST ships can compare to this.

And each of these ships has a propulsion system that makes ST ships look like tugboats in comparison. Imagine Sherman tanks versus Yugos with paintball guns. [/B]

YOU. ARE. NOT. LISTENING! I said that SW would win, why are you even debating!?!?!?

The weapons in ST can provide nearly the same amount of firepower (according to my calculations anyway; I'm not sure what the accepted standards are). I think I figured that a standard antimatter torpedo could easily unleash about 450 megatons, and they can easily fire as fast as an individual weapon on a Star Destroyer, they just don't have the endless supply of ammo that an SD has. HOWEVER, I still maintain that SW would win, I just don't think it would be a walk in the park like so many people maintain. You can only have so many Star Destroyers attacking ST at once, some of the vessels would make it through and end up destroying quite a few planets and plenty of ships. In my opinion, 15-20% of SW space would be obliterated; they would recover, but it would be a major blow to them.

There are several reasons for this. The Borg have in excess of 100,000 vessels. There are about 4,000 space-faring civilizations in a 50 light year radius in ST. This may be unrealistic, but they said it in the show so it is canon. It is probable that each civilization has between 100 and 1,000 ships each with the major powers have far more, and the weaker ones having far less. Each Species 8472 vessel appears to have 1/9th of the power required to destroy a planet. They can easily destroy a Borg Cube which is longer and more voluminous than a Star Destroyer, if not as technologically advanced. It only requires two transphasic torpedoes to destroy such a Cube. In one episode the Captain ordered some sort of isometric warhead to be constructed and an Ensign asked if she was planning on destroying a small planet. He may have been joking, but if not, this bomb was constructed on a vessel far from allies and resources.

An isokinetic cannon can fire a round that blasts through 10 meters of solid, ultradense, shielded alloy and kept on going. It was so overpowered that the producers decided to keep Voyager from attaining this weapon. As well, there are many weapons that completely bypass shields. ST has the race of the Caretakers which are extremely advanced. Transwarp appears to be faster than Hyperspace (but I'm not sure), and there are anywhere from a few to dozens of entire races that use such speedy transportation. There are also several races that commonly use coaxial warp, which seems to be fairly fast.

On the ground, ST would lose badly, so they would have to avoid a ground battle at all costs. ST would still be wiped out, but SW would lose more than 2 stormtroopers and a Tie Fighter. Well, in my opinion anyways...

Originally posted by Wesker
By this lack of logic and objectivity, this entire argument is moot.

...

YOU. ARE. NOT. LISTENING! I said that SW would win, why are you even debating!?!?!?

No, I'm not listening. I'm reading text on a screen. And apparently none of you trekkies ever bother to read all that nice evidence I've put down along with others, covering all these questions you've brought up.

The weapons in ST can provide nearly the same amount of firepower (according to my calculations anyway; I'm not sure what the accepted standards are). I think I figured that a standard antimatter torpedo could easily unleash about 450 megatons, and they can easily fire as fast as an individual weapon on a Star Destroyer, they just don't have the endless supply of ammo that an SD has.

And you would be wrong. ISD can destroy an asteroid with one shot, while it would take the entire payload of the USS Enterprise' torpedoes to do the same thing. This is not even close.

HOWEVER, I still maintain that SW would win, I just don't think it would be a walk in the park like so many people maintain.

But it really would. ALL of SW has a combination of billions of ships, even if you include just that of one era. All of ST would be lucky to break the five million mark, and that's me being generous. The fight would be a total mop-up. Jango Fett's Slave I has a higher shield out put and turbolaser output than the USS Enterprise, according to both the technical manuals of both series' and the canon on-screen evidence. And that's a single man bounty hunter vessel. You combine this with incredible propulsion system and there's no way ST stands a chance. The ST fleets couldn't even get into formation en masse before an SW fleet drops out of Hyperspace, frags their ships, destroys their docks, frags the planet, and leaps back into hyperspace to attack another target. ST ships couldn't deal with that. It'd be like a guy in a wheelchair with one arm trying to run from and fend off a ninja.

You can only have so many Star Destroyers attacking ST at once, some of the vessels would make it through and end up destroying quite a few planets and plenty of ships.

