Originally posted by SelenialShii-Cho is a perfect counter to Grievous how? Regardless your mixing continuities here, Grievous is not as lethal in Canon as he is in Legends so we can't assume Kit Fisto would so easily defeat Legends Grievous when Windu failed, who believed even Yoda wasn't up it. Or alternatively if you want to reconcile the continuities, you accept that Grievous inordinately improved.
Because Soresu and Shii-Cho are the perfect counters to Grievous? Or are we going to start arguing that Kit Fisto is also Windu/Yoda level because he schooled Grievous with literal ease?
Contending with a reckless, fatigued and mentally conflicted Anakin, yes.Who nonetheless possessed a vast Force augmentative advantage over him, to the point at which he almost broke his bones with his grip, and despite Kenobi only being fully committed to killing Anakin half way through the engagement. It only served to level the playing field.
I also question how being surprised that someone's learned another form is proof that they're some God with a bladeHe wasn't just surprised, rather met with "a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike", though of course why being comparable to the Count makes you anything resembling a "God with the blade" is beyond me. I assume you're being facetious.
let alone why you're using quotes that have been massively contradicted in other canon sources.Oh yes, I imagine.
This has nothing to do with Soresu as a style, merely that being the best Soresu wielder does not put one on par with the best Juyo wielder, or the best Makashi duelist. That's just not how it works 😬Not it doesn't, but it's baseless to slight it on the notion that its apparently lacking in talent.
If by appreciation, you mean baseless and frankly poorly argued wank, sure.Lmao.
Not necessarily, if we're just talking accolades (which is what you brought up) they're not really that different.I brought up accomplishments as well as accolades, that's what I meant when I said he's been compared and compares. As in it's been stated as well as demonstrated in practice.
That said, no, being mentioned in the same sentence as an individual, is not the same as being established as a peer in a direct comparison.
Forgive me for saying this, but I don't give a shit what you're assessing? We're discussing the greatest duelists in the mythos, that cannot happen without including every physical and tactical attribute those individuals possess. Solid moving of the goalposts here Beni.Lol what? You have a different viewpoint from me (which you nowhere specified) on what constitutes duelling ability, one you assume everyone else shares, therefore I'm moving the goalposts? More like your establishing criteria half way into a discussion to skew it in your favour.
Regardless I disagree, while your skill as a duellist is certainly amplified by Force augmentation, precognition etc. its fundamentally a matter of technique. Unless we are going to suggest Darth Sidious' ability to blitz the B-Team makes him an infinitely greater duellist. Or that Revan is a better duelist than Kenobi because he'd probably beat him in sabers.
Personally I make a distinction between strict duelling talent, and overall combative ability. And in that regard I put Kenobi where I put him. And of course in the contexts in which this is being discussed, only technique is relevant - so if anyone's moving the goalposts that would be you. 😬
We know a lot about its practitioners, actually. The greatest Duelists of the Jedi are, in no particular order: Ki Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti, Yoda, Windu, Anakin, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Obi Wan Kenobi, Eeth Koth, Saesee Tiin, Plo Koon and more.Oh is that the case? Do you have a source for this or did you pull that list out of yourLiterally none of them wielded Soresu as their primary form. Kenobi being the best practitioner does not solidify him in duelist rankings in the way you suggested, because we know that no other high class duelist is a Soresu practitioner. If he was called the greatest practitioner of Ataru, at least that places him above people like Qui Gon, Shaak Ti and Yoda, who wield it as their primary forms.[/b]
Fact is unless you possess detailed information on all 10,000 Jedi in the Order, you cannot possibly claim with any level of objectivity to know who all the greatest duellists of the Jedi are. So no, for all we know there could be dozens of Soresu users you have overlooked, in fact it's probably likely seeing as it was one of the most prominent forms at the time.
That's why being the best Soresu practitioner isn't as good of a quote as saying someone's the best Juyo practitioner. One puts you above Mace Windu, the other puts you above Coleman Trebor 😕As far as power scaling is concerned sure, but in terms of praise and recognition? Its equal, because Soresu is not an underperforming style in comparison to Juyo, or any other form.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Shii-Cho is a perfect counter to Grievous how? Regardless your mixing continuities here, Grievous is not as lethal in Canon as he is in Legends so we can't assume Kit Fisto would so easily defeat Legends Grievous when Windu failed, who believed even Yoda wasn't up it. Or alternatively if you want to reconcile the continuities, you accept that Grievous inordinately improved.
