All Of Star Trek Vs All Of Star Wars

Originally posted by KMCmember
Spite. Star Wars is a type 3 civilization and its power generation figures and hyperdrives are extremely high, like in the hundreds of trillions of gigawatts.

Strangely though, in ground combat Star Wars isn't nearly as uber powerful as it is in space, but Star Trek is even worse at ground combat.

Unless if species 8472 is far more powerful that they appear or if a god like being like the Q sides with Star Trek, Star Wars wins.

However, IDK much about Star Trek; most of my knowledge about Star Trek is from Memory Alpha.

I fail to see how SW would be considered a type 3 civilisation on the Kardashev scale when there's been nothing in it to match the industrial capacity that created the Dyson Sphere as seen in ST TNG: Relics episode and that's only considered type 2.

How powerful would you like species 8472 to appear?...8 single pilot bioships can combine and destroy a planet. Something that takes a SW superweapon to achieve.

Originally posted by jaden101
I fail to see how SW would be considered a type 3 civilisation on the Kardashev scale when there's been nothing in it to match the industrial capacity that created the Dyson Sphere as seen in ST TNG: Relics episode and that's only considered type 2.

How powerful would you like species 8472 to appear?...8 single pilot bioships can combine and destroy a planet. Something that takes a SW superweapon to achieve.

Star Wars civilization covered the entire galaxy (aka type 3). The Federation covered a few star systems (aka type 2) and was capable of taking on most other Star Trek powers.

Species 8472 is too much of an unknown IMO. We don't know if all of their bioshops are planet busters nor do we know about their numbers, industrial capability or weapon yields.

Star Wars wins due to a) hugely superior numbers and infastructure b) hugely faster FTL travel and c) weapons yield and durability superiority by several orders of magnitud. (Star Wars broadsides can have the firepower in the teratons.)

The only two ways that Star Trek might win is if the Borg adapt to their tech (unlikely since iirc they can only adapt to phaser based weapon technology and have limits to adaption) or if species 8472 or the inconians or some other unknown race turns out to be ultra uber powerful.

Originally posted by KMCmember
Star Wars civilization covered the entire galaxy (aka type 3). The Federation covered a few star systems (aka type 2) and was capable of taking on most other Star Trek powers.

Species 8472 is too much of an unknown IMO. We don't know if all of their bioshops are planet busters nor do we know about their numbers, industrial capability or weapon yields.

Star Wars wins due to a) hugely superior numbers and infastructure b) hugely faster FTL travel and c) weapons yield and durability superiority by several orders of magnitud. (Star Wars broadsides can have the firepower in the teratons.)

The only two ways that Star Trek might win is if the Borg adapt to their tech (unlikely since iirc they can only adapt to phaser based weapon technology and have limits to adaption) or if species 8472 or the inconians or some other unknown race turns out to be ultra uber powerful.

That's not what a type 3 society is. A type 3 society uses all the energy and resources available in an entire galaxy.

Species 8472 come from an entirely separate universe where they are the soul surviving species because they've wiped everything else out. It's safe to say they have massive numbers. We also know that in the Borg-Species 8472 war in a single battle the Borg lost 8 planets and 312 cubes with a compliment of over 4 million drones (planet loses weren't given).

They were projected to wipe out the entire Borg collective in only a few more weeks.

Star Wars also doesn't have superior numbers. The Borg (who only cover about 1/12 to 1/18 of the galaxy are stated to have millions of cubes. Canon figures at the high end put Star Destroyers in the 10,000's and at the low end in only the 1,000's.

Transwarp can also deploy across the galaxy far faster than hyperdrive.

As for the Borg's adaptive abilities. They've been stated to have assimilated non corporeal species that exist in other dimensions. The only technology they hadn't adapted to by the end of Voyager were those brought back from the future by Admiral Janeway. Prior to that they had already adapted to photon torpedoes, Quantum torpedoes and everything else that the Federation had thrown at them. They were even in the process of adapting to the future technology towards the end of the episode and had already adapted to the cloaking device within minutes. It's safe to say that if Voyager had continued then the Borg would have adapted to that tech as well.

