ROTS Obi-wan vs. The Exile

Retarded my ass, she had no experience with the forms that the Masters used and yet she was mastering them mid-combat to a degree that she could surpass their own knowledge and kill them with it. That is the extent to which she can mirror an opponent.

The Masters weren't terrible duelists at all, every council member is stated to be a master lightsaber combatant, Kavar was a famed Jedi Guardian so skilled that even Canderous thought he'd lead the republic in the Mandalorian Wars, until Revan came along, and he isn't even as good a duelist as the other masters Meetra meets, let alone Atris.

But hey make shitty spite replies in return, that's convincing.

The only thing that's shitty is your fanwanking

The only thing shitty is the idea I ever take anything you say with anything but sheer contempt.

The fact you think Meetra can contend with Kenobi in spite of getting Lolstomped by a less skilled duelist is even more contemptible 👆

The fact you lack reading comprehension is the funniest thing yet, Meetra wasn't outskilled by Nyriss at all. Nyriss' fully focused assault, which immediately prior had instantly floored Scourge, an expert swordsman who had high-level mastery of numerous forms, couldn't penetrate Meetra's defenses.

Nyriss had to physically overwhelm Meetra on a nexus stated to prevent Surik from any attempt at meditation or enlightenment, both of which are stated to make her perform better physically.

More to the point, instead of fallacious comparisons with no basis, care to explain how Kenobi is going to actually kill Surik when his Force powers can't defeat her and his form relies on an opponent who has bad judgement or poor stamina, neither of which can be attributed to Meetra Surik?

Something only further highlighted by the fact Meetra herself is a high-level Soresu master with the abilities of both Echani and Battle precognition, allowing her to know exactly what he is going to do before he does it.

So AP, where is the line exactly? If Meetra can just copy Obi Wan's moves to a sufficient extent to beat him, can she copy Anakin's? Yoda's?

And again, Grievous could do that to, and it was explicitly stated that Obi Wan's movements were particularly difficult to replicate. Upon being confronted with this, you punt the discussion from battle precognition to Force precognition, which...um...Obi Wan has too. So you have no reason to think that Meetra holds any particular advantage.

Meanwhile, Obi Wan's soresu is at a high enough level that Dooku concluded he wouldn't be able to break his guard via a duel in the RotS novelization, and has to resort to telekinesis. What has Meetra done? Kill a bunch of random dark jedi? Defeat the oh-so-legendary duelist Traya? Come on now.

Meetra's greatest dueling feat is dividing and conquering at the Trayus academy, which while impressive by no means puts her on Kenobi level.

Kenobi kills her.

The line would be drawn to the extent where Force prowess simply outshines her, Obi-Wan isn't more powerful but replace Obi-Wan with Maul or Anakin and she physically cannot keep up and the skill she had wanes infront of natural lightsaber prodigies like them.

Meetra has never once lost a duel, as in she has never been outskilled, Nyriss physically overpowered her but that was it, in countless battles she hasn't once lost in a lightsaber contest.

This is where it gets really gripey for me though, sure Obi-Wan Kenobi and co. are legendary all-time greats, but Revan and Surik are legendary as well and for good reason. Why should we assume that the two of them get 'slaughterhoused' in any contest with PT duelists? What is it with the era bias?

Why can't we simply make a direct comparison between the two instead of shitting on anybody not PT era?

And I get called retarded for not conforming to this singular view that exposure = win.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The line would be drawn to the extent where Force prowess simply outshines her,

So nobody can possibly beat her through bladework?

Obi-Wan isn't more powerful but replace Obi-Wan with Maul or Anakin and she physically cannot keep up and the skill she had wanes infront of natural lightsaber prodigies like them.

Natural lightsaber prodigies? Obi Wan seems to have that too, according to plenty of people such as Windu, Dooku, etc. Dooku didn't even think he could penetrate his defenses via bladework.

Meetra has never once lost a duel, as in she has never been outskilled, Nyriss physically overpowered her but that was it, in countless battles she hasn't once lost in a lightsaber contest.

Being physically overpowered kinda matters, since overpowering Kenobi is the only realistic shot she'd have; it's not like she can penetrate his soresu via bladework if Dooku couldn't.

This is where it gets really gripey for me though, sure Obi-Wan Kenobi and co. are legendary all-time greats, but Revan and Surik are legendary as well and for good reason. Why should we assume that the two of them get 'slaughterhoused' in any contest with PT duelists? What is it with the era bias?

It's not an era bias, it's

a) its being referenced as the Jedi's prime
b) the incredibly concentration of top-tier combatants (there was maybe one Palpatine tier combatant [Vitiate] in 25,000 years, and then like several in just one hundred [Sidious, Yoda, Luke, etc.]).
c) Obi Wan just having better feats and accolades

Why can't we simply make a direct comparison between the two instead of shitting on anybody not PT era?

When comparing duelists between eras, you sort of have to power-scale, which requires matching eras.

And I get called retarded for not conforming to this singular view that exposure = win.

Exposure unto itself doesn't guarantee a win, but someone piling up feats and accolades does get the benefit of the doubt over someone who has basically nothing, just probalistically speaking. Like a random guy I pass could be a nobel prize winner, but I'd bet not.

