Originally posted by AncientPower
Retarded my ass, she had no experience with the forms that the Masters used and yet she was mastering them mid-combat to a degree that she could surpass their own knowledge and kill them with it. That is the extent to which she can mirror an opponent.
That's quite a leap. She mirrored their forms, yes. She beat them with their own forms, yes. That does not mean she surpassed their own knowledge, an argument that frankly makes no sense if you actually put it into context. I do not deny that she can learn and utilize styles mid combat, I've argued that many times before, but she certainly doesn't become better at the styles than the people who used them. In all likelihood, she beat them through superior physicality and adaptability, combined with her battle and Echani precognition, and literally every other advantage she had over them.
Here she won't be suddenly becoming some Godlike Soresu practitioner, able to beat Kenobi with his own form. At best she'll close the gap someway in that form, and have to use her vast advantages in every other form to try and take a win. You still have to argue her physical and force edge, she doesn't surpass her opponent's knowledge in anything. That makes less than no sense.
Hasn't she already mastered Soresu? With the Masters, she learned the form mid-combat to an apparantly fairly high degree. If she's already at a decent level with Soresu, she'd have less to acquire so if she's able to learn a similar amount as she did with the Masters, theoretically she could reach near Kenobi's level.
Originally posted by cs_zoltanTbh.
Cool. And I'm not seeing how Caedus, Krayt, Cade, Ulic, Exar, or Maul is better than him.
Originally posted by AncientPowerThat numbered in the tens of thousands?
What Trays says is not infallible, she may only be referring to openly active Jedi of the order, not the many fence sitters.
Originally posted by NephthysCancer, in a word. 😬
Hasn't she already mastered Soresu? With the Masters, she learned the form mid-combat to an apparantly fairly high degree. If she's already at a decent level with Soresu, she'd have less to acquire so if she's able to learn a similar amount as she did with the Masters, theoretically she could reach near Kenobi's level.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Tbh.
The only people in that list definitively above Kenobi IMO are Krayt, Caedus and Kun. The rest can be argued as pretty much on Kenobi's level, hence why I don't agree with saying Kenobi's solidly above them.
Krayt being the one who ate Ventress/Maul level duelists for breakfast, Caedus and Kun I'm pretty sure you need no introduction to 😬
Not sure above Krayt, Caedus or Kun being above Kenobi tbh. Kenobi was a perfect master of Soresu at the height of lightsaber combat, considered the best, and has been compared and compares to the likes of Yoda, Windu, Anakin and Dooku. I would say he's only slightly beneath them, and almost certainly above everyone else you listed bar perhaps Maul, in terms of sheer saber mastery.
The adapting argument is rather dumb, otherwise Nord would be the greatest Hunter ever due to his nigh adapability while being hunted by other BHs and able to turn their own tactics against them and at a superior form.
The Rebel Troopers would be bar none the greatest fighting force in the galaxy, since they can macgyver *** out of their asses.
Originally posted by Nephthys
"Kreia took the name Darth Traya, and her followers called themselves the Sith after the long-lost species that had invaded the Republic a millennium before. They began a systemic purge of the galaxy, hunting down those who still held fast to the Jedi Code, killing them by the tens of thousands."- Revan
Another point towards Drew's stupidity.
How the heck can Kun be superior duelist to Obi-Wan, if he's already clearly inferior to Revan? Revan and Kun share the same style of hype, same style of accolades, very similar demonstrations of their skill, duels that share similar impressive circumstances... but Revan's are also just clearly better which is easy to judge based on the similarities.
Kun can't be above Obi-Wan if Revan isn't too; and both of them aren't above Obi-Wan tbh.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not sure above Krayt, Caedus or Kun being above Kenobi tbh. Kenobi was a perfect master of Soresu at the height of lightsaber combat, considered the best,
Cool. Kas'im was also called "perfect" in every form. Kas'im > Kenobi confirmed, that bumps him down to - what is it now - 12?
Oh, and who does that even place him above, as a Soresu wielder? Luminara Unduli and Coleman Trebor? Cool. If Dooku didn't exist, Shaak Ti would be the greatest Makashi user alive, Shaak > Maul now too? 🙂
and has been compared and compares to the likes of Yoda, Windu, Anakin and Dooku.
So has Shaak Ti. Doesn't mean they're all perfect parallels as duelists.
I would say he's only slightly beneath them, and almost certainly above everyone else you listed bar perhaps Maul, in terms of sheer saber mastery.
Slightly beneath them in terms of technical skill, perhaps. Technical skill is not the singular factor in how good of a duelist you are, though.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Kek. Kun was better than legendary duelist like Vodo. Kenobi was better than Shaak, Fisto, Plo, Agen, Saesee, Ventress, Grievous, Vos, Qui-Gon, Sora, Depa.Hmm, yeah Kun seems better.
orite.
more explored era means everyone's better.
i forgot.
an hero tiem. very apologies. much sorry.
Yeah that totally was the point.
Kun stompped one of the best lightsabe duelists ever. Kenobi is better than someone who is better than someone who is better than someone who was said to be one of the best ever.
Taking it even further Maul stomped one of the best ever before TPM. So what the **** ever did Kun do to make him better than Kenobi?
Originally posted by SelenialRight... because not only Mace Windu's opinion, but his recommendation based on that opinion, into a lethal situation that even he couldn't overcome, is of equal in value to PoD Bane's off-hand speculations when getting his shit pushed in. And the forms remained static over the gap between these claims. Context dear.
Cool. Kas'im was also called "perfect" in every form. Kas'im > Kenobi confirmed, that bumps him down to - what is it now - 12?Oh, and who does that even place him above, as a Soresu wielder? Luminara Unduli and Coleman Trebor? Cool. If Dooku didn't exist, Shaak Ti would be the greatest Makashi user alive, Shaak > Maul now too? 🙂
And because Kenobi doing better than Windu did against Grievous (and better than it's implied Yoda would), contending equally with Anakin in a marathon engagement, baffling Dooku is his saber mastery, and repeatedly stalemating Maul, doesn't absolutely put him on level with the greatest duelists of the other seven forms. Instead Soresu is just an underperforming style. Right?
Frankly I'm a little non-plussed as to why an appreciation of Kenobi's abilities is inciting such backlash. 😬
So has Shaak Ti. Doesn't mean they're all perfect parallels as duelists.She's been mentioned in the same sentence as Dooku, and that's it, that doesn't at all compare to Kenobi's praise and accomplishments.
Slightly beneath them in terms of technical skill, perhaps. Technical skill is not the singular factor in how good of a duelist you are, though.Well that's what I'm assessing here, and I think its what's relevant to this debate in regards to Surik interpreting and matching that skill, if we are going to include Force augmentative ability and what not Revan should be above a lot of people you listed.
Originally posted by SelenialI kind help but find this ironic considering your attempt to lowball Kenobi as the best Soresu master in the order the basis that we don't know much about its practitioners.
orite.more explored era means everyone's better.
i forgot.
an hero tiem. very apologies. much sorry.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Kun stompped one of the best lightsabe duelists ever. Kenobi is better than someone who is better than someone who is better than someone who was said to be one of the best ever.Taking it even further Maul stomped one of the best ever before TPM. So what the **** ever did Kun do to make him better than Kenobi?
> mfw can't figure out if someone's taking the piss out of their own argument or actually being serious.