<<The TRUE Vader - if there is a true Vader - is the Vader of the movies. That's when it all started : the movies. The comics, the novels, the cartoons... they all are spin offs of the movies, sometimes not even in continuity.>>
i tend to accept this argument. if we are sticking solely to what we've seen in movies, i'm not sure how vader wins. i keep hearing about the force choke. a couple problems i have with it are these: (1) when he did it the first time, it took a while for the guy to die - ie it was no where NEAR instantaneous. and that was just a regular guy. and (2) DV didn't have spidey pounding on his helmet in that scene.
i just don't think the choke scene was done convincingly enough to make me believe he could either use that power at will (ie in the middle of a huge battle) or that it could put someone as strong as spidey out quickly enough. DV could hurl things at spidey, but he's seen that gimmick thousands of times, dodges and attacks. DV's quick with the saber, i'll grant, but i hope we're not saying he's quicker than spidey.
so here's the scenario: they're in some huge domed ring. DV has nothing to hurl at spidey so he tries a force choke. it begins to work - spidey sensing he might be in trouble attacks DV, dodges the saber gets his hands on him and pummels him. OR, he snags DV with a web, spins him around and around and lets him go sending him crashing into the dome ko'ing or nearly ko'ing him - either way breaking the choke.
DV has one chance in this fight - his telepathic abilities must be strong enough to grip and hold spidey so he can actually manipulate spidey's body - freeze him, throw him. and i don't think jinzin's argument about mace hurling droids is valid because i've always been under the belief that people with strong wills can fight the force influence. otherwise, jedi's would never use sabers - they'd just throw and force choke any human force sent against them - ie stormtroopers and the like. since that doesn't happen, there must be a REASON it doesn't happen. i tend to believe it's because jedi's can't affect sentients AS easily as they can mechs. again, i like DV, but based on what i've seen of him, i don't think he can beat spidey.
Alright, once and for all. All this "Vader from the movies is weak" does NOTHING other than to show that you know nothing about the character in general and thusly use only that knowledge to talk stuff out of your ass. You know it's true.
However, seeing as how you're the first IMO to offer a response containing a battle scenario, i'll talk bout it:
Originally posted by leonidas
so here's the scenario: they're in some huge domed ring. DV has nothing to hurl at spidey so he tries a force choke. it begins to work - spidey sensing he might be in trouble attacks DV, dodges the saber gets his hands on him and pummels him. OR, he snags DV with a web, spins him around and around and lets him go sending him crashing into the dome ko'ing or nearly ko'ing him - either way breaking the choke.
1. Unless Spiderman can walk on air, he's not going to even come close to striking distance. Why? Force push. Again, if you don't know about DV don't comment. If he can move a star destroyer (i migth have it wrong, but an incredibly large destroyer or something similar) with Force push, he can certainly do it to Spiderman. He can also hold him in the air. So the moment the wallcrawler starts moving towards him, he'll be choking AND in the air.
Originally posted by leonidas
DV has one chance in this fight - his telepathic abilities must be strong enough to grip and hold spidey so he can actually manipulate spidey's body - freeze him, throw him. and i don't think jinzin's argument about mace hurling droids is valid because i've always been under the belief that people with strong wills can fight the force influence. otherwise, jedi's would never use sabers - they'd just throw and force choke any human force sent against them - ie stormtroopers and the like. since that doesn't happen, there must be a REASON it doesn't happen. i tend to believe it's because jedi's can't affect sentients AS easily as they can mechs. again, i like DV, but based on what i've seen of him, i don't think he can beat spidey.
You're under false belief. Force push, choke and the others have nothing to do with the weak mind. Only mindtricks do. Like convincing Spiderman he's already won and having him forfeit by leaving.
And yeah, they do throw and force choke any human force sent against them. but they prefer to have their own army that can do that while they sip Marguaritas (exaggerating but you get the idea).