Yes but where do you draw the line on a character legendary for their abilities and feats?

Meetra butchering three legions of elite Sith, back-to-back, whom in turn had killed tens of thousands of Jedi, Jedi who accordingly are the most battle-hardened and skilled in the history of the order. These Sith even had ranks and weapons gifted to them depending on how many Jedi they slew in personal combat. It is easily one of the single best series of feats of any Jedi in the mythos.

But apparently one bad physical display on a dark side nexus after a really shitty week turns her into an average Jedi who gets slapped around by any marginally skilled PT master?

It's not even funny considering she drastically out-performs a guy like Scourge, who turns out to be an equal for the Hero of Tython in SWTOR, with a disadvantageous environment going against her.

Like what exactly is the logic because I'm seeing a total lack of any.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Meetra's greatest dueling feat is dividing and conquering at the Trayus academy, which while impressive by no means puts her on Kenobi level.

Kenobi kills her.

Only one wing of the academy allowed such an advantage:

This wing of the academy is also teeming with Sith; fortunately, the many doors help keep them separated, allowing you to divide and conquer.
-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Trayus Academy's eastern wing is a warren of cramped rooms packed with alert Sith.
-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

The rest of the Academy was packed:

The majestic halls of the Trayus Crescent are thronged with Sith and not much else.
-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Only by fighting your way through the Sith's strongest guardians can you earn the right to confront your nemesis.
-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

To reach the structure's core, where Darth Sion and Kreia await, you must face a legion of elite Sith single-handedly.
-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Again, these are the same Sith that wiped out tens of thousands of Jedi:

Kreia took the name Darth Traya, and her followers called themselves the Sith after the long-lost species that had invaded the Republic a millennium before. They began a systemic purge of the galaxy, hunting down those who still held fast to the Jedi Code, killing them by the tens of thousands.
-_Star Wars The Old Republic Revan

These Jedi are stated to be the best on the battlefield bar none:

"The many wars of the era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and force related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists capable of taking on Dark Jedi and Sith in single combat. "
-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

During this time, the Jedi Order is at the summit of its power and self-confidence... Knights of the Old Republic campaigns take place against a backdrop that captures everything that makes Star Wars unique. Even more so than in the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime. They do battle with the evil Sith, and defend the galaxy against the Mandalorian hordes."
-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

These Sith are stated to have increased their abilities beyond the aforementioned trained:

The Sith students of Darth Revan and Darth Malak are many of the same Jedi Crusaders that once fought for the republic. Already proficient in the Jedi arts, these marauders acquire new nefarious talents. During the Dark Wars, surviving Sith students submit to the triumvirate.
-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

The Sith assassins were specialized in practical ways of killing Jedi directly:

These surreptitious butchers specialize in practical modes of Jedi execution. The most elite of these assassins are the Bladeborn - Sith blademasters.
-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

The Sith Masterblades are stated to have gained their weapons by killing at least ten lightsaber weilding Jedi:

A Sith offshoot dedicated to sword mastery, this Sith Tremor Sword was given to Masterblades for surviving no less than ten encounters with lightsaber wielding opponents.
-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

This is the level these Sith are at and yet the Exile is killing them by the legion, inbetween killing Atris, Darth Nihilus, Darth Sion and Darth Traya whom are stated to be essentially ultra-powerful dark side powerhouses:

Amazingly dark and devastating powers are the purview of some of the greatest Sith Lords of the Knights of the Old Republic era.
-Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition

Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side.
-Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition

The Exile is not however an average being, she's a destructive powerhouse:

[The Exile] should be a powerhouse of destruction.
-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

The idea she's getting 'slaughterhoused' by Obi-Wan is frankly comical.

I like how you still argue for there being "tens of thousands of Jedi," being killed by these people.

It's a retcon of a statement by Kreia, reinforced by other SWTOR media at that.

You wouldn't mind providing that source then.

"Kreia took the name Darth Traya, and her followers called themselves the Sith after the long-lost species that had invaded the Republic a millennium before. They began a systemic purge of the galaxy, hunting down those who still held fast to the Jedi Code, killing them by the tens of thousands."

- Revan

Another point towards Drew's stupidity.

The logic isn't too stretched, the Jedi during the Conclave on Deneba numbered around 10,000, which is stated to be almost the entire order. Then after the Great Sith War ended, the Jedi had four decades of rapid regrowth and restructure where they entered their prime.

The Jedi Civil War numbers aren't given properly but the number of Revanchists at Malachor V are apparently in the thousands, obviously the Revanchists don't make up the entire Jedi order which is much larger in number.

10,000-20,000 Jedi is hardly beyond belief, Nihilus wiping out Katarr can make up much of that.

Yet Traya said barely a hundred Jedi remained after the war, so she was just off by several thousand?

Originally posted by Selenial
I'm not seeing it mmm

Cool. And I'm not seeing how Caedus, Krayt, Cade, Ulic, Exar, or Maul is better than him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yet Traya said barely a hundred Jedi remained after the war, so she was just off by several thousand?

What Trays says is not infallible, she may only be referring to openly active Jedi of the order, not the many fence sitters.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Cool. And I'm not seeing how Caedus, Krayt, Cade, Ulic, Exar, or Maul is better than him.

😘

You've fallen far.