The only other species who had "technology" that wasn't adapted to was species 8472.

You say SW has superior infrastructure yet I see nothing in SW that shows the level of technological superiority and industrial capability that created the Dyson Sphere in Relics.

I also don't see anything in SW that could cope with the Krenim time ship weapon.

I could go on but i'd be repeating myself for about the millionth time.

Originally posted by jaden101

Species 8472 come from an entirely separate universe where they are the soul surviving species because they've wiped everything else out. It's safe to say they have massive numbers.

or its equally safe to assume that they are last few surviving members of such a race. Its not a stretch to assume that wiping everything out of a galaxy would deplete someone's numbers something terrible.

Therefore since we found utterly different things that are "safe to say" about the same unknown material, we would have to admit that we know nothing.

Watch the speculation.

Originally posted by jaden101
That's not what a type 3 society is. A type 3 society uses all the energy and resources available in an entire galaxy.

Which is what Star Wars can basically do. They have harnessed stars, planets and such. Star Wars has discovered every planet in the Galaxy by AOTC. The Federation hasn't, hence why the Enterprise still has the job of discovering new life.

Species 8472 come from an entirely separate universe where they are the soul surviving species because they've wiped everything else out. It's safe to say they have massive numbers. We also know that in the Borg-Species 8472 war in a single battle the Borg lost 8 planets and 312 cubes with a compliment of over 4 million drones (planet loses weren't given).

That doesn't give us much information on species 8472's capabilities.

They were projected to wipe out the entire Borg collective in only a few more weeks.

Again, that doesn't give us much information on species 8472's capabilities.

Star Wars also doesn't have superior numbers. The Borg (who only cover about 1/12 to 1/18 of the galaxy are stated to have millions of cubes. Canon figures at the high end put Star Destroyers in the 10,000's and at the low end in only the 1,000's.

Source for the millions of cubes claim?

Also, there are far more than 10s of thousands of star destroyers in Star Wars. The Empire had 25,000 of them. Add in the other Star Wars civilizations and their star destroyers to the numbers count and you get a figure possibly in the millions. Then there's frigates, starfighters and such.

Transwarp can also deploy across the galaxy far faster than hyperdrive.

Source? And only the borg and maybe species 8472 has been shown to have transwarp. The Federation didn't get to mass produce them, neither did any of the other more conventional Star Trek civilizations. Therefore, the non transwarp civilizations would use conventional warp.

By the time a Federation fleet gets to invade any major Star Wars planet (even if they somehow have enough fuel when they only have about enough fuel for about 3000 light years with warp) the war would already be over. Using warp drive it takes decades for a ship to travel across the galaxy. Using hyperdrive it takes a few hours to travel across the galaxy.

A huge Star Wars fleet could use hyperspace to travel to Earth, surprise and overwhelm the defenders, and then proceed to render the planet uninhabitable; or, if the Star Wars leader is more humane, disable Earth's major militarily important stuff. By the time any major Star Trek reinforcements arrive, the Star Wars fleet would have gone back to one of their planets and weeks would have passed.

As for the Borg's adaptive abilities. They've been stated to have assimilated non corporeal species that exist in other dimensions. The only technology they hadn't adapted to by the end of Voyager were those brought back from the future by Admiral Janeway. Prior to that they had already adapted to photon torpedoes, Quantum torpedoes and everything else that the Federation had thrown at them. They were even in the process of adapting to the future technology towards the end of the episode and had already adapted to the cloaking device within minutes. It's safe to say that if Voyager had continued then the Borg would have adapted to that tech as well.

Yet Mike Wong in www.stardestroyer.net brings up a good point. Star Wars technology is superior to Star Trek technology in most ways by quite a bit (for example, power generation. A single Star Wars star destroyer produces more power than the entire Federation fleet). To claim that the borg can adapt to X because they can adapt to Y is a no limits fallacy.

The only other species who had "technology" that wasn't adapted to was species 8472.

