Mace Windu vs. NJO Luke Skywalker

Ah come who cares about that little detail..

And what training?

IF you look at the movies he has not seen Yoda since the end of ESB, he has never recieved any more Jedi training. He moved to Tatooine with the rest to free Han. There may have been a small amount of time between Bespin and Tatooine but it couldn't have been to big. Still so what if he killed a few people, or whatever the hell he killed how will that make him more able to fight against Vader.

It wouldn't, it wouldn't heavily increase his connection to the force either. In order to become stronger you need to challenge yourself.

Well if this is by the end of ROTJ that you talking about, then he challenged himself a hell of a lot. Other wise, fighting hundred of people is still a big accomplishment. It was a challenge for him.

I am also going to quote Janus, "Absense of proof isn't proof of absense."

It never says anywhere that Obi-wan didn't come teach him between ESB and ROTJ.

Also, you said four years ins't that special for becoming a Jedi, well if it took Revan over a decade and I have never heard of anyone else doing it in even a close amount of time, then yes, it must be special.

That four years thing was a joke forget about it..

And if Obi trained Luke between ESB and ROTJ then could you please tell me why and when and why Luke is surprised to see him in ROTJ?

And sure that may have been a challenge for him but it doesn't put him near a normal Jedi or Mace. That kid that jumps in to kill a few troopers in front of Bail in ROTS is probably superior to Luke in skill in ESB and possibly ROTJ...

but we are not talking about ROTJ Luke here, so this discussion is kidna useless.

Luke IS a jedi in ROTJ, that's why it has that name, Lucas says so, Yoda says so, etc. He is a fully fledged Jedi knight and not some half trained farm boy like some say. He beat Vader because he was stronger, not because Vader didn't want to kill him. Again, Lucas says so, the books say so, and the movie says so. Heck let's compare their endurance. Look at how long Luke withstood that Force Lightning from Sidious. Not to mention how quickly he got up after it stopped. Mace is killed after a few seconds, though i admit he did just lose a hand, and Sidious was probably trying harder, Luke still had to be quite powerful to not lose consciousness or die from that much lightning. AOTC Anakin is down for a few minutes from a 5 second blast from one of Dooku's hands.

Luke is VERY powerful, definitely not at Mace's level as of ROTJ but still much better than most people here give him credit for. Since we are talking about NJO Luke who has been in a lot of combat since ROTJ, he would beat Mace imo. Luke defeated the Emperor in his younger clone body, and thousands of Yuuzhan Vong (or so I've heard). He is a Jedi master and well deserved, because he's one of the strongest (if not the strongest) Jedi in this time period.

Originally posted by Fishy

And what training?

You obviously did not do your homework, Fishy.

a)
The time he shared with Yoda on Dagobah might be a week to two weeks (depends on your suggestion how much time the Millenium Falcon needed from the asteroid field to Bespin).
Most of Lukes training in the time of Episode IV to VI happend between ESB and ROTJ. Which takes me to

b)
After ESB Luke returned to Obi-Wans hut on Tatooine. Obi-Wan left tons of stuff there to instruct Luke (a Journal to instruct Luke in the ways of the Jedi, details on lightsaber building and fighting). What do you think where Luke got his new lightsaber ? Where did he develop his fighting skills between ESB and ROTJ (and he did this...ROTJ Luke is far bette with a lightsaber than ESB Luke was) ? What takes me to point

c)
The construction of an own lightsaber is part of the trials to become a Jedi Knight. If you keep Yodas words from ROTJ in mind: He tells Luke that he would be a Jedi Knight when he is able to confront Vader. This is his last test and he managed to pass it. It is no matter if Vader wants to kill him or not in ROTJ. He is not able to defend against Luke's attacks and loses his hand.

So this would be from Padawan (start of the training on Dagobah) to Jedi Knight (end of ROTJ) in less than a year.

Of course ROTJ Luke would not stand a chance again RotS Mace. But NJO Luke would win against Mace easily.

I also just thought about how Vapaad is better when fighting the Darkside. That was one of the reasons Mace was so powerful against Sidious.(Other than the fact that Sidious sucked.) He wouldn't have this advantage against Luke.

Although slightly overbearing for a fairly new poster (don't mess around with Fishy so early), Nai Fohl, that was an excellent argument.

In OT, Luke had three lightsabers.

The first (blue), given to him by Kenobi in ANH, he threw into the gears of an Imperial Walker, which blew up the lightsaber and the Walker.

The second (blue) he lost, gripped in his severed hand on Bespin.

The third (green) was the last one of the OT. He used it against Vader, who commented on it, saying Luke's skills were "now complete."

This post might seem pointless. I just always liked keeping track of that stuff.

hey same here.

We're all of a similar breed on this forum, man!

lol

NJO Luke Skywalker

So this would be from Padawan (start of the training on Dagobah) to Jedi Knight (end of ROTJ) in less than a year.

Of course ROTJ Luke would not stand a chance again RotS Mace. But NJO Luke would win against Mace easily.

IF you know anything about fighting i would recommend you to watch the duel in Episode 6 between Vader and Luke again. Vader could have killed him on a dozen occasions. And building a weapon doesn't make you a skilled fighter, watching video's doesn't make you a skilled fighter. It might make you know more about fighting, but watching a dozen Bruce Lee movies doesn't make you Bruce Lee.

