Dark Phoenix vs Scarlet Witch

Ok, look, ignore the statement from marvel.com, it's irrelevant now.

This statement:

The above classification system was devised (at least in part) by Mark Gruenwald. However, it does seem to be missing one element. We have coined the term Megaverse to include realms associated with a particular line of comics, etc., but outside of the Multiverse. This would include such realms as the New Universe, Earth-Shadowline, etc. These realms lack the cosmic beings of the mainstream Multiverse, yet they are still more closely tied to other Marvel Universes than those of other comic lines (such as DC). Thus they are included within the Marvel Megaverse.
Mega - "big" (used to imply a larger grouping than the Multiverse).

Particular this part:

Mega - "big" (used to imply a larger grouping than the Multiverse).

Is from marvunapp.

I don't see where the misunderstanding it.

Originally posted by Mindset
The statement I posted is from the site... 😬

"Mega - "big" (used to imply a larger grouping than the Multiverse)."

Yes and you still dont get it.

Megaverse accounts for the properties outside of the multiverse. Therefore it refers to realities beyond that which the term multiverse covers. Thats not to say that the megaverses themselves are bigger. However the term megaverse takes into consideration areas beyond the borders of the multiverse.

Universes like the new universe and shadow line. They are both examples of realities covered by the term.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yes and you still dont get it.

Megaverse accounts for the properties outside of the multiverse. Therefore it refers to realities beyond that which the term multiverse covers. Thats not to say that the megaverses themselves are bigger. However the term megaverse takes into consideration areas beyond the borders of the multiverse.

Universes like the new universe and shadow line. They are both examples of realities covered by the term.

Originally posted by Mindset
Ok, so it's not necessarily larger than a multiverse, but it's larger than a universe.

The megaverse is just a term used to refer to the the marvel properties that exist beyond the borders of the multiverse. It covers a bigger area than the multiverse, hence why they called it a bigger grouping. However the realms and the universe contained within this megaverse group arent necessarily bigger than realities found in the multiverse. Thats the only issue i had.

So the New Universe and Shadowline and possibly Malibus realities since the acqusition by Marvel. They'd all come under the megaverse term.

I'm gonna kill you, GS.

Originally posted by Mindset
I'm gonna kill you, GS.

😄

The megaverse realities arent necessarily bigger than the multiverse realities. The megaverse just accounts for marvel properties out of the multiverse. Simple. Hows that? 😂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Feats wise she trumps both of them.

LT's biggest feats are erecting an impenetrable barrier around a universe. Some people say disabling the IG but it is an inanimate object, he never faced down an IG wielder.

LT's top in terms of how he's regarded and through statements by other characters. Feats wise hes bettered by many.

This might be true. Also Thanos with THOTI regarded him as the most powerful. Having in mind Protege was even more powerful than LT, yes even if for a short amount of time, Protege was the top dog.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Protege is an unknown. He allegedly duplicate TOAA's power as claimed by himself but did nothing to prove this and furthermore got taken out by a Celestial, beings who throughout continuity are individually at least less than the greatest abstracts. People should be looking at Proteges defeat by a Celestial as a demotion as opposed to quite illogically seeing the situation as reason to amp this Celestial to omnipotent proportions based solely on Proteges unproven claims.

Actually it's more reasonable and logical that Scathan was in this case especially empowered to stop the maniac (especially when in BIO it's said that then Scathan saved all realities. If he would be degraded, then others could stop him, but they couldn't, that's why when Protege was on his way to finish them, Scathan came and stoped him, hence confirmed Scathan saved all realites. So based on that, it's logical and it sounds he had the power or role for this occasion).

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Just to summarize, LT is top in role and regard from other characters, feats wise he leaves a lot to be desired. 😬

Duplicated LT power. He was just immature and saying he would replace and became the new TOAA.
LT not actually held two brothers, but two megaverses in his hands (which may only be a universe size (we don't know acutally, but let's take it as a size of the universe), but still he also held two brothers within easily (again mentioning LT omnipotence), maybe not saying much, but not less than WPOTC helding the universe and manipulating it, and I am saying this, because LT could actually replace 616 Universe with the Ultimate universe and no one could stop him, if he wouldn't change his mind. He would simply replace it and that is far more than what WPOTC did. Maybe not a feat, but we know he would be capable of it).

