Revenge of the Sith- Oscars? (Merged)

Originally posted by hunchy
I hate to say it, but our tastes are about as far apart as possible. TPM ha some of the best fx to ever be put on film? I can't believe you even think that, but I think its far from it. I actually thought overall, TPM had better fx than AOTC though, because they actually built sets, and costumes, and some things, while in AOTC basically everything was fake. Even talking CG, TPM is hardly a great achievement. I could name many better fx movies in modern times that use CG:

even Jurassic Park, Lost World, A.I., Minority Report, Sleepy Hollow, T2, even Harry Potter 1 and 2, and definately 3, even the Spider Man films, the LOTR trilogy, the 1st Matrix, even the 2nd and 3rd by far better than the prequel Star Wars movies, not to mention even any Pixar movie which is really sad.

What's really sad is how bad you've been putting down these visually-incredible films.

A lot of people, like you and DeVi| D0do, believe Lucas' decision to shoot digitally was very unwise, mostly because you believe technology hasn't evolved enough to rely solely on CGI for big franchises like this. I disagree. I think Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones were each stunningly beautiful films. TPM had the podrace, Watto, the Planet Core, etc. AOTC had the Coruscant chase and Geonosis. How are you people so critical of these scenes simply because they're mostly digital? The Clonetroopers didn't animate PERFECTLY, so what? It's a great sequence, and to say Matrix 2 and 3 surpassed Ep I and II is absurd.

Hunchy, you say you're fine with CG as long as it looks good, HOW CAN YOU SAY THESE FILMS DIDN'T LOOK GOOD? True, some things in TPM and AOTC don't animate realistically, but then again, I don't think Lucas is trying to do so. ILM has done films that, to you, would look better. Filmmaking is an art, and he probably wants these films to have a stylish, unique look to them. And seeing that Lucas has an unprecedented amount of control over visual effects (or anything else), he achieves exactly that.

AMEN! very nicely said brotha, and actually for chrissake this is flippin SW we are talkin about here!!!!!!

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Originally posted by darth_achilles
AMEN! very nicely said brotha, and actually for chrissake this is flippin SW we are talkin about here!!!!!!

💃 💃 💃 💃

Are you talking about me?

As was said before, I think it comes down to people's different tastes.

In terms of CG and whats out there today AOTC and TPM are fine... visually incredible even. I just think the realism achieved with miniatures and plate photography is missing in much of the film and as a result they end up looking, yes, cartoonish.

Originally posted by hunchy
Haha, my bad. It was right after my post, so I assumed that. Were you referring to Pogel?

I'll never tell... 🙄

Originally posted by HAROLD
What's really sad is how bad you've been putting down these visually-incredible films.

A lot of people, like you and DeVi| D0do, believe Lucas' decision to shoot digitally was very unwise, mostly because you believe technology hasn't evolved enough to rely solely on CGI for big franchises like this. I disagree. I think Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones were each stunningly beautiful films. TPM had the podrace, Watto, the Planet Core, etc. AOTC had the Coruscant chase and Geonosis. How are you people so critical of these scenes simply because they're mostly digital? The Clonetroopers didn't animate PERFECTLY, so what? It's a great sequence, and to say Matrix 2 and 3 surpassed Ep I and II is absurd.

Hunchy, you say you're fine with CG as long as it looks good, HOW CAN YOU SAY THESE FILMS DIDN'T LOOK GOOD? True, some things in TPM and AOTC don't animate realistically, but then again, I don't think Lucas is trying to do so. ILM has done films that, to you, would look better. Filmmaking is an art, and he probably wants these films to have a stylish, unique look to them. And seeing that Lucas has an unprecedented amount of control over visual effects (or anything else), he achieves exactly that.

You actually bring up some good points I haven't heard for awhile. It definately does have a unique style, but question is....is it Star Wars? It feels very different than the OT for a series thats supposed to flow into eachother. But I understand your view. The specific scenes you mention from Episode 1 and 2 are my fav scenes as well. Watoo was very well done.

