Dark Phoenix vs Scarlet Witch

Originally posted by zopzop
This proves nothing really. Where was Oblivion/Death/Infinity/Anomaly (I mean this guy was immune to the Infinity Gauntlet)/Inbetweener( he's immune to the Infinity Gems)/Vishanti etc... in cases like the Protege or the Infinity Gauntlet affair?

Where were the Infinites during the THOTI fiasco? They dwarfed Eternity in size and power.

Why the hell was "Hawk God" and the Beyonder (who's half a Cosmic Cube) involved in the Protege business? Why did the Living Tribunal need to draw power from The Eye of Agamotto to banish the Protege (I mean the Vishanti are nobodies right since they were never involved in any "cosmic" encounter)?

I never say it proves anything, I only said I want to see PF when such powers are involved. I know the PF would be useless as others were, but it would be kool to see it among them facing such powers directly.

And IG can't compare to Protege, not to mention THOTI.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Wandas warp was global however in creating House of M on Earth she changed events in history and affected people who have interacted with intergalactic races and beings therefore her alteration had a knock on effect of indirectly affecting reality on a universal scale, despite only directly warping Earth.

Thats why you get references to the scale of the warp being global numerous times as well as references to her affecting the whole universe:

"global alteration"

Down with the Wanda hype. 🙂

Originally posted by Xplosive
They were only M bodies. If it was totatlity, IG would have nothing on it.

By totality what do you mean?

For LT, I said, maybe he was holding both universes in his bare hands and would simply replace them or was just shown what he wanted to do (a visualization). It's what GS said, M bodies.
Anyway, if he wanted to replace them, like he had in mind, he would have done it. No doubt about it. I think he would just simply replace them. The point is that all in all, it was hinted he would replace them himself and the point is they hinted he was capable of it (we just don't know how).

The guy holds architects/creators of universes in his hands. It's not farfetch for you or I to say he's can't replace universes.

But from that She-Hulk book, it sounds more like he's going to replace the 616 with the ultimate universe as the main universe from which Marvel books are published. Hence, why She-Hulk argues that the 616 actually has character and is more fun than the Ultimate universe. Which is true that the 616 is much more fun for Marvelite's with it's number of heroes and established history than the Ultimates books. But should anyone by surprise that She-Hulk is breaking the 4th wall?

Also, Magus with 5 cosmic cube created a duplicate universe and began merging the two universe and increased it's rate after attaining an incomplete Gauntlet (and losing the 5 CC at the same time).

Infinity War 5. The 5 CC merging the two universes. This is before the LT ruled the Gauntlet could work again.

Sleep Walker seeing the effects of the merge with his own eyes.

Thor and Watcher feeling the effects.

Merging universes is within the power of the CC and IG. And neither is comparable to LT who holds two creators of universes in his hand.

I don't even want to debate about if LT is above IG. It's clear he is. The problem sometimes here on KMC is that ''If not for a feat, no proof and it doesn't matter what you tell'', especially when considering LT, when he is regarded by Marvel as the top tog only second to TOAA.
I know you said that you are not arguing that LT might be the top dog, but then you also saying that LT may no be above IG at all based on that and that. I see it as pointless.
If LT literally wouldn't be above IG, then no matter what PF has done, he would be regadred automatically by Marvel below IG. Simple as that. Feats wouldn't matter.

And wasn't there a time when LT actually again just said and IG was again powered up, working again?

Of course it's clear. Why are you bothering to debate anyone on that? Eternity asked Tribunal to intervene at the start of the IG and he refused on a technicality. After Eternity brings it up a second time with Warlock's sanity being the charge, LT snapped his fingers and stopped an attack that floored everyone.