How can Phoenix trumps them both, when Protege actually took on the most powerful beings in MU including LT (the top dog in MU) and it was actually shown they together weren't match for him, if not for Scathan (LT also confirming it). Maybe he didn't finish the feat, but still was more powerful than them combined.
When PF will be shown capable of going toe to toe against such powerhouses combined, then let's talk.

Honestly, I think someone like LT or Protege would make a joke out of PF or embaress it.

And in such cases as with Protege, feats don't even matter so much or actually finishing the feat, when we know what was actually happening and who was actually in the game.

And I also think that you know or consider LT being more powerful than the Phoenix.

Originally posted by Xplosive
This might be true. Also Thanos with THOTI regarded him as the most powerful. Having in mind Protege was even more powerful than LT, yes even if for a short amount of time, Protege was the top dog.

Actually it's more reasonable and logical that Scathan was in this case especially empowered to stop the maniac (especially when in BIO it's said that then Scathan saved all realities. If he would be degraded, then others could stop him, but they couldn't, that's why when Protege was on his way to finish them, Scathan came and stoped him, hence confirmed Scathan saved all realites. So based on that, it's logical and it sounds he had the power or role for this occasion).

Duplicated LT power. He was just immature and saying he would replace and became the new TOAA.
LT not actually held two brothers, but two megaverses in his hands (which may only be a universe size (we don't know acutally, but let's take it as a size of the universe), but still he also held two brothers within easily (again mentioning LT omnipotence), maybe not saying much, but not less than WPOTC helding the universe and manipulating it, and I am saying this, because LT could actually replace 616 Universe with the Ultimate universe and no one could stop him, if he wouldn't change his mind. He would simply replace it and that is far more than what WPOTC did. Maybe not a feat, but we know he would be capable of it).

How can Phoenix trumps them both, when Protege actually took on the most powerful beings in MU including LT (the top dog in MU) and it was actually shown they together weren't match for him, if not for Scathan (LT also confirming it). Maybe he didn't finish the feat, but still was more powerful than them combined.
When PF will be shown capable of going toe to toe against such powerhouses combined, then let's talk.

Honestly, I think someone like LT or Protege would make a joke out of PF or embaress it.

Dont need to tackle this statement for statement so i'll respond with a few brief points.

Proteges claims were conclusively unproven. He did nothing on panel to back up the claims that he had TOAA or LT's power, he merely took on an LT like physical form and thats that. Until you can show me an on panel display of this power then its inconclusive.

Celestials in continuity are below the most powerful of the abstracts. The fact that Scathan took out Protege speaks for how over hyped Protege was and does not hype Scathan up to omnipotence given that Proteges claims were unproven. Present a display of Protege with TOAA or LT's power as opposed to just having a similar three headed form or drop the point.

As for the Brothers, please keep up with current continuity. The brothers were retconned from being embodiments of their respective multiverses DC and Marvel beyond LT to just being powerful beings who could craft realities. They were not the embodiments of realities therefore LT holding them in his hand does not equate to him holding megaverses in his hand. Furthermore its not just the act of Jean holding the 616 reality in her hand that made the feat special, it was the fact that she had total control of all of its matter down to the atomic level, materialized and then held it in her hand.

Show the proof, or drop the point. You can continue to believe what you wish, however unless you have the relevant comic scans, dont present it here as fact.

Originally posted by Xplosive
And in such cases as with Protege, feats don't even matter so much or actually finishing the feat, when we know what was actually happening and who was actually in the game.

And I also think that you know or consider LT being more powerful than the Phoenix.

Youre seeing what you want to see and then go on a rant. Not once in this thread have i said that the Phoenix Force is more powerful than LT. What i said was that whilst LT is regarded as top quite clearly amongst the cosmics and has the top status, his feats aren't as good as Phoenixes and many others which is true.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As for the Brothers, please keep up with current continuity. The brothers were retconned from being embodiments of their respective multiverses DC and Marvel beyond LT to just being powerful beings who could craft realities. They were not the embodiments of realities therefore LT holding them in his hand does not equate to him holding megaverses in his hand.

That is why I said holding two brothers is not saying much,...

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Furthermore its not just the act of Jean holding the 616 reality in her hand that made the feat special, it was the fact that she had total control of all of its matter down to the atomic level, materialized and then held it in her hand.

...but what I applied more was LT replacing the 616 Universe with the Ultimate universe:

Originally posted by Xplosive
but not less than WPOTC helding the universe and manipulating it, and I am saying this, because LT could actually replace 616 Universe with the Ultimate universe and no one could stop him, if he wouldn't change his mind. He would simply replace it and that is far more than what WPOTC did. Maybe not a feat, but we know he would be capable of it.