Then that proves that borg adaption technology does indeed have a limit.

You say SW has superior infrastructure yet I see nothing in SW that shows the level of technological superiority and industrial capability that created the Dyson Sphere in Relics.

BTW who created the Dyson Sphere?

I also don't see anything in SW that could cope with the Krenim time ship weapon.

I could go on but i'd be repeating myself for about the millionth time.

Except that the Kenim time ship weapon creates an alternate reality in Star Trek every time it fires, so it wouldn't actually affect the timeline that this hypothetical war is in.

Which is what Star Wars can basically do. They have harnessed stars, planets and such. Star Wars has discovered every planet in the Galaxy by AOTC. The Federation hasn't, hence why the Enterprise still has the job of discovering new life.

It's nothing even close to being the same. A type 3 civilisation has to capture the entire energy output of every star in it's galaxy. SW does nowhere even close to that.

That doesn't give us much information on species 8472's capabilities.

The fact that 8 small single pilot bio-ships can combine and do the job of a SW superweapon (Death Star) shows their capabilities are vastly more powerful than that of a considerably larger Imperial Star Destroyer.

There is also potentially colossally large numbers of them given that they have the sole run of an entire universe.

Source for the millions of cubes claim?

Voyager episode "Unity"

Also, there are far more than 10s of thousands of star destroyers in Star Wars. The Empire had 25,000 of them. Add in the other Star Wars civilizations and their star destroyers to the numbers count and you get a figure possibly in the millions. Then there's frigates, starfighters and such.

I love it when people just make stuff up right after asking someone else for a source.

Source? And only the borg and maybe species 8472 has been shown to have transwarp. The Federation didn't get to mass produce them, neither did any of the other more conventional Star Trek civilizations. Therefore, the non transwarp civilizations would use conventional warp.

Voyager: Endgame. Voyager used a transwarp hub to travel 1/4 of the way across the galaxy in seconds.

Several species have used either transwarp of their own versions of it. (Quantum slipstream drive)

The Voth had transwarp technology and their city ship is utterly colossal and powerful. They were able to transport the Voyager in its entirety to inside the city ship despite their shields being up.

Yet Mike Wong in www.stardestroyer.net brings up a good point. Star Wars technology is superior to Star Trek technology in most ways by quite a bit (for example, power generation. A single Star Wars star destroyer produces more power than the entire Federation fleet). To claim that the borg can adapt to X because they can adapt to Y is a no limits fallacy.

Yet he had to use figures from a ST manual that was released during the 1st season of Next Generation and uses this constantly as his proof and canon figures despite the fact that books are not ST canon and there have been countless on screen figures given over the rest of Next generation, DS9 and Voyager than make those figures completely obsolete.

The Borg's adaptations also have nothing to do with power output in it's totality anyway. It's been repeatedly shown and quoted on screen that they adapt to weapon frequencies as opposed to magnitude. This is why the plan to use the Enterprise D's deflector dish to hit a Borg cube with the entire output of the warp core at once failed to even put a scratch on the Borg cube. The Borg also utilise ablative armour which is specifically designed to counter act powerful energy based weapons and degrade at a controlled rate while maintaining integrity.

Then that proves that borg adaption technology does indeed have a limit.

Yes...genetic perfection and purely biological based technology. The only comparison in the SW universe is the Vong which, on evidence, have nowhere near the destructive capability as species 8472.

Originally posted by jaden101
It's nothing even close to being the same. A type 3 civilisation has to capture the entire energy output of every star in it's galaxy. SW does nowhere even close to that.

That scientist guy who has a PHD talked about that scale and said that the Empire from Star Wars was a type 3 civilization.

The fact that 8 small single pilot bio-ships can combine and do the job of a SW superweapon (Death Star) shows their capabilities are vastly more powerful than that of a considerably larger Imperial Star Destroyer.

Yet the sun crusher is a single starfighter sized ship and can make a star go nova.

There is also potentially colossally large numbers of them given that they have the sole run of an entire universe.

Potentially, but we don't know that much about species 8472.