Lol at the argument that one Celestial looks like it's withstanding the attack and therefore it minimizes the Tribunal's feat in some way. That is Ziran the Tester, not even the most powerful of Celestials. Ziran got stomped by along the TOAA Celestial so the fact he was on his feet for one panel is a blessing to him by the artist. Reverse the question and ask what power does the Infinity Gauntlet hold over the Tribunal when it was stomping the abstracts half a dozen times throughout the series? Then add to the fact the Gems couldn't even work together when formed because of his ruling. The only power to defeat the Tribunal was the HOTU which Thanos points out is more powerful than the previous powers he held: the Cosmic Cube and Infinity Gauntlet. And like you said Xplosive, he called LT top dog after holding Eternity in his hand.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
By totality what do you mean?

I meant in its whole, not only a visualization, did he acutally mean his totatlity, Multi-Eternity. Multi-Eternity is whole.

Or am I wrong?

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The guy holds architects/creators of universes in his hands. It's not farfetch for you or I to say he's can't replace universes.

But from that She-Hulk book, it sounds more like he's going to replace the 616 with the ultimate universe as the main universe from which Marvel books are published. Hence, why She-Hulk argues that the 616 actually has character and is more fun than the Ultimate universe. Which is true that the 616 is much more fun for Marvelite's with it's number of heroes and established history than the Ultimates books. But should anyone by surprise that She-Hulk is breaking the 4th wall?

Also, Magus with 5 cosmic cube created a duplicate universe and began merging the two universe and increased it's rate after attaining an incomplete Gauntlet (and losing the 5 CC at the same time).

Infinity War 5. The 5 CC merging the two universes. This is before the LT ruled the Gauntlet could work again.

Sleep Walker seeing the effects of the merge with his own eyes.

Thor and Watcher feeling the effects.

Merging universes is within the power of the CC and IG. And neither is comparable to LT who holds two creators of universes in his hand.

Yes, I think he would just simply replace them extremely easily (616 with UU).
About a Megaverse, it says somewhere it's a universe outside of mainstream Multiverse, so it might be only size of a universe, but here it says it's actually more than a single Multiverse. It that is the case, this tops any PF feat. Not that it needs to top any PF feat, when we know LT is simply above it.
Like abstracts, PF is also subject to the LT authority.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Of course it's clear. Why are you bothering to debate anyone on that? Eternity asked Tribunal to intervene at the start of the IG and he refused on a technicality. After Eternity brings it up a second time with Warlock's sanity being the charge, LT snapped his fingers and stopped an attack that floored everyone.

I don't want to debate it, because it's clear. That's why I said it's pointless. ''LT didn't do that and that'', no, LT is above IG and the end.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Lol at the argument that one Celestial looks like it's withstanding the attack and therefore it minimizes the Tribunal's feat in some way. That is Ziran the Tester, not even the most powerful of Celestials. Ziran got stomped by along the TOAA Celestial so the fact he was on his feet for one panel is a blessing to him by the artist. Reverse the question and ask what power does the Infinity Gauntlet hold over the Tribunal when it was stomping the abstracts half a dozen times throughout the series? Then add to the fact the Gems couldn't even work together when formed because of his ruling. The only power to defeat the Tribunal was the HOTU which Thanos points out is more powerful than the previous powers he held: the Cosmic Cube and Infinity Gauntlet. And like you said Xplosive, he called LT top dog after holding Eternity in his hand.

I agree. And IG acutally did destroy someone on panel, torn apart, I think it was Chaos or someone else?. But that doesn't matter.

Like with Protege, it's nothing to debate. It was clear LT himself said that ALL realities now depends on Protege what he wanted to do, LT knew he wasn't able to stop him, that is why it was confirmed Scathan saved all realities.

Then you have, ''Protege didn't show that and that etc...'', no, it was clear what LT said and it isn't even for a debate. PIS or not, it happened and Protege was the real deal and one of the most powerful beings ever in MU and one of rare who topped LT (LT knew that himself).
And we only saw Scathan once, so we don't know what authority he has/had (so we can't use ''He is a Celestial, who is below abstracts'', well here this wasn't the case) or what job he had, but it was clear LT wouldn't be able stop Protege, if not for Scathan.

And only one to actually defeat him was THOTI.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I meant in its whole, not only a visualization, did he acutally mean his totatlity, Multi-Eternity. Multi-Eternity is whole.