And again, i don't care what you think based on what you've seen of him, because you don't have enough knowledge to continue this discussion.
~wickerman~
<<You're under false belief. Force push, choke and the others have nothing to do with the weak mind. Only mindtricks do. Like convincing Spiderman he's already won and having him forfeit by leaving.
And yeah, they do throw and force choke any human force sent against them.>>
really? wickerman, you've done the old 'i have no real evidence so i'll insult and rant until you believe me', trick. when has any jedi mind choked or force throttled an army of stormtroopers? you mean they'd rather saber all of them? luke is supposed to be stronger than vader - he couldn't even do a thing to jaba the frickin' hut! not to mention nearly getting eaten by a flippin' dinosaur!! and kenobi nearly had his ass handed to him by boba fett!! and kenobi ultimately stalemated DV.
<<i don't care what you think based on what you've seen of him, because you don't have enough knowledge to continue this discussion.>>
you're just not understanding, are you: i am (and many others are as well) basing this entire debate on (ready for this because i know it's been said MANY times in this thread . . .)
I'M BASING THIS ON WHAT I HAVE SEEN IN THE MOVIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
if there is a 'secret' vader (ie) a DV shown in comics and novels to be more powerful than 'movie' vader - i readily admit that perhaps THAT vader (the secret one if you're keeping score wickerman) might be able to demolish spidey. nothing of 'movie' DV leads me to this assumption however.
'movie' vader v spidey -> spidey
'secret' vader v spidey -> ??????
clear enough. (and i said if there were more to DV than the shows my knowedge was limited - hence my debating purely on what i've SEEN. whether you care about it or not.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<'movie' vader v spidey -> spidey
'secret' vader v spidey -> ??????
Like Darth Vader is gonna hit Spider-Man with all he's got (force chokes, mind tricks, telekinesis, whatever) the minute he spots him - a Spider-Man standing preferably a few hundred meters away also, so that Darth Vader can take his time to use the Force 😄
Originally posted by leonidas
<<You're under false belief. Force push, choke and the others have nothing to do with the weak mind. Only mindtricks do. Like convincing Spiderman he's already won and having him forfeit by leaving.
And yeah, they do throw and force choke any human force sent against them.>>really? wickerman, you've done the old 'i have no real evidence so i'll insult and rant until you believe me', trick. when has any jedi mind choked or force throttled an army of stormtroopers? you mean they'd rather saber all of them? luke is supposed to be stronger than vader - he couldn't even do a thing to jaba the frickin' hut! not to mention nearly getting eaten by a flippin' dinosaur!! and kenobi nearly had his ass handed to him by boba fett!! and kenobi ultimately stalemated DV.
<<i don't care what you think based on what you've seen of him, because you don't have enough knowledge to continue this discussion.>>
you're just not understanding, are you: i am (and many others are as well) basing this entire debate on (ready for this because i know it's been said MANY times in this thread . . .)
I'M BASING THIS ON WHAT I HAVE SEEN IN THE MOVIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
if there is a 'secret' vader (ie) a DV shown in comics and novels to be more powerful than 'movie' vader - i readily admit that perhaps THAT vader (the secret one if you're keeping score wickerman) might be able to demolish spidey. nothing of 'movie' DV leads me to this assumption however.
'movie' vader v spidey -> spidey
'secret' vader v spidey -> ??????clear enough. (and i said if there were more to DV than the shows my knowedge was limited - hence my debating purely on what i've SEEN. whether you care about it or not.
