Originally posted by IRTMU-DragonSo you haven't seen that much Jedi media?
Jedi suck though, Ive never ever seen a single jedi display enough fighting ability or super human reflexes/speed good enough to beat even ant-man.
Why do you go into threads that you don't know about one combatant or the other?
I have never seen spiderman demonstrate the speed I've seen Jedi demonstrate.
Originally posted by IRTMU-Dragon
Jedi suck though, Ive never ever seen a single jedi display enough fighting ability or super human reflexes/speed good enough to beat even ant-man.
ok, i guess you are right...you've been right all along...lol, how bout some proof rather than pointless opinion. Say a geo metro has a blown 454 in it. It races a dadge viper with a stock civic engine in it....your logic is that the dodge viper will win, because it looks a lot faster, and it's cooler. Well, you gotta look at the specs man....of course the geo is going to win. Don't be superficial, take all the info in.
As for the argument that yoda wasnt fighting gravity, that is silly. In spidermans case gravity was helping him. It was pulling the train down onto the tracks, creating friction, which would slow the train down for those who dont understand what "friction" is. And also, gravity doesnt take 10 seconds to kick in, its constantly pulling. Yeah yoda caught it pretty quick, but it was still already accelerating for 2 seconds, PLUS it still had the accel factor weighted in, because gravity in this case, is not negligent. Your REALLY picking the wrong point to argue...
I agree the train was a larger feat, but fact remains yoda still busted out, without passing out....poor spiderman barely could handle his task.
<<And also, gravity doesnt take 10 seconds to kick in, its constantly pulling. Yeah yoda caught it pretty quick, but it was still already accelerating for 2 seconds, PLUS it still had the accel factor weighted in, because gravity in this case, is not negligent. Your REALLY picking the wrong point to argue...>.
(shakes head in disbelief . . .)
gravity isn't negligent?? it doesn't take 10s for gravity to kick in??? of course it's not negligent and doesn't take 10s to kick in!! you need to crack another text, because i've no clue what you're trying to say. gravity is what establishes the WEIGHT of an object, so obviously it's not 'negligent'! but in free fall, an object gains inertia - have someone toss you a medicine ball from three feet away, then have someone drop one on you from a four story building and see which one feels 'heavier'. the longer it falls, the 'heavier' it feels until friction cancels out the acceleration and it falls at a constant speed. and the train in question was out of control - as in it was ACCELERATING! friction (air and track) kept it from accelerating at an infinite speed, but the train was still accelerating. and i wonder how master yoda would have fared if that metal thingy weighed 250 000lbs, instead of the 20 000 or whatever you think it weighed.
in a nutshell - stopping an accelerating train is almost infinitely more impressive than catching that slowly falling piece of metal - OR lifting the swamp fighter, so of COURSE spidey should be more exhausted. i recall yoda being pretty damn tired after he lifted that ship, by the way . . .
i still reserve judgement on this fight til after episode 3.
and you're still right, this is not something you want to argue. least not til you've cracked open a few more textbooks. nor, unfortunately, is it something anyone around here wants to read.
Wow....I was making the point that gravity cannot be ignored in this case, as its working against yoda, and working WITH spiderman. You argue that, yet theres no way around it. I admit the train would be harder, but yoda did it without even TOUCHING it...plus he was not tired afterwards. He picked his cane back up, and walked away...like he always walks. the fact your telling ME to crack another text is rather funny. My grandpa...college physics professor, father, chemical engineer, me....about to receive degree in AERONAUTICAL engineering. Physics is what I know best.
Me debate came from this quote from leon
<<wtf?? he's not fighting the 'force' of the pillar. he's batlling the 'force' of gravity. and gravity does accelerate /s, but yoda grabbed it almost immediately. gravity will hardly have had a chance to acceperate it from its initial position! had it been falling for 10s, then gravity would have had a significant impact on it momentum.>>
To help you understand what im saying, pick up a heavy dumbell. Hold it above your head. You will only be able to do it for so long...its not like once you lift it theres no more force required to keep it up. Now with the train Gravity is working with him. Yes I agree for the 50th time the train is more difficult. The fact remains, these jedi...they arent weak. Spiderman's strength is not superior to theirs. It just isn't. To go back to the beginning of this argument...Id say vador wins...the only way spiderman has a chance is if vador is deprived of his saber. (I said deprived of it, not if he lost it in battle from a cutesy wutesy web)
<<To help you understand what im saying, pick up a heavy dumbell. Hold it above your head. You will only be able to do it for so long...its not like once you lift it theres no more force required to keep it up. Now with the train Gravity is working with him.>>
you're talking in circles, but creshosk is right, this is not a physics forum.
<<the only way spiderman has a chance is if vador is deprived of his saber. (I said deprived of it, not if he lost it in battle from a cutesy wutesy web)>>
but your argument was about how powerful the force is, so . . . why would he need his saber? and what is your fascination with the "ladies", "cutesy wutesy", "spider cutey", "spider woman".
instead of telling everyone all about your 'physics wysics' degree, why don't you learn a little respect for who and WHAT you're debating.
and creshosk, no one was comparing spidey and yoda - don't get all in a huff. we were simply comparing the feats they displayed. (though how the hell yoda's feats came up in this vader thread, i can't even remember . . .)
Originally posted by leonidasI've done that beofre. Gone off on a tangent and not remembered why. . . It just seemed kinda odd comparing the feats of yoda to the feats of spiderman. . .
and creshosk, no one was comparing spidey and yoda - don't get all in a huff. we were simply comparing the feats they displayed. (though how the hell yoda's feats came up in this vader thread, i can't even remember . . .)
Good God in Heaven!!! I truly wish I could quote Thor when he finally arrived to confront Nefaria the first time.