Voyager episode "Unity"

OK

I love it when people just make stuff up right after asking someone else for a source.

Empire: 25,000 star destroyers

Other major Star Wars civilizations:

Old Republic
sith empire
new sith empire
Rebel Alliance
New Republic
Galactic Alliance
Yuuzhang Vong
Imperial Remnant
New Galactic Empire
One sith empire

That's 11 major Star Wars civilizations, and there might be more. The Old Republic existed for about 25,000 years. A lot of star destroyers could be made in that time period.

Voyager: Endgame. Voyager used a transwarp hub to travel 1/4 of the way across the galaxy in seconds.

OK, but only the borg had massed produced transwarp.

Several species have used either transwarp of their own versions of it. (Quantum slipstream drive)

Yet are they as fast as hyperdrive?

The Voth had transwarp technology and their city ship is utterly colossal and powerful. They were able to transport the Voyager in its entirety to inside the city ship despite their shields being up.

Again, are they as fast as hyperdrive?

Yet he had to use figures from a ST manual that was released during the 1st season of Next Generation and uses this constantly as his proof and canon figures despite the fact that books are not ST canon and there have been countless on screen figures given over the rest of Next generation, DS9 and Voyager than make those figures completely obsolete.

Even newer tech manuals and episodes list the Enterprise as having a power generations in the billions of gigawatts, yet a star destroyer has a power generation in the quadrillions of gigawatts.

There is not a single ship in Star Trek that has a power generation on par with that of a Star Wars star destroyer.

The Borg's adaptations also have nothing to do with power output in it's totality anyway. It's been repeatedly shown and quoted on screen that they adapt to weapon frequencies as opposed to magnitude. This is why the plan to use the Enterprise D's deflector dish to hit a Borg cube with the entire output of the warp core at once failed to even put a scratch on the Borg cube. The Borg also utilise ablative armour which is specifically designed to counter act powerful energy based weapons and degrade at a controlled rate while maintaining integrity.

A common misconception among Trekkies (or Star Trek fans, whichever term you prefer) is that Star Wars also uses frequencies on their shields and weapons. This is incorrect. There is no evidence that Star Wars uses frequencies on their shields and weapons; therefore, you actually proved yourself wrong.

Yes...genetic perfection and purely biological based technology. The only comparison in the SW universe is the Vong which, on evidence, have nowhere near the destructive capability as species 8472.

Since when does genetics have anything to do with resistance to the borg adapting to a civilization's technology? The Vong may not have the superweapons that species 8472 does, but the Vong's typical ships have greater weapons yields and durability than species 8472, based on what we know about species 8472.

That scientist guy who has a PHD talked about that scale and said that the Empire from Star Wars was a type 3 civilization.

"That scientist guy who has a PhD" eh?...Well that's settled then eh? 😆

Yet the sun crusher is a single starfighter sized ship and can make a star go nova.

Yet so can a home made missle built by a single person. (Trilithium

torpedo built by Tolian Soran) in the film "Generations"

Potentially, but we don't know that much about species 8472.

Do I need to repeat myself about them being the only species residing in their entire universe?

A lot of star destroyers could be made in that time period.

So because they COULD be made then they exist and are in ST canon?....Besides if an Acclamator class ship is vastly lower in power than an Imperial SD then I'd love to see how much lower in power in 25,000 year older vessel would be.

OK, but only the borg had massed produced transwarp.

No...As I've already stated...The Voth have transwarp (and have done for a long time)...Species 116 had transwarp technology that they called quantum slipstream drive (transwarp isn't a technology per se...It's simply the term used to describe faster than warp travel)

Yet are they as fast as hyperdrive?

As I've already stated...Yes.

Even newer tech manuals and episodes list the Enterprise as having a power generations in the billions of gigawatts, yet a star destroyer has a power generation in the quadrillions of gigawatts.

Which newer tech manuals?...Name them...Page numbers...Quotes please.

There is not a single ship in Star Trek that has a power generation on par with that of a Star Wars star destroyer.