Or am I wrong?

If he's referring to his Multiverse version, he might be telling the truth. But if he's just referring to the 616 universe, he's likely lying and trying to downplay Warlock's attack. Seeing as power lesser than the Gauntlet created a duplicate 616 universe and was merging the two.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Seeing as power lesser than the Gauntlet created a duplicate 616 universe and was merging the two.

I completely forgot about this, merging universes. Playing with 616 Universe isn't even that much as I see.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I completely forgot about this, merging universes. Playing with 616 Universe isn't even that much as I see.

Youre missing the bigger picture.

Cosmic cubes take hours to merge two universes, the IG takes minutes, within a few seconds just ONE of the MANY hosts that the Phoenix Force empowers was able to materialize the 616 universe in the palm of her hand without a hint of strain. Just a few seconds concentration and she had total atomic control over it.

Furthermore within the space of a few seconds Jean telekinetically wiped out a timeline. Not a universe which is just reality at one specific point in time, but she telekinetically wiped out 150 years of timeline in seconds. The difference in matter and energy between a universe and 150 years of timeline or even several universes at a specific state in time and 150 years of a timeline is phenomenal. Jean Grey did it in seconds, what does that say for the Phoenix Force who was simultaneously empowering the Phoenix Corps, is the multiversal nexus of psionic power and the power source behind Big Bangs?

There is no comparison whatsoever.

The IG's feats pale into insignificance and so does LT's. For all his alleged power he has done nothing of note except surround a universe in a forcefield.

Holding visualizations of Eternity does not cut it.

Holding the two brothers that he created JOINTLY with Spectre is not enough.

LT is the top authority in Marvel, but he lacks the feats to match that status.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Lol at the argument that one Celestial looks like it's withstanding the attack and therefore it minimizes the Tribunal's feat in some way. That is Ziran the Tester, not even the most powerful of Celestials. Ziran got stomped by along the TOAA Celestial so the fact he was on his feet for one panel is a blessing to him by the artist.

The fact that he was still on his feet while the others were thrown around was something the writer and artist wanted to portray so take it up with them. The Celestial stood his ground while Galactus and others were tossed about like leaves in the wind.

Then add to the fact the Gems couldn't even work together when formed because of his ruling. The only power to defeat the Tribunal was the HOTU which Thanos points out is more powerful than the previous powers he held: the Cosmic Cube and Infinity Gauntlet. And like you said Xplosive, he called LT top dog after holding Eternity in his hand.

The Tribunal ran with his tail between his legs vs Korvac. His highest on panel showing of power was making a star go nova.

The gems only stopped functioning when Warlock submitted to the LT's judgment. Otherwise why the big showdown, if the LT could just turn them off on a whim?

Originally posted by zopzop

The gems only stopped functioning when Warlock submitted to the LT's judgment. Otherwise why the big showdown, if the LT could just turn them off on a whim?

Precisely. 👆

LT had already decided that Adam was in the wrong and had made his judgement that he should give up the Infinity Gauntlet.

Why go through the rigmarole of talking Adam out of a battle and highlighting the consequences, if he could simply snap his fingers and render the device inoperable.

Its clear he couldn't just do that because also if he could then why would the consequence of resisting be a reality destroying struggle if LT could just snap his fingers and disable the IG?

The only explanation is that LT power wise is not as far beyond the IG as some people would like to believe.

Despite his top authority over all, his feats and displays of power just dont match up.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Down with the Wanda hype. 🙂

so the range of her power is global but indirectly universal?

Originally posted by sexyalexi
so the range of her power is global but indirectly universal?

Originally posted by zopzop
The fact that he was still on his feet while the others were thrown around was something the writer and artist wanted to portray so take it up with them. The Celestial stood his ground while Galactus and others were tossed about like leaves in the wind.

That's your best come back? Ziran was the weaker of the two Celestials there and you think that one depiction somehow puts him on LT's level? So did Ziran get a power up or something because under the same writer and artist he was getting smack the two other IG wielder. And Nebula was the most incompetent user.