No, actually the Empire can scramble a couple of thousand ships inside of an hour, which is more than enough to deal with any fleet ST could muster up inside of a month given their propulsion systems (Unless we try and give ST a slight advantage by saying that all their forces are already combined. And that doesn't even give slight advatange justice.) Now, a Star Destroyer is a hell of a lot more powerful than any one vessel in ST. Yes, this includes the Borg. The Borg are not invincible; they have to interface with another's technology to adapt to it, and there's nothing to suggest that they can adapt to as high a level of power as say, Imp turbolasers. Certainly, if you had an ISD peppering a Borg ship with that kind of firepower, it'd be blown to shit before it had time to adapt. But I realize that the concept of the "immortal Borg" is a Trekkie thing, so I won't argue on that anymore. Everytime I prove that the Borg too would get pwned, someone comes out five pages later and wonders how they'd do in combat.

In my opinion, 15-20% of SW space would be obliterated; they would recover, but it would be a major blow to them.

This is ridiculous. All of ST could COVER that much of SW space if they had a hundred years to do it! You DO realize how big SW space is, right? By the time of the Empire, there's one million member systems, and fifty million colonies. There's about one million species in the SW universe that are known. You mean to tell me that ST is somehow going to overwhelm this amount of people and destroy a good fraction of their space before being noticed and WTFpwned? Please. Don't try and salvage some honor for ST even though they're doomed; they cannot do any serious damage to the SW world or their ships.

There are several reasons for this. The Borg have in excess of 100,000 vessels.

They do, huh? Where's your source? When Voyager entered Borg space and stumbled across a Borg planet, it was defended by THREE ships.

There are about 4,000 space-faring civilizations in a 50 light year radius in ST.

See above. SW totally outnumbers them.

This may be unrealistic, but they said it in the show so it is canon. It is probable that each civilization has between 100 and 1,000 ships each with the major powers have far more, and the weaker ones having far less. Each Species 8472 vessel appears to have 1/9th of the power required to destroy a planet. They can easily destroy a Borg Cube which is longer and more voluminous than a Star Destroyer, if not as technologically advanced. It only requires two transphasic torpedoes to destroy such a Cube. In one episode the Captain ordered some sort of isometric warhead to be constructed and an Ensign asked if she was planning on destroying a small planet. He may have been joking, but if not, this bomb was constructed on a vessel far from allies and resources.

Yes, but what's its effective range? ISD's have that kind of firepower per cannon, and they can release an effect salvo at ranges of thousands of kilometers. Almost all combat I've ever seen in ST takes place in perhaps tens of kilometers if not even closer. Btw, you do realize that each ISD contains its own compliment of fighters, right?

An isokinetic cannon can fire a round that blasts through 10 meters of solid, ultradense, shielded alloy and kept on going. It was so overpowered that the producers decided to keep Voyager from attaining this weapon. As well, there are many weapons that completely bypass shields. ST has the race of the Caretakers which are extremely advanced. Transwarp appears to be faster than Hyperspace (but I'm not sure), and there are anywhere from a few to dozens of entire races that use such speedy transportation. There are also several races that commonly use coaxial warp, which seems to be fairly fast.

Again, effective range? And how powerful are the relative few that can go faster than hyperspace? What's their ships shields and power output? How tactically smart are they?

On the ground, ST would lose badly, so they would have to avoid a ground battle at all costs. ST would still be wiped out, but SW would lose more than 2 stormtroopers and a Tie Fighter. Well, in my opinion anyways...

I never said it was that extreme. But I doubt ST could do much more than stumble on a backwater planet and destroy it or put some holes in a fleet. They won't win any major battles and if the SW takes the initiative, ST's screwed.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Yes, logic. Logically we should hold Star Trek to rules that have never been shown to apply during ths show or movies. It makes much more sense to have technology literally based on magic. FOR LOGIC!

No, you're failing to see the point again. Even if things appear illogical in-universe, if you expect to explain them you must apply logic. I know you're incapable, so I won't ask you to participate, but the rest of us can handle it. You go do what it is you do best.... Like spam this thread with your narrow-mindedness.