I wouldn't say its absurd to say Matrix 2 and 3 surpassed Episodes 1 and 2. While they share some bad effects too (the neo vs agent smith fight) I think that they have some great visuals: the highway chase scene from the 2nd, the ghosts, and definately the attack of the machines in the 3rd. That scene was an amazing action scene to watch (not that I was a huge fan of the movie...ending was bad) I mean they spent a million dollars alone on that scene.

Okay, there are scenes that look good in the PT. There's some great shots, some good shots, mediocre shots, and some horrible shots.

Originally posted by HAROLD
Are you talking about me?

yes, u

I wish it would, but no it wont win 🙁

Originally posted by eXSBass
For special effects we have:

- The Opening Space Battle
- Various other shots
- Yoda vs Sids
- Ans Vs Obs

We have a hell ov'a Oscar winning moments there! If we don't win it then the judges are retards!

Originally posted by hunchy
You actually bring up some good points I haven't heard for awhile. It definately does have a unique style, but question is....is it Star Wars? It feels very different than the OT for a series thats supposed to flow into eachother. But I understand your view.

I understand exactly what you mean. But here's what I think.

The PT, so far, has had a different look and feel to it. But I think what Lucas is doing is very subtle at the same time. Visually, he's making the PT look more and more like the OT with each passing episode.

Episode I, when compared to the OT, is totally different. The biggest example of this are the vehicle designs. Look at the Naboo Starfighter. Totally yellow, and a very aerodynamic body -- nothing like the X-Wing. And then you have the insane costumes like Queen Amidala.

Episode II, even though it still contains sometimes-awkwardly animated CG characters, looks more like the OT. My guess is that Lucas will continue this pattern with Episode III, because this one looks more like the OT than the first two.

Maybe what Rob Coleman refers to as "Star Wars physics" will be MIA.

Art direction also plays a strong part in terms of the look of the film.
Like I said somewhere above, a lot of miniatures were and are used for the Prequels. I had a lengthy discussion with a friend about that once, where he particularly complained how "CGIish" the Kamino interiors looked. But matter of fact, a lot of that was miniature.
The prequel Trilogy has a very colourful and clean look, very different then the OT and done on purpose.
And after all, GL does not make gritty realistic portrayts of our world, but a creates a fantasy world beyond what's existing.
And also keep in mind he was disappointed how the OT looked (the sets, costumes, aliens, OFX). Many people have fallen in love with that look.

In interesting question: Would it have been OK if Lucas had made (completely) animated features?
I know that it's not possible to make that look "real", but maybe people would have accepted the look more then they do today if it was one whole of "not realism".

I still say: If you don't see the film as a gritty "realistic" film, it still has the most amazing and well executed VFX ever to be banned on film throughout. (With very few exeptions)

Originally posted by Smegulated
When the effects people say all digital it doesn't mean all cg necessarily it usually means that its all constructed from elements on the computer.
In the geonosis scenes the foreground is miniature for the ground shots. there are so many minitures in these films as well as matt paintings.

the funny thing is is when people say they shouldn't use too much cg,

well how else would you do it ? 'usually' they only use it if it cant be done any other way. How would you film a flying shot on geonosis or Kamino? How would you get thousands of clones and droids t run around. it would take a long time to wait for a stormly ocean to film. i don't know about you but there aren't many cities like corasant, or any that wold let you fly a camera around at 100 mph. You coudn't shot minitures at that speed, just like the podrace.

People that say that theres too much cg it almost make it sound like the film makers cheating. Theres just as much artisty in a real set or a miniture one or in cg modles, if not more so.

You could obviously do the clone troopers but i think they look brilliant. you can't really say there animated badly because there mostly motion captured.