TOAA Celestial and Ziran against Thanos.

Nebula owning everyone including Ziran.

Ziran as a marble statue.

You think that one scene puts Ziran's durability = LT >Eternity, Galactus, Chaos, and Order?

The Tribunal ran with his tail between his legs vs Korvac. His highest on panel showing of power was making a star go nova.

Korvac who absorbed Galactus' ship? Now show me any other low end feat like this from LT? You have one bad appearance for a character with a long established history. Compared to other characters, LT has a far better record than any of them, including Doom, Thanos, Spiderman, Wolverine, Superman, Eternity, Dormammu, etc.

Phoenix Force
- Driven into a portal by X-Men & Ultra Force
- Captured and split into two by an alien vessel
- Shattered into billions of pieces and it's host died by a planetary attack from some D list mutant
- Dragged back to life by Shi'Ar weaponry.

The gems only stopped functioning when Warlock submitted to the LT's judgment. Otherwise why the big showdown, if the LT could just turn them off on a whim?

He submitted because he knew the outcome already. He even says that he acts surprise even though he knew of the outcome (because of his omniscience). If he saw that he could've won, you think he would have given up? Reality could be repaired if destroyed. But he wasn't going to put his reality through a confront that he could not have won. Sure LT could fix the 616, but Warlock's it's going to be on head. He didn't want be a that kind of God.

Sure, the Tribunal can't shut it off on a whim if you want to argue that. But not once did the Tribunal back down from any of Warlock's threat and rendered judgement. Not once has the Tribunal been affected in any way by the Gauntlet. On the contrary, the IG's power was reversed and it's effect nulled. Warlock was the one who was shocked by LT's power and still tried denying it. This is akin to a fight between Gladiator and Luke Cage. Luke Cage wouldn't do any thing to Gladiator and the only damaged done will be to there surroundings. Gladiator would win in the end and so would LT if Warlock decided to fight.

Originally posted by 753
It would be at least universal. I personally think it is omniversal as despite the fact that the wave only spread to the whole omniverse because it hit the nexus, the raw power fueling it was still hers.

i kinda thought that if there hadn't been a breach or crack in Otherworld and her warp affected multiple realities simultaneously, that her power would be multiversal. it kinda seemed to me that it spread from reality to reality.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]That's your best come back? Ziran was the weaker of the two Celestials there and you think that one depiction somehow puts him on LT's level? So did Ziran get a power up or something because under the same writer and artist he was getting smack the two other IG wielder. And Nebula was the most incompetent user.

TOAA Celestial and Ziran against Thanos.

Nebula owning everyone including Ziran.

Ziran as a marble statue.

You think that one scene puts Ziran's durability = LT >Eternity, Galactus, Chaos, and Order?

No one is saying a single Celestial is a match for the IG. What impressed me was Ziran standing his ground while the other Abstracts and Cosmics were thrown around. It's obvious Adam wasn't unleashing a "kill" blast, he was just swatting them away. Ziran withstood, the others weren't so lucky. It's right there on panel.

Korvac who absorbed Galactus' ship? Now show me any other low end feat like this from LT? You have one bad appearance for a character with a long established history. Compared to other characters, LT has a far better record than any of them, including Doom, Thanos, Spiderman, Wolverine, Superman, Eternity, Dormammu, etc.

Phoenix Force
- Driven into a portal by X-Men & Ultra Force
- Captured and split into two by an alien vessel
- Shattered into billions of pieces and it's host died by a planetary attack from some D list mutant
- Dragged back to life by Shi'Ar weaponry.

Unless I'm missing something, it has been a while, Korvac didn't absorb Galactus' ship. He interfaced with it and gained knowledge that made him a godlike being. Huge difference.

The problem with the LT is, he has that one low level feat and everything else is speculation.

For all the PF low feats it has high feats to counter. GS and I listed a few in this universe and others.