Originally posted by Wesker
But it really would. ALL of SW has a combination of billions of ships, even if you include just that of one era. All of ST would be lucky to break the five million mark, and that's me being generous. The fight would be a total mop-up. Jango Fett's Slave I has a higher shield out put and turbolaser output than the USS Enterprise, according to both the technical manuals of both series' and the canon on-screen evidence. And that's a single man bounty hunter vessel. You combine this with incredible propulsion system and there's no way ST stands a chance. The ST fleets couldn't even get into formation en masse before an SW fleet drops out of Hyperspace, frags their ships, destroys their docks, frags the planet, and leaps back into hyperspace to attack another target. ST ships couldn't deal with that. It'd be like a guy in a wheelchair with one arm trying to run from and fend off a ninja.

I didn't realize that their shields were so powerful. However, the Enterprise is far from being the most powerful ship in the ST Universe.

Originally posted by Wesker
No, actually the Empire can scramble a couple of thousand ships inside of an hour, which is more than enough to deal with any fleet ST could muster up inside of a month given their propulsion systems (Unless we try and give ST a slight advantage by saying that all their forces are already combined. And that doesn't even give slight advatange justice.) Now, a Star Destroyer is a hell of a lot more powerful than any one vessel in ST. Yes, this includes the Borg. The Borg are not invincible; they have to interface with another's technology to adapt to it, and there's nothing to suggest that they can adapt to as high a level of power as say, Imp turbolasers. Certainly, if you had an ISD peppering a Borg ship with that kind of firepower, it'd be blown to shit before it had time to adapt. But I realize that the concept of the "immortal Borg" is a Trekkie thing, so I won't argue on that anymore. Everytime I prove that the Borg too would get pwned, someone comes out five pages later and wonders how they'd do in combat.

I didn't say that the Borg are immortal, and I doubt that they would quickly adapt to such insane power levels. I only brought them up because they seem to have such a large fleet compare to the other ST races. I thought someone said that they had more than 100,000 vessels. If this is not the case, I'll drop the Borg in this instance.

Originally posted by Wesker
This is ridiculous. All of ST could COVER that much of SW space if they had a hundred years to do it! You DO realize how big SW space is, right? By the time of the Empire, there's one million member systems, and fifty million colonies. There's about one million species in the SW universe that are known. You mean to tell me that ST is somehow going to overwhelm this amount of people and destroy a good fraction of their space before being noticed and WTFpwned? Please. Don't try and salvage some honor for ST even though they're doomed; they cannot do any serious damage to the SW world or their ships.

I just watched one of the episodes, and it was 8,000 civilizations in a 50-light year radius. That's a 100 l.y. diameter and the galaxy is about 100,000 l.y. across. That means that there's about 8,000,000 civilizations in ST space. It could be far more or far less. If each civilization has 1,000 ships, that's 8 billion vessels. However, 1,000 ships per race is a little bit high, but 100 would work. That's 800 million vessels in ST space. Even if they destroyed 1 every second, it would take 25 years to destroy all of the ST vessels.

As well, that's 8E15 people if each race only has 1 billion people in it. It would take a long time to destroy all of those people and ships even if SW does have more.

Originally posted by Wesker
Yes, but what's its effective range? ISD's have that kind of firepower per cannon, and they can release an effect salvo at ranges of thousands of kilometers. Almost all combat I've ever seen in ST takes place in perhaps tens of kilometers if not even closer. Btw, you do realize that each ISD contains its own compliment of fighters, right?

ST ships can fire at Warp speed. It would be impossible to target a ship travelling faster than light, but they can still fire at the SW ships.

Hyperdrive is a point to point system... You can not change directions in hyperspace. You have to go to sublight speed, change course, and then engage your hyperdrive again. Also, you can not fire weapons in hyperspace so you are defensless and unable to engage in offensive activity.

Warp speed systems can change course on the fly even at maximum warp. So all a ST ship has to do is engage warp speed, some speed that is maintainable for extended periods of time and they will never be caught... cause by the time the SW ships come out of hyperspace and track the ST ships they will already be out of range... then the SW ships have to change course and reengage their hyperdrive.