Exactly, lets be realistic here. Did Peter Jackson have to some up with an alien world? Huge exotic alien worlds? No, he had to make everything look like england back in the day since that's what middle earth looks like. Lucky for him, New Zealand hasn't been completely paved over. But WTF is Lucas supposed to do? He HAD to use cgi and miniature for everything because it would all look too earthy without it. So obviously we all KNOW its CGI because our brains KNOW those locations don't exist.

And as for the clone troopers movements, I find it pretty funny people are criticising their movements. You do all know they recorded someone in one of those wet suits covered in ping pong balls to digitally map the clones moves right? Again, you have to do you research before you try to get all authoritative on our @$$es. The only flaw of CGI on the clones is the lighting on their visors because thats just something the whole CG industry hasn't really mastered, reflective surfaces that have to move.

But other than that, the Geonosis segment was one of the most mindblowing pieces of special effects I've ever seen. And Lucas doesn't cover all his shots in oversaturating filters to wash out matte lines like the Matrix and LOTR's do ALL THE TIME. Its clever, and it does look good that way, but Lucas had already established that his shots should be clear in the OT, and that's what he stuck to. I think the fact that the PT hasn't hid behind filters and is still on the same level (in my opinion better) than LOTR's and Matrix, the two other stunning staples of modern effects, is just incredible. Not to mention that each film contributes TONS of new methods to the industry, and thus deserves a damn Oscar, plain and simple.

Originally posted by hunchy
Yes very well put. I very much agree. Actually, I myself, will probably get knocked for ssaying so, but I actually liked Van Helsing and thought it had good fx.

Wait, let me get this straight, you point out all these "flaws" in the PT, and then you say Van Helsing you LIKED? That movie has FAR more technical problems in its CG than the worst CG in the PT. I don't mean to be so blunt here, but do you KNOW what you're talking about? I don't mean what you like, I mean about the technical aspects of CGI and visual effects as a whole? Wow, that comment just threw me, you've made some valid points before and supported them well, but then you go and say Van Helsing had good effects...wow. Just...wow. The whole Van Helsing as a werewolf fight vs. Dracula? C'mon! That was the worst CG characters I've seen in a LOOOOOONNNG time. Everything in the PT has looked more realistic than that...even that horrid shot of Anakin on that cow thingy on Naboo (which I admit, was not done up to the rest of the films standards).

Just wanted to make that "probably knocked" for saying that a defintely. Though I wouldnt have even pointed that out if you weren't so steadfast on your points about the PT effects 😄

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
As was said before, I think it comes down to people's different tastes.

In terms of CG and whats out there today AOTC and TPM are fine... visually incredible even. I just think the realism achieved with miniatures and plate photography is missing in much of the film and as a result they end up looking, yes, cartoonish.

Do you have any idea HOW MUCH plate photography and miniatures were used in the PT? 99% of Naboo's shots are plate photography, Tatooine, the Wookiee homeworld, most of the battle sequences in the new film are from plate photograhy. And TONS of shots were miniature and CG combined. Most of the sets have a bit of model and a bit of CG. I think everyone needs to go watch ALL the special features on the DVD's as a little homework assignment for this thread. A lot of these sort of generalizations that a lot of people have been perpetuating would be put to rest if everyone watched all those documentaries...

And by the way I agree with Hunchy and a few others who said this thread has been great, it really has. Most intelligent thread on here in a LONG time. No "would darth maul beat a Bantha if they were suspended over Gotham City and Frodo was the referee" buisness, nice work everyone on keeping this discussion well informed and well thought out!

Harold, it is true that with each episode it becomes more like the OT, as that was George Lucas's plan, and I believe that it looks like Episode 3 does a great job of leading into Episode 4.

To say the prequels have some of the best fx ever, is going WAY WAY WAY overboard.

And mephistodesigns, are you that stupid to make those comments about LOTR and PJ. He doesnt' have to create ALIENS, but you must not have seen the movies, because there's a hell of a lot of strange looking creatures and monsters out there, not to mention on of the best executed CGI creatures EVER made: Gollum...thus, it beat out AOTC, and very, very, very rightfully.