He submitted because he knew the outcome already. He even says that he acts surprise even though he knew of the outcome (because of his omniscience). If he saw that he could've won, you think he would have given up? Reality could be repaired if destroyed. But he wasn't going to put his reality through a confront that he could not have won. Sure LT could fix the 616, but Warlock's it's going to be on head. He didn't want be a that kind of God.

Sure, the Tribunal can't shut it off on a whim if you want to argue that. But not once did the Tribunal back down from any of Warlock's threat and rendered judgement. Not once has the Tribunal been affected in any way by the Gauntlet. On the contrary, the IG's power was reversed and it's effect nulled. Warlock was the one who was shocked by LT's power and still tried denying it. This is akin to a fight between Gladiator and Luke Cage. Luke Cage wouldn't do any thing to Gladiator and the only damaged done will be to there surroundings. Gladiator would win in the end and so would LT if Warlock decided to fight.

The whole point was, the LT couldn't shut off the IG on a whim. That's what GS and I have been saying all along. If they fought who knows what would have happened aside from some wide-scale destruction and even then I doubt that.

The Tribunal himself said that making that star go nova was his "ultimate judgment".

Warlock would have probably wound up beating his @$$.

And what if we go by LT holding two megaverses like nothing (Megaverse more han a single Multiverse).

Megaverse more than a single Multiverse. Tha trumps any PF feat. So LT also wins by power display, by feats, holding two megaverse like feather.

Originally posted by zopzop
No one is saying a single Celestial is a match for the IG. What impressed me was Ziran standing his ground while the other Abstracts and Cosmics were thrown around. It's obvious Adam wasn't unleashing a "kill" blast, he was just swatting them away. Ziran withstood, the others weren't so lucky. It's right there on panel.

So what's your point then? So you wanna argue that Ziran is more powerful than Eternity and there other abstracts right? I just want to be clear on this. Ziran > Chaos, Order, Eternity, Galactus, etc. It's right there on panel where he was wasted along with the leader of the Celestials when they first attacked Thanos. It's also there on panel when he's turned into marble. How's that on the same level as the Tribunal who just sat there and stopped the attack on his court by just snapping his fingers?

Unless I'm missing something, it has been a while, Korvac didn't absorb Galactus' ship. He interfaced with it and gained knowledge that made him a godlike being. Huge difference.

Knowledge of Galactus' Worldship gave Korvac god-like powers. Knowledge is power. Either way, this is Galactus' World Ship. The being who's as old as the universe y'know? And this was just a bad showing for LT.

The problem with the LT is, he has that one low level feat and everything else is speculation.

- So it was speculation when he stopped Warlock's attack dead and reversed the affects of the Gauntlet? What part of that is speculation?
- LT's mere appearance removed Zom from the 616, a being that was trapped by Eternity and even killed the Ancient One.
- Thanos with TOAA's power says LT is the top being. How's that speculation when a guy who wields the power of Marvel's true supreme being claim LT is the top dog among the cosmic forces?
- How is it speculation when Kubik points out LT being the top being as well.
- Dweller In Darkness states the exact same thing while observing LT holding two architect of realities in his hand.
- She-Hulk argue to save the 616 from being replaced with the Ultimate universe by LT
- Warlock states LT is the servant of "one who is above even the Gods". And that's after he said Eternity accused him of being unfit to be God.
- He made Surfer into a universe like Eternity just so Surfer can experience Godhood.
- How about when he one-shot removed a being that was too vast for any one dimension.

For all the PF low feats it has high feats to counter. GS and I listed a few in this universe and others.

Like? The Phoenix Force has among the worst low showings of the abstracts.

The whole point was, the LT couldn't shut off the IG on a whim. That's what GS and I have been saying all along. If they fought who knows what would have happened aside from some wide-scale destruction and even then I doubt that.

