But you can't also say that the jedi that boarded Revans ship fought their whole lives. The only war they probably fought in were the mandalorian wars, cause they don't really look old enough to have fought in the war of exar kun. And you say they may have fought against droids and shit whatsoever, but remember that they fought against thousands and thousands of droids and shit whatsoever.
A droid can not compare to a Mandelorian... A training simulation is nothing compared to the real thing. Fighting for your life teaches you to fight, fighting for your life against opponents who can defeat you. Opponents that are more then able to kill Jedi. The Mandelorians were far more powerful then any droid.
And maybe they only fought in the Mandelorian wars, but they also fought in the Jedi Civil War. Meaning they fought against Revan his forces for a year and a half. Thats 18 months of fighting against Dark Jedi. Seeing as they are apparantly great and powerful you can assume they have fought for the mayority of that time. They were powerful.
Now don't get me wrong, i really do think Sidious is powerful i really do. But he is not the fighter Revan is. He refused to fight while Revan was always one of the first to fight. He always wanted to fight. He faced the Jedi head on while Sidious let them kill themselves, brilliant yes. But not the ways of a fighter.
Maybe he isn't a straight up warrior, no. Sidious' powers come through deception and politics. His plan to frame the Jedi Knights worked out brilliantly and if he wouldn't have been so arrogant he would have seduced Luke and the Sith would have ruled forever.
But Revan does have the combat experience advantage
I'm sure that sparring with Maul(I know he did this several times.), fighting four Jedi Master, and Yoda didn't give him any experince. He also probably sparred with Dooku from time to time to improve both their skills.
Let me give you an example. I am a martial artist. I have a training partner who is 4 years more experinced than me. We spar with eachother and both learn a lot. He is definatly ten times better than me, but I can still teach him things. Same thing with Maul and Sidious and Dooku with Sidious. Although he was better than either of them, he could still learn a lot and I sure he would take up on that opportunity.
Exactly, you should know that Glentract.
When you fight with friends or during training you are more careful you hold back. Now how do you think you would fight if somebody attacked you on the streets? You may have learned a few things but not enough to beat somebody who has fought on the street his entire life...
Sorry dude, you may win tournaments you may win medals but if one guy there has always been fighting he will own you because he is not set to restrictions and limits. You always are in your fights. Thats the mayor difference, Revan fought to win. He fought to kill. Sidious to train how ever slightly...
Not to mention that Revan fought many different opponents. Sidious only fought a few... Giving Revan another edge.
I am pretty sure that Revan never killed four Jedi Masters at the same time. One of them, Mace Windu, being commonly thought to be better than Malak, and another, Agen Kolar, who was supposed to be one of the best Jedi with a lightsaber at that time. All of them had been fighting in the clone wars for two years(I'm not sure about Mace), and probably did some training on their own to get ready if they ever had to fight a Sith. Also, you can't say that these Jedi are no good against Sith because they weren't trained to fight them, or they "weren't fighting the real thing", because Plo Koon fought and killed Darth Rage. Plo Koon was able to do this because he, like man other Jedi, after the Sith returned began learning how to do some advanced fighting against other lightsaber wielders. They also knew some of the basics because of several years of sparing with other apprentices in the Jedi Temple. So we have four Jedi Masters. Each of them have some knowlege of how to fight lightsaber wielding Jedi properly. One uses a form that Sidious dosen't know the whole thing because Maul used form VII, Vapaad was an extension of form VII. Sidious also survived in a fight against Yoda some time later. Revan never did anything like this that I know of. And for all of the Sith that you fight in the game, none of them are nearly as powerful as the Jedi Masters that Sidious fought, and these weaker Sith that Revan fought, I am pretty sure that he never fought four at the same time. I have changed my mind from my other post and think that Sidious might be able to beat Revan. Revan simply never did anything like killing four of the strongest Jedi Masters at the Jedi Temple at that time.
I wish some people would realise that Revan actually found the Star Forge, yes the Star Forge. Sidious had to build his and it was destroyed by a farmboy. At least the Star Forge took the entire Republic fleet. Also, I wonder who has more knowledge of the force, Sidious who hid in the shadows of Coruscant for half his life or Revan, who 'found' the Star Forge, resisted its corruption and then did the same with Malachor IV. And we don't even know what he did after that.