Sumbum you are out of control! I don't know where to start!
Sadly, I took too long to get back into this thread, thereby missing a lot of the insanity. That being said, I will try:
a) sumbum wrote:" I agree the train was a larger feat, but fact remains yoda still busted out, without passing out....poor spiderman barely could handle his task. "
Awesome statement! It proves to me that this forum works. Sumbum went from saying that Yoda's raising the pillar was a far greater task than Spidey's stopping the train to admitting that Spidey's feat was greater. That in my mind is good debate, and kudos to sumbum for admitting he was wrong.
Keeping that in mind let's see if we can get him to come around on the following:
sumbum wrote: " In spidermans case gravity was helping him. It was pulling the train down onto the tracks, creating friction, which would slow the train down "
you are good sumbum, i give you that :-) and you are right gravity was pulling the train down causing friction. but if you were to do a vector diagram of the forces at work you would get the following: pointing down - gravity. pointing up (and EQUAL to gravity) the normal force. Acting against the motion of the train: friction (minimized because the train was on rails and intended to go by engineers the direction it was going) , and air resistance.
Force acting in the direction of the train: the force due to whatever was powering it (electricity, engine, whatever) This force was greater than the friction force and air resistance. This is not speculaton, we know this because the train was accelerating.
Bottom line: gravity and the normal force cancelled out....if they didn't the train would have gone down towards the earth which if clearly didn't. THAT IS BASIC PHYSICS! So either sumbum knows this and is lying hoping to make a point, or he doesn't know jack about physics ...
I have SOOOOO much more to say, sadly its late and I have to get up tomorrow, amd my post is already far too long.
g'night
p.s. sumbum, have your dad or grand dad review my take on the physics of the situation since according to you they are the ones that actually accomplished something in the field.
why are we debating physics?.....it's as simple as this....can spiderman keep from getting force help and then slammed into a wall 25 times? no.......this really needs to end....NOW.
spoilers for ep 3 below:
darth tyrannus was holding obi wan/ or was it anikan? anyways...he was holding one in the air while he continues to combat the other.......he did this with little amount of concentration.....spidey doesn't have any force powers to keep this from happening to him against someone waaaaay more powerful than count dooku in a 1 on 1....really.
I dunno... as awesome as I love Vader and revere the Force, I'd still say that it'd be a sensibly close match with a few stipulations working for Spidey's cause.
The fact that Spidey lives in a universe devoid of the Force sort of makes the argument a bit lop-sided and thus the argument on physics. So, for the Jedi experts, could Spidey be considered Force Adept (considering his spider-sense abilities)? Even if that weren't so, Spidey wouldn't have to have control over the Force to show that he can make it a match for Darth Vader.
As seen in the books and movies, the Force is powerful, but it doesn't make one invincible or absolutely impenetrable. Hell, if a few clone troopers can get the drop on some of the best Jedi out there, a super-powered hero has more than a fighting chance to fend himself against even the Chosen One.
Also, Vader's got the disability of being mostly mechanical--the effects of which aren't clearly seen in the movies. However, as a reference, he certainly isn't jumping and flipping like he was BEFORE he fell to the Dark Side.
But, yeah. Darth Vader's got it in the bag at the peak of his power with superior knowledge of the Force. That doesn't mean Spidey would fall so easily to him. The webbing has questionable effectiveness, nearing uselessness. But it's the physical attributes and fighting prowess that Spider-man's got going for him that puts him on par with Lord Vader. If you've seen, the Force allows for a number of abilities including limited precognition, but most of the physical attributes it allows require direct line-of-sight for manipulation. And as Spidey is one of the premiere evasive heroes in the Marvel universe, (even with his quips) it would be a difficult task for the Sith lord to find his mark.
However, I just don't think Spidey could ever put a knock-out blow to Vader and I'm more confident that, equipped with a lightsaber, Vader would more likely lop off one of his limbs. Spidey just DOESN'T have it in him to take Vader down with the necessary lethal force that's required while Vader has a whole slew of lethal combat attacks.
So, when it comes down to it, Vader wins. But I think that's primarily due to the fighting style inherent in villians. They fight harder and they fight to kill. Spidey is morally mismatched here.
I'm not trying to take away his powers. I was just wondering why he's holed up in a ship most of the time if he can be used as such an effective warrior figure. Granted, he spent a good 20 or so years hunting down Jedi and probably killing them by his own hands, but that's also forgetting that one well-placed photon torpedo can cause the world's most devastating weapon to explode. Some of it just doesn't add up.
There're details and reasons for all of it, yes, but we really don't know HOW to gauge it. For me, I've always felt that the Jedi were a religious order of warriors, but weren't by any means that much more superior to others who displayed similar feats of strength, dedication, and will.
Darth Vader IS a SUPER-villian so why's it so hard to believe that a SUPER-hero like Spider-man couldn't hold a match to him?
Originally posted by jinzin
it's just hard to believe spidey could even do anything offensively AT ALL when everything he throws at vader could just be deflected by the force...
Oh, yeah. I totally agree. But check out the fight btw. Yoda and the Emperor. I think that throwing a bunch of stuff wouldn't do much against a Sith with the experience and talent that New Hope's Darth Vader has, but it could certainly fatigue him... maybe even so much that he flinches. But that just goes to show you that Spider-man just has to throw LOTS OF BIG STUFF and not just try to use his webbing.
The one thing that I REALLY like about this match-up? Not the powers, not the abilities, or anything. It's that even w/o their spectacular powers, both these men are both really proficient with technology, science, and machinery. Granted, Vader's science is different by far, but I think it'd be a close battle if they were both in a Knowledge Bowl. *cough*