Warlock and LT knew what would happen. Warlock would've lost. At the beginning of the series, Eternity begged LT to step in. When LT stepped in and his entire court was attacked by Warlock, LT sat there and stopped that attack dead in it's track. Find me any character that's stopped the IG's attack that was flooring the abstracts? Warlock was shocked because LT made a joke out of his attack. Not once was the Tribunal scared or shocked by anything Warlock did. You can't say the same about Warlock when it came to LT's actions. And I told you already, if you want to claim LT couldn't have shut it down on a whim then fine. But the only thing endanger if they fought was the universe and Warlock, not the Tribunal. Even the Phoenix Force blink and cause things to happen. LT's words and gestures can reality and stomp people.

The Tribunal himself said that making that star go nova was his "ultimate judgment".

And that's why that's one of his worse showings. Everyone knows that. It's obvious it isn't his ultimate. His ultimate judgement was sealing off the universe which he did and Korvac couldn't escape.

Warlock would have probably wound up beating his @$$.

Please, are you being ignorant? LT had one bad showing and some how Warlock is going to beat him up? But then again, it was the IG. And it was Galactus' Worldship. Thank goodness LT didn't get his ass handed to him to Shi'Ar weaponry, shatter into a billion pieces by D-list mutant with star-for-brain, or driven back by two Earth teams not worth the Defenders time.

But you're going to argue the Shi'Ar's technology is far superior to Galactus' Worldship right? And star-for-brains Xorn harnessing the magnetic field of Earth is more powerful than Korvac who shut off the skyfathers and demons lords access to Earth lol. That nova set off by LT is more powerful than the magnetic energy of Earth y'know? So if LT and Phoenix were to meet up, LT could just harness the power of Earth's sun and give the host a solar stroke that would shatter the Phoenix Force into a trillion pieces.

How do you argue with a straight face that LT's feats are speculation? Or that LT's average doesn't puts him below Phoenix's? Who did Phoenix defeat that's notable? Galactus? WTF.

THE MOST SUPREME POWER. EXIST IN AND JUDGE ALL MULTIVERSES

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So if LT and Phoenix were to meet up

If they were to meet, PF would just bow to him.

Originally posted by Xplosive
If they were to meet, PF would just bow to him.

I concur.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]So what's your point then? So you wanna argue that Ziran is more powerful than Eternity and there other abstracts right? I just want to be clear on this. Ziran > Chaos, Order, Eternity, Galactus, etc. It's right there on panel where he was wasted along with the leader of the Celestials when they first attacked Thanos. It's also there on panel when he's turned into marble. How's that on the same level as the Tribunal who just sat there and stopped the attack on his court by just snapping his fingers?

The writer gave Eternity an "out" by saying if that this was his actuality rather than a representation the Gauntlet's blast effect would have been nonexistent.

But in Ziran's defense, he's never been owned by Nightmare.

On panel you can clearly see the other abstractions get blasted back. Galactus is in the very front of the panel knocked upsidedown and backwards. Ziran is there struggling, but holding his ground.

PS the Tribunal didn't stop the blast. He undid it's effects after the fact.

Knowledge of Galactus' Worldship gave Korvac god-like powers. Knowledge is power. Either way, this is Galactus' World Ship. The being who's as old as the universe y'know? And this was just a bad showing for LT.

Yes but he didn't absorb it as you originally said. There is a difference.

- So it was speculation when he stopped Warlock's attack dead and reversed the affects of the Gauntlet? What part of that is speculation?
- LT's mere appearance removed Zom from the 616, a being that was trapped by Eternity and even killed the Ancient One.
- Thanos with TOAA's power says LT is the top being. How's that speculation when a guy who wields the power of Marvel's true supreme being claim LT is the top dog among the cosmic forces?
- How is it speculation when Kubik points out LT being the top being as well.
- Dweller In Darkness states the exact same thing while observing LT holding two architect of realities in his hand.
- She-Hulk argue to save the 616 from being replaced with the Ultimate universe by LT
- Warlock states LT is the servant of "one who is above even the Gods". And that's after he said Eternity accused him of being unfit to be God.
- He made Surfer into a universe like Eternity just so Surfer can experience Godhood.
- How about when he one-shot removed a being that was too vast for any one dimension.