And another, Mace Windu basically defeats Sidious. It's only Anakin's interventiob that changes that!
Gonna take your big post and edit in parenthesis because it's easier than writing my own post and looking up all the damn time.
I am pretty sure that Revan never killed four Jedi Masters at the same time. (It's better to say you don't know if he did or didn't. While it is doubtless that his machinations elminated or converted many Jedi and Council Members, we don't know for sure how many Masters he's fought. But absence of proof is not proof of absence.)
One of them, Mace Windu, being commonly thought to be better than Malak, (But is Mace better than Malak? You have all those stats... why don't you tell us? Although stats are strictly non-canon, it's about the only way we can compare the two since Malak's on-screen displays of fighting are minimal and he doesn't have a novel yet.)
and another, Agen Kolar, who was supposed to be one of the best Jedi with a lightsaber at that time.(In a time of few Jedi, many of whom died in the firefight at Geonosis, which is pathetic. Jedi of this time were SORELY lacking in lightsaber to lightsaber ability, and they couldn't even properly fight a war. Jedi and Sith of Revan's time fought Mandalorians, with Exar Kun fresh in their mind. They were better fighters and thus any Jedi or Sith Revan kills is worth almost two of the modern equivalent.)
All of them had been fighting in the clone wars for two years(I'm not sure about Mace-note, original poster's own notes, not mine)... (I'd like to note that the Clone Wars were not a war against deadly Mandalorians where whole planets were burned and glassed; also, in the years following, more Sith and Jedi clashed then perhaps even in Exar Kun's time. Thus, lightsaber combat took on a whole new meaning. Saying a post-Ruusan Jedi is on par with this is like saying a Renaissance swashbuckler can take a medieval weaponsmaster.)
, and probably did some training on their own to get ready if they ever had to fight a Sith. (Probably? That won't hold up in court)
Also, you can't say that these Jedi are no good against Sith because they weren't trained to fight them, or they "weren't fighting the real thing", because Plo Koon fought and killed Darth Rage. Plo Koon was able to do this because he, like man other Jedi, after the Sith returned began learning how to do some advanced fighting against other lightsaber wielders. (So a year or two of reinventing their styles is better than most of a lifetime spent learning saber to saber combat?)
They also knew some of the basics because of several years of sparing with other apprentices in the Jedi Temple. (The basics? I know the basics of combat, and I can't kill a swordmaster.)
So we have four Jedi Masters. (Jedi master in itself is not a grand title. It merely means that, with a few rare exceptions for cases of skill or contribution to the Jedi Order, all Jedi Masters have successfully trained one padawan to knighthood. That's it. It doesn't mean you're a saber god or even potent in the Force, although, to be true, Council members SHOULD be among the strongest of the Order. But let's face it, the post-Russan Order was weak and lax.)
Each of them have some knowlege of how to fight lightsaber wielding Jedi properly. (Keyword some)
One uses a form that Sidious dosen't know the whole thing because Maul used form VII, Vapaad was an extension of form VII. (But Sidious had the advantage in that no one thought he would be that deadly. Also, his form as of yet is undeclared. It might be a whole new style)
Sidious also survived in a fight against Yoda some time later. Revan never did anything like this that I know of. (Once again, absence of proof is not proof of absence. And I believe any ancient Sith lord could defeat Yoda, with the exception of maybe Malak and Sion)
And for all of the Sith that you fight in the game, none of them are nearly as powerful as the Jedi Masters that Sidious fought (You honeslty can't compare them on an even scale. One has game stats meant to make them weak in a game where YOU ARE REVAN, and the others are movie characters whose accomplishments are minimal at best.)
, and these weaker Sith that Revan fought, I am pretty sure that he never fought four at the same time. (You are pretty sure? You mean to say you haven't seen in instance where he has done so, so you've concluded he hasn't. Faulty logic.)
