youre right swanky he didnt have any powers at the beginning but he was still handling hulk, now he has a healing factor including adamantium bones, why wouldnt he be able to handle the hulk now and due to his healing factor and adamantium why would he be able to jump right back up when hulk punches him.
Back to the fight rogue wins due to knock out and spiderman suffering from fatigue.
Originally posted by derrick24
my point who kid is that spiderman has weak enemies, except venom and carnage. He only fights humans with no skill that happens to run across a machine or extra power. Doc ock, can be shot to death, stabbed, drowned. Vulture, just an old man in a suit. Rhino is pretty good. Lizard a scientist who experiment goes wrong. None of his enemies has any kind of experience, except vulture whos been around for 80 yrs. Spiderman needs to stick to fighting the enhanced humans.
"What about Titania? She is around Rogue's Ms. Marvel strength/durability or higher and Spidey beats the crap out of her."
Swanky we have already gone through this. I wasnt going to rejoin this debate until i saw a couple of people repeating the same tired old points which got countered about a month ago.
Theres a big difference between rogue and the titania at the point spidey beat her:
1) Titania had had her powers for a few hours, so she was extremely inexperienced and ill-prepared for such a match up
2) before she was a a wimp who was continually bullied througout her life and she developed insecurity and social issues and an unstable temperament meaning that a smart enough opponent could goad her into losing it quite easily and fighting wrecklessly as has been quite apparent in virtually all her appearances
3)Titania was actually stronger than rogue shes around she hulks original level, however she lacks either she hulk or rogues agility and manoeuvrability. Plus the big factor is she is ground based so she aint reaching spidey 4 sh*t if he doesnt want her to.
a) Rogue has had years upon years of training and experience in the use of her powers both on the battlefield and in the danger room. She has also been heavily tutored in various martial arts. Although nightcrawlers speed and agility arent quite as gd as spideys his teleportation ability closes the gap and makes him highly evasive rogue has experience in facing off against the likes of him, beast and toad plus she has fought alongside spiderman and is well aware of the extent of his agility. and Spidey taking out titania doesnt support your argument in the slightest. She was a useless fighter.
b) Rogue is a highly trained fighter and is mentally stable. Spidey would not be able to goad her into being wreckless like he does with virtually all of his opponents he beats, who all just happen to be dumb, big brawlers with no skills and social issues. Rogue is very focused and knows of those spidey tactics. She is level headed which is the reason she briefly became Xmen leader.
c) Rogue is alot more manouevrable than the similarly super strength foes spidey has faced. She can fly in excess of the speed of sound she will be able to reach spidey. She can traverse distances a lot quicker than he can. He might be able to dodge around a lot of the time but when you factor in Rogues 'seventh sense' her ability to anticipate an enemies actions, plus her speed, she will catch him eventually and when she does just think about her super strength, her martial arts capabilities and her absorption powers. Spidey gets taken down. It would be a good fight and it would be a long fight. Not because he is as powerful as her but because he would be running for his life throughout. She would catch him in the end and lay him to rest.
You have good points, but so do I lol 😄 . You can read them here below:
1. Spider-Man is more experienced than Rogue. Hm, make that LOTS more experienced. He's also lots smarter.
2. Spider-Man's reflexes, agility and spidersense will make that Rogue can not lay a finger on him - only when written right of course.
3. Spider-Man on the other hand will have no problem whatsoever hitting Rogue. He won't hold back, and she WILL feel it ! He definitely has the strength to knock her lights out.
4. Spider-Man faces more dangerous enemies than Rogue almost on daily basis (okay I am exaggerating but you get the idea).
5. The web alone will give Rogue something she just can't handle.
"But she still had the durability and Spiderman still hurt her?"
Of course rogue would feel the affects of a constant pounding over and over. Just like titania did. Just like a little 4yr old kid can hurt an adult especially if the strike comes outta the blue. But rogue isnt going to let spiderman just constantly pound her.
He could do that to titania because she was a rubbish fighter who had her powers a few hours and she was ground based so he jump circles around her and use his speed to avoid her clumsy blows while belting her from all angles.
Rogue being airborne completely nullifies that tactic. Spidey can not fly he will not be able to jump around hitting from all angles while she is airborne.