I know there were quite a few models built. But do you know the percent of how of the movie was CGI? It was a hell of a lot. There were about 2000 fx shots out of 2200 shots in the film. Practically every scene in the movie is loaded with CGI, or the background is fake, or partially fake, etc.

We never said the movements of the clone troopers were bad. Stopping putting words in our mouths. I said that they LOOKED bad. Now, if it wasn't in a partly live action movie, they'd look great, and they even look good in some shots, but overall they just look fake compared to real people.

And yes I defend Van Helsing, because it uses CG when needed. I thought the movie was fun, and I liked the end fight (the fight between Dracula and Van Helsing as a werewolf I thought was visually good). See because they don't make human characters CG, or backgrounds CG, or locations CG, I can enjoy it better. It doesn't have to do with what I'm talking about. It has to do with my opinions. I mean, yes, Attack of the Clones has more fx shots, thus there will be more bad, and yes, more good overall than Van Helsing. But the number of bad shots where I just cringe in AOTC...there are many....I mean, I thought they did Dr.Jekyll/Mr.Hyde very well CG, because its like the Hulk, something that wouldn't look as good done real. I guess I'm more judgemental, because Star Wars is something I love, and Van Helsing I went to see just for popcorn.

I do agree, the whole last 40 min on Geonosis are amazing to watch and are very entertaining. While I think there are few bad fx shots here, I don't mind because the sequence is so much fun.

Here's an example of a bad looking shot from Episode 2 in my opinion.

The only real problem I have with that shot...and most of the sequence...is that the buildings don't look wet. They are shiny...but don't look like they have so much rain dripping off them. Some digital double shots are poor...but this one shot I can live with.

Originally posted by mephistodesigns
And as for the clone troopers movements, I find it pretty funny people are criticising their movements. You do all know they recorded someone in one of those wet suits covered in ping pong balls to digitally map the clones moves right? Again, you have to do you research before you try to get all authoritative on our @$$es. The only flaw of CGI on the clones is the lighting on their visors because thats just something the whole CG industry hasn't really mastered, reflective surfaces that have to move.

Originally posted by mephistodesigns
Do you have any idea HOW MUCH plate photography and miniatures were used in the PT? 99% of Naboo's shots are plate photography, Tatooine, the Wookiee homeworld, most of the battle sequences in the new film are from plate photograhy. And TONS of shots were miniature and CG combined. Most of the sets have a bit of model and a bit of CG. I think everyone needs to go watch ALL the special features on the DVD's as a little homework assignment for this thread. A lot of these sort of generalizations that a lot of people have been perpetuating would be put to rest if everyone watched all those documentaries...

As for the new film... like I said, I'll reserve my judgment until I see it completed.

On PJ and LOTR: I think what sold the effects there more than AOTC for me was that, as you said, they were all earthy environments. As for the creatures... almost all of the close-ups were costumes and prosthetics and make-up, which I think is far better than CG. The only CG that was used was for masses of Orc's or Urakhai's... Those costumes were excellent and far superior to any effect CG can produce.

I think part of what sold Gollum more, was that all his movements were mapped from Andy's on the set or on location. The Clone's movement just seem so unnatural

Originally posted by hunchy
Harold, it is true that with each episode it becomes more like the OT, as that was George Lucas's plan, and I believe that it looks like Episode 3 does a great job of leading into Episode 4.

To say the prequels have some of the best fx ever, is going WAY WAY WAY overboard.

And mephistodesigns, are you that stupid to make those comments about LOTR and PJ. He doesnt' have to create ALIENS, but you must not have seen the movies, because there's a hell of a lot of strange looking creatures and monsters out there, not to mention on of the best executed CGI creatures EVER made: Gollum...thus, it beat out AOTC, and very, very, very rightfully.

apparently not as "stupid" as you are if you think for a minute Gollum had more going on than Yoda. Sounds like somebody just likes to follow trendy view points to me...