I have changed my mind from my other post and think that Sidious might be able to beat Revan. Revan simply never did anything like killing four of the strongest Jedi Masters at the Jedi Temple at that time. (No, just emptied the Council chamber down to five seats out of what? Twenty or thirty?)
Exactly. sid was beaten, only saved by Anakin.
1.Then, Revan learned from a whole bunch of masters while still a jedi. Then he discovered the knowledge of Malachor V, a whole academy of ancient sith knowledge. Later on he went to Korriban where he uncovered even more sith knowledge in the tombs. Then he finally discovered star forge, which required a whole lot of power to control.
Here we go, the forst point, Reavn had more knowledge of the Force cannot be denied. If u disagree, give me some good points, where Sidious could ammas more knowledge then Revan.
2. Expirience. He fought in the mandalorian wars, getting a great deal of expirience(and u cant tell me that he was not dueling, since in kotor, canderous says that Revan defeated the Mandalore himself, which wasnt a ship duel). He then fought a whole lot of jedi and sith, some deadly beasts, and 3 sith lords.(Pall, Malak and Bandon). he slaughtered the whole sith academy on korriban.
Who did Palpatine kill? A few jedi and thats it.
3. Power. Well, a lot of points are from the previous. Palpatine never killed as much jedi as Revan did, and he havent slaughtered a Sith academy, where were a lot of powerfull masters. Then, killing all of the ppl on the star forge, that is something palpatine could have never done.
Also, Kreia said, that looking at Revan, was the same as looking at the Force itself, yet none of the jedi council never felt anything like that towards Palpatine.
Now, give me some points that nullify those i stated be4, and i shall admit that revan isnt more powerfull
Quote Janus, quoting me.
What I said is not in parenthasies.
"One of them, Mace Windu, being commonly thought to be better than Malak, (But is Mace better than Malak? You have all those stats... why don't you tell us? Although stats are strictly non-canon, it's about the only way we can compare the two since Malak's on-screen displays of fighting are minimal and he doesn't have a novel yet.)"
Sorry Janus I must quote you from another thread.
"Mace is a bad ass -watch yo mouth-... I have to vote the 'Du."
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=332626&highlight=Mace+vs+Malak
"....Agen Kolar, who was supposed to be one of the best Jedi with a lightsaber at that time.(In a time of few Jedi, many of whom died in the firefight at Geonosis, which is pathetic...."
Sure it is pathetic. A whole 200 out of several thousand Jedi died at the battle of Geonosis. There are almost none left!
It also dosen't make any sense that the Sith keep getting weaker over time if they have to kill their master to graduate or whatever. I would think that their knowlege would increase over time and not the other way around. Do you mean to say that they can conquer the galaxy but not write down a technique to show to some other Sith fifty years later. Sorry Janus, but you keep contradicting yourself. On the thread I posted above Mace IS beating Malak. You even supported Mace there.
Also another Janus quote:
"(But Sidious had the advantage in that no one thought he would be that deadly. Also, his form as of yet is undeclared. It might be a whole new style)"
Or the make a a ton of sense that they were not expecting Sidious to be powerful because they only sent the four strongest Jedi at the Temple to arrest him. If they thought he was weak, that would be considered a waste of resources.
"Revan simply never did anything like killing four of the strongest Jedi Masters at the Jedi Temple at that time. (No, just emptied the Council chamber down to five seats out of what? Twenty or thirty?)"
Revan didn't personally empty the council chamber. It was his military forces and the Mandalorians that did that.
Revan killed what, three Sith Lords? Two of these Sith it turns out he had help from to other people to beat.
Sidious has done better lightsaber against lightsaber things.
Yoda also beat Revan in one of these threads. Yoda looses to Sidious in ep3.(he did fight a couple hundred clone troopers just before hand, but Janus, you even said that blasters are no match for a true Jedi. Also, you have shown nothing that is anymore than "probably"(which wouldn't hold up in court), that shows KOTOR-era Jedi are "about twice as powerful as post-Ruusan ones".
Sorry, but you keep saying unsupported facts. No proof that Revan is better.