". Spider-Man's reflexes, agility and spidersense will make that Rogue can not lay a finger on him - only when written right of course."
Rogues reflexes are incredible she is certainly no slouch in that area. As has been stated she has caught bullets out of the air and thrown them back while fighting the neo. Those type of reflexes coupled with her 7th sense mean she will not get constantly pounded on by spidey and also mean she could set up traps for him.
Just as a rough example she could throw a projectile at him and anticipate where hes going to leap out of the way to.
"He definitely has the strength to knock her lights out."
Not with a single blow. Extrememly unlikely. After a constant pounding. But rogue isnt going to stand there and take that. Spidey was all over titania because she didnt hav any fighting skills and she couldnt get out of his reach or even take the fight to him. Rogue can do both.
Also one strong blow from rogue and spidey is out. U might say "oh spideys taken blows from blah blah blah" who are mmuch stronger than blah blah blah. However in those cases they didnt make full on contact because they were slow (mentally and physically) big brawlers. Rogue has the speed and the reflexes to connect. And when she does its over for spidey. Spidey on the other hand needs to pound away at her to win. He can only effectively do a so called speed blitz on her while shes on the ground and thats not debatable. Rogue can get out of such a situation by getting airborne which is how she usually fights anyway and also through her martial arts training.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Rogues reflexes are incredible she is certainly no slouch in that area. As has been stated she has caught bullets out of the air and thrown them back while fighting the neo. Those type of reflexes coupled with her 7th sense mean she will not get constantly pounded on by spidey and also mean she could set up traps for him.
Now back to business : I know Rogue has this kind of extra sense - first introduced when she fought Warlocks father - but this "sense" of her only works when some writer actually realizes Rogue possesses this sense.
In LOTS of cases, Rogues extra sense was on holiday when she was beaten by, oh let's say Sabretooth.
Not with a single blow. Extrememly unlikely. After a constant pounding.
Oh yeah, and don't forget the web 😉.
"Question : what's her sixth sense ?
Now back to business : I know Rogue has this kind of extra sense - first introduced when she fought Warlocks father - but this "sense" of her only works when some writer actually realizes Rogue possesses this sense."
Ok Spidey has class 10 strength but readers dont always know about this because writers rarely write him doing feats making this apparent. He could juggle small cars if he wanted but the fact that writers dont show off his strength doesnt mean he doesnt hav it does it?
Rogues 7TH sense allows her to subconsciously anticipate an enemies actions giving her an advantage in a fight. In comparison to spideys just warning him that danger is approaching.
"Agree, but it isn't gonna take him forever either. In a few seconds, he can deal out lots of damage.
Oh yeah, and don't forget the web ."
Dont u realise that spidey is only going to be able to pull off the speed blitz he'd need to take down someone of rogues durability if they are ground based. If they arent then spidey is basically f**ked and has to come up with a new tactic.
As for the web. It is as strong as steel cable. Venom rips it tto shreds and he is class 11. It would hinder rogue for all of a second or two and that is not enough time for spidey to take her out. That is not debatable.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ok Spidey has class 10 strength but readers dont always know about this because writers rarely write him doing feats making this apparent. He could juggle small cars if he wanted but the fact that writers dont show off his strength doesnt mean he doesnt hav it does it?
Rogues 7TH sense allows her to subconsciously anticipate an enemies actions giving her an advantage in a fight. In comparison to spideys just warning him that danger is approaching.
As for the web. It is as strong as steel cable. Venom rips it tto shreds and he is class 11. It would hinder rogue for all of a second or two and that is not enough time for spidey to take her out. That is not debatable.
Venom breaking his web : bad writing, plain and simple.
"It sure is debatable. Hulk has - a bit - trouble breaking it. Namor can not break it. Rogue herself has said she could not break it.
Venom breaking his web : bad writing, plain and simple."
One word for this. INCORRECT. Hulk having trouble breaking it is bad writing if anything. Im guessing if he was fighting spidey he would have been in his dumb savage form and would have been perplexed by the sticky substance. If it was Professor hulk it would hav been dealt wiv in a nanosecond.