Yet 8 species 8472 ships can destroy planets completely where as it takes a fleet of Star Destroyers days to liquify the surface of a planet....Yet supposedly species 8472 ships aren't as powerful as a SD....On screen evidence proves you wrong whether there is a tech manual giving quantified numbers or not.

A common misconception among Trekkies (or Star Trek fans, whichever term you prefer) is that Star Wars also uses frequencies on their shields and weapons. This is incorrect. There is no evidence that Star Wars uses frequencies on their shields and weapons; therefore, you actually proved yourself wrong.

Explain how they work then please.

Since when does genetics have anything to do with resistance to the borg adapting to a civilization's technology? The Vong may not have the superweapons that species 8472 does, but the Vong's typical ships have greater weapons yields and durability than species 8472, based on what we know about species 8472.

Because their technology IS ORGANIC and is thus entirely genetically based...

So the Vong ships can obliterate planets?...The Vong ships can take entire fleets of extremely powerful ships firing on them without any damage at all?....

Originally posted by jaden101
"That scientist guy who has a PhD" eh?...Well that's settled then eh? 😆

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdILmgJGuvw

According to Wikipedia Michio Kaku has a PHD.

Yet so can a home made missle built by a single person. (Trilithium

torpedo built by Tolian Soran) in the film "Generations"

That's faulty logic you're using here. You're trying to make the "smaller is better" argument, yet clearly both sides are inconsistent in that.

Do I need to repeat myself about them being the only species residing in their entire universe?

Yes, and elaborate.

So because they COULD be made then they exist and are in ST canon?....Besides if an Acclamator class ship is vastly lower in power than an Imperial SD then I'd love to see how much lower in power in 25,000 year older vessel would be.

Even an Acclamator would be a match for the entire Federation fleet combined (not kidding).

No...As I've already stated...The Voth have transwarp (and have done for a long time)...Species 116 had transwarp technology that they called quantum slipstream drive (transwarp isn't a technology per se...It's simply the term used to describe faster than warp travel)

Except that said transwarp wasn't massed produced by any Star Trek civilization other than the borg and species 8472.

As I've already stated...Yes.

You've brought evidence showing the speed of the borg's transwarp, but not that of other Star Trek civilizations.

Which newer tech manuals?...Name them...Page numbers...Quotes please.

www.stardestroyer.net (aka the premier site for most pro Star Wars debaters 😉) shows a quote from Data that talks about the Enterprise generating a certain number of billions of gigawatts "per second", yet an imperial star destroyer has the power generation in the quadrillions of gigawatts. Later, more advanced star destroyers have even more power generation capabilities.

As an example, the reactor core of a star destroyer can supply the power of almost one million Enterprises.

Yet 8 species 8472 ships can destroy planets completely where as it takes a fleet of Star Destroyers days to liquify the surface of a planet....Yet supposedly species 8472 ships aren't as powerful as a SD....On screen evidence proves you wrong whether there is a tech manual giving quantified numbers or not.

*sigh*

Yet the sun crusher is even smaller than 8 species 8472 bioships and is MORE powerful.

Explain how they work then please.

WTF? Are you suggesting that all technology works using frequency technology?

Star Trek tech often uses frequency technology, but Star Wars tech does not.

Therefore, you've proved yourself wrong.

Because their technology IS ORGANIC and is thus entirely genetically based...

And how does that make it harder to adapt to them?

So the Vong ships can obliterate planets?...The Vong ships can take entire fleets of extremely powerful ships firing on them without any damage at all?....

Strawman.

Also, there's the firepower difference (yes, you've probably heard this many times from other pro Star Wars debaters, but it's a valid argument). A medium turbolaser from a star destroyer has a firepower of 200 gigatons according to the Star Wars: ICS.

A photon torpedo from the Enterprise has the theoretical yield of 64 megatons if there's 100% efficiency (which there wouldn't be; 100% efficiency is a scienfitic impossibility based on what we know) according to the TM. Before you say "omg it's not canon!", note that this is actually one of the HIGHEST firepower figures given.