Since the ST ships can launch torpedoes AND fire phasers while in warp they can do fly bys of stations, fleets, planets and just lay out bombardment after bombardment.

And there have been many advancements in torpedoes since Rikers comment about how it would take the ships entire compliment to destroy and asteroid... Multiphasic, quantum, gravimetric, polaron, and many more torpedoes...

And with ST Nemesis the massive Romulan warship could fire while cloaked... So now all ST has to do is cloak all their ships and fly around at warp speed spraying torpedoes all over the place...

Originally posted by Wesker
I never said it was that extreme. But I doubt ST could do much more than stumble on a backwater planet and destroy it or put some holes in a fleet. They won't win any major battles and if the SW takes the initiative, ST's screwed.

At least there's that. I'd say that the truth is probably in between this comment and my 15-20% comment. I think we're both beginning to see that it isn't as clear-cut as we first though it would be.

Originally posted by Wesker
And you would be wrong. ISD can destroy an asteroid with one shot, while it would take the entire payload of the USS Enterprise' torpedoes to do the same thing. This is not even close.
[/B]

In the episode "Rise" I believe that Voyager was supposed to be able to take out a very large asteroid in one shot except it was made out of some ultradense material or something. I'm pretty sure that I proved that a single Photon torpedo from Voyager's time has only slightly less power than a single turbolaser shot.

Originally posted by Wesker
And you would be wrong. ISD can destroy an asteroid with one shot, while it would take the entire payload of the USS Enterprise' torpedoes to do the same thing. This is not even close.

Originally posted by Wesker
No, you're failing to see the point again. Even if things appear illogical in-universe, if you expect to explain them you must apply logic.

It may be because of temporal shielding, although the time travel in Generations shows otherwise but that part of the movie was pretty screwy. Where's the 2nd Picard?

The alternate timeline may still be playing out in a parallel universe but that's part of the quantum realities in ST and unrelated to the time travel occurance.

You go do what it is you do best.... Like spam this thread with your narrow-mindedness.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Why would you reference a point where its said it'd take an entire payload of torpedos to destroy a holo asteroid but not reference when they've actually destroyed asteroids larger with 1-2 torpedos?

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/wmd/wmd.html#energy

But what drives me nuts about ST is that the above link shows screenshots with quotes about how much power and energy is needed to destroy an object or to do a task, but in ST:TMP, the Enterprise is in a wormhole with a Nestle™ Super-Chunky asteroid heading their direction, and what blows it up? A single photon.
Bah! I wish Paramount would keep track of this crap.

I agree with you on one thing though, Tuna. Generations is a pretty screwy movie. You think that if you'd had a one-shot chance to go back in time in the Nexus, you'd go to the 10-Forward where Soran is and corner him with a goon squad of Red Shirts and throw his butt in the brig.

Bah to Mr. Poe. I can't read his website for more than 5 minutes because his comical spins on everything are as uncomical as Dennis Leary and Maddox combined.

But yeah, the entire ST series as a whole has its share of inconsistencies. The one about taking an entire payload of torpedoes to blast open an asteroid was a blatant plot device to get trapped inside by the Romulans then use the Pegasus device to escape. They even say phaser fire would bring the whole mofo down in the same episode.

And in Generations, if he just went back to when he could simply lock up Soran they would of missed out on the on-screen orgasm of many Trekkies' dreams: Kirk, Picard, and a villain on a broken bridge with one gun and a device that needs to be disabled in time.

Of course I mean Trekkie in the literal sense of a hardcore fan, not the slutty way it's been used many a-time in this thread.

quantum phase inhibitor
Episode: TNG 167 - Captain's Holiday

Known more commonly as the Tox Uthat, the inhibitor could stop the nuclear reaction that takes place within stars. It was invented in the twenty-seventh century by Kal Dano.

Originally posted by DarkLord_981
quantum phase inhibitor
Episode: TNG 167 - Captain's Holiday

Known more commonly as the Tox Uthat, the inhibitor could stop the nuclear reaction that takes place within stars. It was invented in the twenty-seventh century by Kal Dano.

Pepto-Bismol has the same effect. Its stops the nuclear reaction in my lower intestines after Friday's Chili-fest.