Firs things, first... I did vote Windu in the battle against him and Malak, but for reasons other than I usually vote. I simply liked Mace better, and if I had gone on there spouting off about how an ancient Sith lord could spank the hell out of even Mace Windu I'd have half a dozen people down my throats. "Malak sux, I beat him with lvl 20 no pwrs lol" Notice I didn't really go out of my way to support Mace in any way, as is my usual. Also notice your own defense of Malak.... here...
Second, I don't recall the number of Jedi alive during the time of the start of the Clone Wars. As of this post, I don't know, but I fully intend to find out. I find it doubtful that thousands lived at this time. And notice I never said even a majority of the Jedi died at Geonosis, because I know that much. What I do know is that the majority of Form VI users died there.
Third point... Notice that the Council was afraid to approach even Malak with four or more Jedi masters, and if you try and argue that the four in that room (Aside from Mace) were even close to the same level as a Jedi of those times, you're insane. Kit Fisto, for one, while a capable fighter, was rather easily bested by Assajj Ventress (See The Cestus Deception). And from what everyone has to say about her, she's an insignificant flea. Tiin, from what I recall, isn't a saber god, as is the other person whose name and purpose in life eludes me. Really, the other Jedi Masters were a formality. Mace was the only one there who could hold his own, and even then Mace's experience in battle and warfare was a fraction of even the Exile's.
Fourth point, I concede. It was poorly worded to say he emptied the Council, since while he did in a sense, it was not through direct combat that I or you know of. Most likely the majority of those absent council members were killed in combat or worse, captured. There are numerous high level Sith who don't warrant much attention in Revan's ranks. I would be curious to see how many were old masters.
Fifth point, Revan really doesn't need help to destroy anything he faces in KOTOR, game mechanics aside, simply because of who he is. You have seen the force witch Kreia and Malak and Sion, all of whom could not contend with Revan. Revan was Dark Lord of the Sith over hundreds, thousands of Sith and fallen Jedi. He was undisputed leader in the ways of the ancient Sith, who believe in taking any chance they can to eliminate a weak leader, despite having leagues of competition. Sidious had the brainwashed Maul, the misled and easily cowed Dooku, and the whiny Anakin as his competition. I could see if he used Exar Kun's balls for cuffs and rode around on NJO Luke's back, but his competition was nonexistant.
Yoda beating Revan on one of these threads is chalked up to Yoda/movie favortism and those occassional people who are loath to accept that a video game EU character would be better than Yoda who does the ninja spider in AOTC. It's been said by even people who don't care for Revan that poll results aren't an indication of power but rather popularity and opinion, neither of which make Yoda or Mace better than their perspective enemies. I'm rather surprised Sidious is losing as of the time of this writing.
Here's some way of explaining to you again why a Jedi of Revan's time would have to be a better duellist, warrior, and adept than would one of post-Ruusan (Read: No Sith in sight anywhere, no lightsaber enemies to be had period.) timeperiod.
In medieval times, when fighting with a sword and armor was not a pastime but was a way of life, boys who would later grow up to be martial men would practice first against their peers, and then against real enemies in the field. I want you to imagine the amount of perfection in the swing of a soldier who has swung a broadsword since he was say, 8. Imagine every day of your life practising for easily 4 hours with that heavy blade... learning its weight, its touch... Teaching your body to accomodate it to suit your needs. Then take it into battle and fight for your life. Wouldn't you say this soldier has a level of understanding about the principles of using that blade that you could never understand? And imagine, his arms were probably twice as thick as yours, and he could swing that blade faster than you can swing a fly swatter, while on horseback, one on side and than the other.
Now imagine someone from roughly 1500s... or early 1600s... when the emphasis was off of melee combat thanks to the invention of the crossbow and now the budding of gunpowder. Swords existed, and rather light cuirasses and helmets can be found on soldiers of the day. But the skill, the talent needed is not anywhere near the level of that medieval warrior. There is no swordplay with a heavy weapon or rather, weapons for the majority of childhood and in to adult life. There is no extensive melee combat experience on par with the bloody, messy and chaotic battles of the earlier era. And thus the skill, while perhaps even ranging towards good, will never rival that of the old warrior.