Who nonetheless possessed a vast Force augmentative advantage over him, to the point at which he almost broke his bones with his grip, and despite Kenobi only being fully committed to killing Anakin half way through the engagement. It only served to level the playing field.
Yes... it served to level the playing field. That's exactly what I'm saying? 😕
He wasn't just surprised, rather met with "a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike"
You're kind of ignoring the fact that quote comes in before Dooku realises Kenobi is using Soresu. No competent bladesman would attack like that after an opponent surprisingly changes styles, especially not with Skywalker next to him. It's an impressive feat, don't mistake me, but it doesn't put him above Dooku, since Dooku couldn't extend himself when Anakin was there.
Oh yes, I imagine.
Yes, the fact they fought numerous times during the Clone Wars.
Not it doesn't, but it's baseless to slight it on the notion that its apparently lacking in talent.
Where did I imply that?
That said, no, being mentioned in the same sentence as an individual, is not the same as being established as a peer in a direct comparison.Lol what? You have a different viewpoint from me (which you nowhere specified) on what constitutes duelling ability, one you assume everyone else shares, therefore I'm moving the goalposts? More like your establishing criteria half way into a discussion to skew it in your favour.
Taking out force augmentation is clinically retarded. How do you compare Ataru and Soresu duelists then? Ataru duelists entirely rely on force augmentation for their speed, compare them without it and you have absolutely no measuring sticks whatsoever. How about Djem So? With no force augmentation, none of Anakin's feats mean diddly squat, because he cannot accomplish them without his Force Valor. You can't compare Kenobi and Skywalker as duelists then, simply because you don't have any capable methods of doing it.
What's more, technical skill is ****ing irrelevant in every debate ever. Dueling ability with force augmentation isn't.
Regardless I disagree, while your skill as a duellist is certainly amplified by Force augmentation, precognition etc. its fundamentally a matter of technique. Unless we are going to suggest Darth Sidious' ability to blitz the B-Team makes him an infinitely greater duellist. Or that Revan is a better duelist than Kenobi because he'd probably beat him in sabers.
Yes, Sidious' speed makes him infinitely better as a duelist. Glad you're catching on here 🙂
Because that's the only way this is actually relevant.
Personally I make a distinction between strict duelling talent, and overall combative ability.
Yes, combative ability includes alter applications of the force.
Oh is that the case? Do you have a source for this or did you pull that list out of yourasshead? I assume the latter seeing as you've missed some significant names and included a view rather dubious ones, but more importantly because I know no such list exists.
I was merely listing off every Jedi I know has an accolade placing them as the best duelists in the order. I know I missed some, that's why I said and others.
Fact is unless you possess detailed information on all 10,000 Jedi in the Order, you cannot possibly claim with any level of objectivity to know who all the greatest duellists of the Jedi are. So no, for all we know there could be dozens of Soresu users you have overlooked, in fact it's probably likely seeing as it was one of the most prominent forms at the time.
So what you're saying is every quote about Jedi being the top duelists in the order, or every quote saying the Council Members are the most skilled etc. is irrelevant because there's a no named Jedi we've never seen or heard of that could be better than them?
As far as power scaling is concerned sure, but in terms of praise and recognition? Its equal, because Soresu is not an underperforming style in comparison to Juyo, or any other form.
Zoltan's entire argument was power scaling. That was my entire ****ing point. Welcome to the party.
Edit: Oh and there are actually a lot of quotes putting Juyo above the other forms.
Originally posted by Selenial
Taking out force augmentation is clinically retarded. How do you compare Ataru and Soresu duelists then? Ataru duelists entirely rely on force augmentation for their speed, compare them without it and you have absolutely no measuring sticks whatsoever. How about Djem So? With no force augmentation, none of Anakin's feats mean diddly squat, because he cannot accomplish them without his Force Valor. You can't compare Kenobi and Skywalker as duelists then, simply because you don't have any capable methods of doing it.What's more, technical skill is ****ing irrelevant in every debate ever. Dueling ability with force augmentation isn't.
That's pretty rich coming from someone who participated in the making of 3 such a list 🙄
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Shii-Cho is a perfect counter to Grievous how? Regardless your mixing continuities here, Grievous is not as lethal in Canon as he is in Legends so we can't assume Kit Fisto would so easily defeat Legends Grievous when Windu failed, who believed even Yoda wasn't up it.
Eh Beni, TCW is also apart of Legends too...soo..