He didn't stop the attack. He undid the damage after the fact. The same way he didn't force the gems to stop working till after Warlock consented to his judgment.

Hell, Phoenix made Mastermind one with the universe (twice), so I don't see this as something huge. He didn't make him a universe, he gave him a taste of Godhood, same as Phoenix did for Mastermind.

I'll give you the Zom, the HotI, and the other mentions. But most of them we're not shown much on panel. Like Odin/Seth shaking the multiverse and all reality in danger of dying as a result of their battle.

Like? The Phoenix Force has among the worst low showings of the abstracts.

A good portion of the low showings were it's avatars being schooled.

Warlock and LT knew what would happen. Warlock would've lost. At the beginning of the series, Eternity begged LT to step in. When LT stepped in and his entire court was attacked by Warlock, LT sat there and stopped that attack dead in it's track. Find me any character that's stopped the IG's attack that was flooring the abstracts? Warlock was shocked because LT made a joke out of his attack. Not once was the Tribunal scared or shocked by anything Warlock did. You can't say the same about Warlock when it came to LT's actions. And I told you already, if you want to claim LT couldn't have shut it down on a whim then fine. But the only thing endanger if they fought was the universe and Warlock, not the Tribunal. Even the Phoenix Force blink and cause things to happen. LT's words and gestures can reality and stomp people.

How can we assume Warlock would have lost? When the Tribunal states he represents a power that is above the gems, Warlock says this has yet to be seen. If he knew he would eventually lose the gems if they fought, why even make the statement.

And, yes, GS and I were saying the LT couldn't have shut down the gems without the user's consent. That by itself should tell us something.

And that's why that's one of his worse showings. Everyone knows that. It's obvious it isn't his ultimate. His ultimate judgement was sealing off the universe which he did and Korvac couldn't escape.

Even as he was supposedly sealing the universe off, he warned the other abstracts to escape if they had means too. Then after he supposedly sealed it, Order/Chaos said they didn't want to go anywhere since other universes had their own versions of Order/Chaos. So they stayed. Yet why were they even debating the fact if the Tribunal had already run for it and sealed the universe off?

Please, are you being ignorant? LT had one bad showing and some how Warlock is going to beat him up? But then again, it was the IG. And it was Galactus' Worldship. Thank goodness LT didn't get his ass handed to him to Shi'Ar weaponry, shatter into a billion pieces by D-list mutant with star-for-brain, or driven back by two Earth teams not worth the Defenders time.

But you're going to argue the Shi'Ar's technology is far superior to Galactus' Worldship right? And star-for-brains Xorn harnessing the magnetic field of Earth is more powerful than Korvac who shut off the skyfathers and demons lords access to Earth lol. That nova set off by LT is more powerful than the magnetic energy of Earth y'know? So if LT and Phoenix were to meet up, LT could just harness the power of Earth's sun and give the host a solar stroke that would shatter the Phoenix Force into a trillion pieces.

How do you argue with a straight face that LT's feats are speculation? Or that LT's average doesn't puts him below Phoenix's? Who did Phoenix defeat that's notable? Galactus? WTF.

When Galactus came to separate the PF from Rachel and as a result all the stars in creation started winking out of existence, you stated that Galactus was killing the actual PF while GS and I stated he was only killing Rachel (it's even mentioned on panel). So let's assume you were right and he was slowly killing the PF.

Yet when Xorn supposedly blew the PF into a billion pieces nothing happened to creation. The stars weren't phased at all. How can this be when he supposedly nearly killed the PF with an EMP blast?

See the inconsistency?

THE MOST SUPREME POWER. EXIST IN AND JUDGE ALL MULTIVERSES

Yes and from that very same issue, you said that the PF was the lowest on the chain.

Then when you kindly provided the scan, Kubik said the level at which the stars (and the source of their power) operate on is "the first and in many ways the greatest of the principalities", when I asked you if you know what this statement means you just ignored me. Let me ask you again, do you realize what Kubik was saying in that statement?