Namor not being able to break it is just ridiculous. Do u wanna post some proof of that. I heard about there battle and spidey was apparently running for his life. If thats true that supports my argument.
Rogue could very well break his web. Youre referring to secret wars when he webbed her from behind mid flight so she was snagged on it unexpectedly. Therefore giving her trouble. Kinda like shutting your coat in the door. It mentions nowhere that she couldnt break. I hav the graphic novel in front of me if u desire an exact quote.
Originally posted by GalacticStormOne word for this. INCORRECT. Hulk having trouble breaking it is bad writing if anything. Im guessing if he was fighting spidey he would have been in his dumb savage form and would have been perplexed by the sticky substance. If it was Professor hulk it would hav been dealt wiv in a nanosecond.
If Hulk is completely covered under web, it takes him let's say 10 seconds to break free (Spider-Mans own words, not mine, and it is true, because he covered Hulk under web in the past.)
[quote]Namor not being able to break it is just ridiculous. Do u wanna post some proof of that.
Rogue could very well break his web. Youre referring to secret wars when he webbed her from behind mid flight so she was snagged on it unexpectedly. Therefore giving her trouble. Kinda like shutting your coat in the door. It mentions nowhere that she couldnt break.
(no, don't tell me, her extra sense 😉 )
"No lol, I don't. You'll just have to believe me "
In that case it is IGNORED unless some credible people back you up. My understanding of that fight is that spidey spent most of it running scared. Why? Cos Namor took the fight to him because he could via his power of flight. Being airborne prevents spidey from performing a speed blitz. Spideys only hope against rogue would be to saturate her in webbing. So that he could absolutely pummel her with all hes got.
That is very unlikely to happen. Rogue can fly at mach speeds and is adept at dodging projectiles. That training coupled with her 7th sense mean that she could more than likely evade his attempts to web her up. Thus taking out of the picture spideys sole chance at victory.
"Hmm, tell me, why couldn't he do the same thing to Rogue ?"
Just hav my young friend.
It was a good attempt tho. Youre getting better. 🙄
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
In that case it is IGNORED unless some credible people back you up.
But I'll give you a hint : SM and Namor were fighting on a ship ! In the middle of the ocean ! In Namors own habitat ! So Namor had a huge advantage.
Guess what : Spider-Man was dominating the fight and was still joking while Namor was getting weaker every second.
And yes, Namor admitted he could not break the web. Just like Rogue 😉
Cos Namor took the fight to him because he could via his power of flight. Being airborne prevents spidey from performing a speed blitz.
Yeah I know, Firelord was thinking the same thing 😄.
No SvFL
Spiderman vs. Firelord, or SvFL, is a shorthand that refers to any time when a character performs a feat that their powers and skills should be blatantly insufficient for, and is not repeated or is rarely repeated again relative to the character's overall established career, as well as the character's opponents' established showings. In statistical terms, it is an outlier, something that is radically beyond the character's established capabilities. For example, Spiderman defeating a herald of Galactus is a case of the SvFL exemption; however, Batman being able to sneak up on Superman is not because he has done so frequently under different writers.
For standard debates, feats considered to fall under the SvFL exemption are not valid. Likewise, examples of writing which go against firmly set canon are also ignored. For example, in Larry Hama's run of Batman and Grell's run of Iron Man, both characters were out of character and did things very much against established canon; therefore those runs are disregarded.
Originally posted by Draco69
No SvFLSpiderman vs. Firelord, or SvFL, is a shorthand that refers to any time when a character performs a feat that their powers and skills should be blatantly insufficient for, and is not repeated or is rarely repeated again relative to the character's overall established career, as well as the character's opponents' established showings. In statistical terms, it is an outlier, something that is radically beyond the character's established capabilities. For example, Spiderman defeating a herald of Galactus is a case of the SvFL exemption; however, Batman being able to sneak up on Superman is not because he has done so frequently under different writers.
For standard debates, feats considered to fall under the SvFL exemption are not valid. Likewise, examples of writing which go against firmly set canon are also ignored. For example, in Larry Hama's run of Batman and Grell's run of Iron Man, both characters were out of character and did things very much against established canon; therefore those runs are disregarded.