Also, a turbolaser focuses its energy on the target, whereas a photon torpedo is omnidirectional in damage. Therefore, you'd have to cut the figure from 64 megatons to 32 megatons, even if you discount the fact that it wouldn't be 100% efficient.

Therefore, you have 200 gigatons vs 32 megatons.

32 megatons = 0.032 gigatons.

200 gigatons vs 0.032 gigatons.

A medium turbolaser strike from a star destroyer is 6250 times more powerful than a photon torpedo.

And a typical star destroyer has about 5 medium and 5 heavy turbolaser batteries. The heavy turbolaser batteries have the firepower in the teratons.

Isn't there a quote that says that the CIS forces (ships or troops? Can't remember) number in the trillions? That plus everything else, plus Naga Sadows ability to just conjure up limitless armies whenever he wants plus infinate capital ships from the Star Forge means Star Wars probably wins via sheer weight of numbers. Not to mention Palpatine taking out entire fleets by himself, Nihilus wiping out fleets and planets by himself, Naga Sadow taking out star systems by himself etc etc means a curbstomp imo.

And if worst comes to worst Star Wars has a universe-buster iirc.....

Quintillions, not trillions.

Ah. Whoopsi.

Yeah, I don't remember what the source was for that number, though. I always that it was insane.

If you want to see something really insane then clicky. I always thought that was the lamest, most nonsensical way to destroy the universe ever.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If you want to see something really insane then clicky. I always thought that was the lamest, most nonsensical way to destroy the universe ever.

And I like KMCmember. You know what you're talking about and you're civil. Would you by chance happen to know the extent and limitations of the Borg's adaption abilities?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Kind of a universal nuclear bomb. I've always wanted to read the Star Wars series of comics, but after reading some of their plots on Wookiee, I'm turned off. They seem so... gay.

And I like KMCmember. You know what you're talking about and you're civil. Would you by chance happen to know the extent and limitations of the Borg's adaption abilities?

Jaden101 accidentally destroyed his own argument when he admitted that the borg rely on adapting to frequencies (which Star Wars weapons don't use) to adapt to weapons.

The high end weapon yield for a photon torpedo from the Enterprise is 64 megatons if they somehow react with 100% efficiency (which is an impossibility based on modern Science). Since the bast is omnidirectional half of it would be going in the opposite direction of the hull, so the actual upper limit in terms of the damage in which it can do is about 32 megatons.

The lower limit for the durability of the shields of a star destoyer is about 1.4E19 joules (actually, this is a very low end estimate). Converted to tons of tnt it's about 3.34 * 10^15 tons of tnt.

3.34 * 10^15 divided by 3200000 (aka 32 megatons) 1043750000.

Basically, the Enterprise would have to launch 1043750000 photon torpedos to get past the shields of a star destroyer, even when we are using high end estimates for the Enterprise and low end estimates for a star destroyer.

That's likely more photon torpedos than the Federation even has in its arsenal.

PWNED! 😉

But then again, doesn't ST have about 10 times the range of SW?

Originally posted by Nephthys
But then again, doesn't ST have about 10 times the range of SW?

Star Trek is very inconsistent when it comes to range. Sometimes they battle at ranges of hundreds of thousands of miles, but then other times they have to move within a few hundred meters to hit a borg cube - and a borg cube isn't exactly a hard to hit target.

Even if they did have ten times the range, Star Trek ships still wouldn't stand any plausible chance against Star War's star destroyers. A BB gun somehow having an effective range of 200 miles still isn't going to stand a plausible chance against a tank.

Again, the Enterprise would have to fire 1043750000 photon torpedos to get past the shields of a star destroyer.

A shielded star destroyer could sit there and have the entire Federation fleet fire at it for days and not even scratch it.

a dozen or more lols, i see the same arguments are being repeated which have been already covered

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
a dozen or more lols, i see the same arguments are being repeated which have been already covered

Clearly you cannot be bothered to actually refute my arguments using (gasp!) logical reasoning.

I used mathematical and scientific calculations to prove my side. You used a picture of a facepalm to "prove" yours.