Originally posted by Darth L. Dipsit
Although slightly overbearing for a fairly new poster (don't mess around with Fishy so early), Nai Fohl, that was an excellent argument.

In OT, Luke had three lightsabers.

The first (blue), given to him by Kenobi in ANH, he threw into the gears of an Imperial Walker, which blew up the lightsaber and the Walker.

The second (blue) he lost, gripped in his severed hand on Bespin.

The third (green) was the last one of the OT. He used it against Vader, who commented on it, saying Luke's skills were "now complete."

This post might seem pointless. I just always liked keeping track of that stuff.

He had only two. The second one and the frist one wwere the same lightsaber.

Originally posted by Fishy
IF you know anything about fighting i would recommend you to watch the duel in Episode 6 between Vader and Luke again. Vader could have killed him on a dozen occasions.

What episode were you watching? Luke EASILY defeated Vader. The closes time Vader got to him was when he threw his lightsaber. And watch the first part of the fight closely. Luke never misses, and then knocks Vader on his ass. When Vader pissed him off, he traded dexterity for pure strength which is the opposite of what Obi did in TPM. It was still more than enough to whoop the old trash compactor.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
What episode were you watching? Luke EASILY defeated Vader. The closes time Vader got to him was when he threw his lightsaber. And watch the first part of the fight closely. Luke never misses, and then knocks Vader on his ass. When Vader pissed him off, he traded dexterity for pure strength which is the opposite of what Obi did in TPM. It was still more than enough to whoop the old trash compactor.

Oh come did you see how Luke was swinging with his weapon, Vader had experience he should have been able to easily block that attack but no he didn't.. He had to fall down an get his hand cut off... The guy wasn't trying

Originally posted by Fishy
IF you know anything about fighting i would recommend you to watch the duel in Episode 6 between Vader and Luke again. Vader could have killed him on a dozen occasions. And building a weapon doesn't make you a skilled fighter, watching video's doesn't make you a skilled fighter. It might make you know more about fighting, but watching a dozen Bruce Lee movies doesn't make you Bruce Lee.

Ok. I watched the duel now 3 times. Where do you think Vader could have killed Luke ? At the beginning of the duel, Vader is only defending against Luke without doing any attack.
Than Palpatine says something and Luke turns out his lightsaber, until Vader attacks him again. But I don't see where Vader could have killed him there.
I only saw two situations when Vader was in advantage. First when he throws his lightsaber at Luke because of the surprise and then when Luke gets angry.
When Luke is in rage he is only doing strikes without any control. Just trying to hit something. I agree that Vader as a trained swordfighter should have killed him there. When Luke starts his attack he is far out of range so Vader could have used force grip or force push against him or just use that uncontrolled strikes to cut Luke into pieces or cut his weaponhand off...but he did not.

And this takes me to the question why he did not do that. That he doesn't want to kill Luke is no logical explanation because a force pull to throw Luke back or a force grip or cutting of his weapon hand would not have killed Luke and would have made it far more easily to convince him to join the dark side because he could have seen that he has no chance against a Sith. Only explanation for me is that he was surprised because of the amount of hatred Luke showed.

I agree with you that building a weapon or watching some fighting movie doesn't make you a good fighter. Building a weapon and following lessons that a master of fighting has left for you to exercerzise with might work. And this is exactly what Luke did between ESB and ROTJ. Do you think ESB Luke would have been able to fight against 20 people with Blasters and meleeweapons (including Boba Fett) as he does in the beginning of ROTJ and survive ? No way. So there is an increase in fighting skills between ESB and ROTJ.

And well...I don't want to say that ROTJ Luke would have a chance against one of the "old" Jedi because they would be lightyears ahead in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. But obviously he was strong enough to keep "normal" people busy.

Okay so he could have learned there, but it couldn't have been much... Because of the time in between the movies and how hard it is to train like that.

Now on that thing you said, its not that Luke pushes Vader on the defense, its that Vader is on the defensive that makes me think he isn't trying. Luke although skilled in the force is no where near Vader in lightsaber skills or force power. Where Vader would have just walked up to that ship and blown the entire thing up Luke had to work.

Now seriously Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke yes he could have defeated him without killing him but would that have done? Get Palpatine to kill him because Luke wasn't worthy... Luke his skill in that fight although he attacks is worthless. Lets look at it like this

A normal guy can attack a skilled fighter with a sword the skilled fighter should be able to kill him but if he doesn't want to he still has to block and avoid, however would his opinion change and would he want the other to die he should be able to do it.

Luke his fighting method isn't all that good. He just swings... So ROTJ Luke is not a fighter, he understands what Jedi are about and he is a Jedi in that sense of the word, but is he a fighter? No. Would he have defeated Vader if he was not his son? No. Could Vader have killed him? Yes. Did Vader want to kill him? No.

Fishy is so arrogant!...😆

Why do you think the Emperor wanted Luke as an apprentice? It wasn't because he was weak in the Force, he wanted Luke to take Vader's place at his side.(Duh! Think!) If the Emperor didn't think Luke was not powerful, he would not have went into all that trouble to get him.

Originally posted by Fishy
Okay so he could have learned there, but it couldn't have been much... Because of the time in between the movies and how hard it is to train like that.

Well it is several months. He also WAS trained by Ben's Force Ghost for the entire time between ANH and ROTJ. And I have personal experince in self-training with swords becuase the wasn't a school where I used to live, but I can take on most people who have been training for years with an experinced teacher.