LT wins.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont need to tackle this statement for statement so i'll respond with a few brief points.

Proteges claims were conclusively unproven. He did nothing on panel to back up the claims that he had TOAA or LT's power, he merely took on an LT like physical form and thats that. Until you can show me an on panel display of this power then its inconclusive.

Celestials in continuity are below the most powerful of the abstracts. The fact that Scathan took out Protege speaks for how over hyped Protege was and does not hype Scathan up to omnipotence given that Proteges claims were unproven. Present a display of Protege with TOAA or LT's power as opposed to just having a similar three headed form or drop the point.

Show the proof, or drop the point. You can continue to believe what you wish, however unless you have the relevant comic scans, dont present it here as fact.

Living Tribunal: ''any and all realities rest on Protégé's shoulders.''.
Not to mention LT wasn't alone, but in company of other powerhouses.

Sorry, GS, but you are simply wrong and you know it. Plain and simple.

Protege, one of the most powerful beings ever in comics. KADOOM

Originally posted by Xplosive
That is why I said holding two brothers is not saying much,...

...but what I applied more was LT replacing the 616 Universe with the Ultimate universe:

LT wins.

[b]Living Tribunal: ''any and all realities rest on Protégé's shoulders.''.
Not to mention LT wasn't alone, but in company of other powerhouses.

Sorry, GS, but you are simply wrong and you know it. Plain and simple.

Protege, one of the most powerful beings ever in comics. KADOOM [/B]

LT could just replace 616 with the Ultimate Universe. Whats the basis for this fantasy? Dont make up feats based on characters high regard for LT. That doesnt cut it here, provide a similar feat for him or drop the point.

The Brothers were retconned to just powerful beings, so as aforementioned holding them is not equivalent to holding a universe.

Protege claimed to have duplicated TOAA's power and yet looked like LT and then got owned by a Celestial. Provide a feat for Protege that verifies his claim or drop the point. Its inconclusive and the scene is riddled with contradictions. An extremely weak case.

Provide the necessary feats or drop the point. No more talk. 😬

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What i said was that whilst LT is regarded as top quite clearly amongst the cosmics and has the top status,

Even this means nothing without feats. Just to use a real world example. The President of the United States is considered the most powerful man in the country. Brock Lesnar is merely a sports figure. If they fought, who would win?

See my point? One has more authority, the PotUS (the LT), one is more powerful, Brock Lesnar (the PF).

But LT authority is derived from infinite power the presidents power is derived from authority granted by the country/people. You're not even comparing apples to oranges more like water to a rock.

@Uriel005

Who says he has "infinite power"? Need I remind you, the only reason the Infinity Gems stopped working in unison, was because Adam Warlock submitted willingly to the Tribunal's judgment.

Seems to me he doesn't have infinite power, just that the other powers and principalities are willing to subject themselves to his orders.

If you doubt, see the whole What If : Korvac fiasco. Keep in mind there is only one LT throughout the multiverse.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
LT could just replace 616 with the Ultimate Universe. Whats the basis for this fantasy? Dont make up feats based on characters high regard for LT. That doesnt cut it here, provide a similar feat for him or drop the point.

The Brothers were retconned to just powerful beings, so as aforementioned holding them is not equivalent to holding a universe.

Protege claimed to have duplicated TOAA's power and yet looked like LT and then got owned by a Celestial. Provide a feat for Protege that verifies his claim or drop the point. Its inconclusive and the scene is riddled with contradictions. An extremely weak case.

Provide the necessary feats or drop the point. No more talk. 😬

No no. No more talk from you and your useless feats. LT, not to mention Protege, compared to them Phoenix is really nothing more but a small fire bird.

Living Tribunal could replace 616 Universe with the Ultimate universe. It's not a fantasy,... why not?..., because I said he didn't finish the feat, he was talked out of it. The point is that you know he could do it easily and was on a way and that would make WPOTC feat weak compared to it (that is why all you can say ''It wasn't a feat'', which is very weak).

Originally posted by zopzop
See my point? One has more authority, the PotUS (the LT), one is more powerful, Brock Lesnar (the PF).

Do you even realize how bad example you gave? No, really,do you realize?

Living Tribunal, top of the food chain. Thanos when omnipotent regarded Living Tribunal as the highest power in MU.

Originally posted by zopzop
If you doubt, see the whole What If : Korvac fiasco. Keep in mind there is only one LT throughout the multiverse.

Yes and that's why he is virtually omniscient.

About Korvac. LT never used his power to finish Korvac. Korvac only survived supernova. Only why Korvac lived was because LT didn't want to kill him. He had different plan.

The only one to have infinite power is TOAA, no one else. LT is not completely omnipotent.

And two of the biggest power ever in Marvel Universe, Protege and THOTI, where was the mighty Phoenix ?

Writers probably don't even remember on it, when such powerhouses are in the game.

Originally posted by zopzop
@Uriel005

Who says he has "infinite power"? Need I remind you, the only reason the Infinity Gems stopped working in unison, was because Adam Warlock submitted willingly to the Tribunal's judgment.

Seems to me he doesn't have infinite power, just that the other powers and principalities are willing to subject themselves to his orders.

If you doubt, see the whole What If : Korvac fiasco. Keep in mind there is only one LT throughout the multiverse.

Originally posted by Xplosive
No no. No more talk from you and your useless feats. LT, not to mention Protege, compared to them Phoenix is really nothing more but a small fire bird.

Living Tribunal could replace 616 Universe with the Ultimate universe. It's not a fantasy,... why not?..., because I said he didn't finish the feat, he was talked out of it. The point is that you know he could do it easily and was on a way and that would make WPOTC feat weak compared to it (that is why all you can say ''It wasn't a feat'', which is very weak).

Do you even realize how bad example you gave? No, really,do you realize?

[b]Living Tribunal, top of the food chain. Thanos when omnipotent regarded Living Tribunal as the highest power in MU.

Yes and that's why he is virtually omniscient. [/B]

What have you actually shown? NOTHING. Talk of replacing 616 with the Ultimate Universe. TALK. Its a feat that never happened, it was just threatened, therefore mentioning it is irrelevant. Why? Because you dont know HOW he would have achieved the feat if he actually did it.

Try again.

Originally posted by Xplosive
About Korvac. LT never used his power to finish Korvac. Korvac only survived supernova. Only why Korvac lived was because LT didn't want to kill him. He had different plan.

The only one to have infinite power is TOAA, no one else. LT is not completely omnipotent.

And two of the biggest power ever in Marvel Universe, Protege and THOTI, where was the mighty Phoenix ?

Writers probably don't even remember on it, when such powerhouses are in the game.

At the end of the day, all i said is despite the great status of LT and how he is held in the highest regard by most cosmics, he does not have the feats to match up to his status. Thats all i said. If you were being credible and objective you would admit that. Not once did i say the Phoenix Force was more powerful, i said that it had much greater feats which is true.

LT's self claimed "ultimate punishment" when dealing with Korvac was to cause a sun to go supernova in Korvacs near vicinity. When this "ultimate punishment" failed LT fled saying the universe was lost and sealed it in an impenetrable force field.

Some almighty power.

Aside from that hes stopped an inanimate object from working. Not a manned IG with a wielder resisting, an IG after the wielder submitted admitting that their battle would destroy the universe which neither of them wanted.

What else has LT done?

Once again, im not saying the Phoenix Force is more powerful, im just saying that in terms of on panel feats its far more impressive. Its as simple as that.

Containing the power of the multiverse devouring M'kraan crystal on panel TWICE

Connecting all realities of the omniverse to Otherworld

Empowering one of its MANY hosts to destroy not just a universe but an entire timeline with a gesture

Empowering this same host to manipulate all of the atoms of 616 to materialize it in her palm and then alter events in the reality to regrow a more desirable timeline

The power behind the Big Bang, energy source of reality and the the event that gives the abstracts meaning.

VS

Causing a sun to go supernova

Sealing a reality in a forcefield

Theres no comparison.

LT is held in the highest regard and no doubt has top authority, however his feats of power are behind the Phoenix Force, the M'kraan crystal, HOTI and even the IG's. Not to mention a wealth of DC characters.

Originally posted by 753
There is no power greater than his own among the other abstratcs. Why would anyone doubt this?

Because theres a difference between authority/status and power.

Dont get me wrong, im not saying LT isnt top in all respects, im just saying that if hes also top in power as suggested, then it hasnt been verified conclusively on panel. Only hinted at by the reverence the abstracts hold him in.

Hes the top dog and highest authority beneath the supreme being and yet he lacks feats. That cant be successfully argued against its 100% true.