"when has any jedi mind choked or force throttled an army of stormtroopers? you mean they'd rather saber all of them? luke is supposed to be stronger than vader - he couldn't even do a thing to jaba the frickin' hut! not to mention nearly getting eaten by a flippin' dinosaur!! and kenobi nearly had his ass handed to him by boba fett!! and kenobi ultimately stalemated DV."
ummmm okay........jedi's took it to entire armies all throughout clone wars........It's my firm beleif that vader despite his love for his children....is still a sadistic murdering bastard.......when he force choked the guy in the first movie...it was slow....why you ask? okay....IMO it was to make him suffer for his failure....SUFFER....being the prime word.....Now why would vader who even in the movies was able to force toss large metal crates etc....have a problem choking one guy.......another thing....if his force choke was as patheitc as you're making it out to be....who in the hell would he have been able to do it to his admiral....who was literally entire star systems away?
anyone using the fact that an old obi wan held his own for a very short time against vader is out of their damn minds......for a jedi....old doesn't equate to slow and harmless and frail.....using the movies alone...yoda is able to demonstrate this most entertainingly......it's like extremely old monks in shaolin temples who do the same thing and spring to life to demonstrate kung fu...and then retire to their previous states.....
has far as lukes less than impressive showings.....lets get something straight here...luke skywalker had untapped potential......TONS of UNTAPPED potential.......he could exceed vader.....in the comics he DID exceed vader in the use of the force....but during the examples you're referring to his power wasn't yet realized......for instance: we never saw vader have a jabba problem nor did we ever see vader almost eaten by a dinosaur so the comparison is moote......dinosaur? wtf? is that what you thought that was?
the thing about vader and the entire cast....even bobba fett.....is that they are fictional characters.....characters develop.....vader in turn developed.......using spiderman at his weakest is not a good argument? but using vader at his weakest is?....I simply don't follow that logic......at all.
anyways.....vader developed into a definitively strong character....and for how vader was portrayed in any other median than the first movies parker would die....if parker fought movie vader he would die........force push equals parker can't web can't close ground....can't win.......spiderman dies....
Originally posted by leonidas
you're just not understanding, are you: i am (and many others are as well) basing this entire debate on (ready for this because i know it's been said MANY times in this thread . . .)I'M BASING THIS ON WHAT I HAVE SEEN IN THE MOVIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
if there is a 'secret' vader (ie) a DV shown in comics and novels to be more powerful than 'movie' vader - i readily admit that perhaps THAT vader (the secret one if you're keeping score wickerman) might be able to demolish spidey. nothing of 'movie' DV leads me to this assumption however.
'movie' vader v spidey -> spidey
'secret' vader v spidey -> ??????clear enough. (and i said if there were more to DV than the shows my knowedge was limited - hence my debating purely on what i've SEEN. whether you care about it or not.
This is exactly what i was saying. That you have knowledge only of the feats in the movies. And those to say the truth sucked because of the day and age they were made in. You should definitely read the SW books though.
What i'm saying is that the people here arguing about SPiderman vs. the movie Vader aren't doing him enough justice. But still, since you don't know anything else about him, let's use movie Vader.
Spiderman and Darth Vader are in a large metal dome. (since i saw someone using that environment in this thread as an example). Spiderman as always is crawling a wall. Vader's just standing there. Spidey's attack would most likely involve trying to jump Vader. If Vader was blind and couldn't see the red and blue spot on the wall...ok....his precog. force skills would let him know. Anyway, Spiderman jumps at him. Vader moves a hand in the air and stops Spiderman in the air (since SM doesn't weigh as much as some of the things VAder was throwing at luke in the movies). SM shocked most likely attempts to toss webbing towards Vader so he can drop him. Vader moves another hand in the air and stops the webbing. He proceeds to force push SM against the wall and his own webbing hold him. And while he's crucified by his own webbing, force choke. Slowly and sadistically or quickly and efficiently....your pick.
~wickerman~
ps: try to understand that i'm not a DV fan. However much that would make you happy, i'm not. I'd be considered a DV fanboy if there was a DV vs. the Emperor, Yoda and MAce Windu thread and i would argue DV would win.
I see that the only people who are argueing Spidey are trying to force some warped reality on Vader so that their fanboyism can continue unhindered. You really want to argue "original movie vader?" Let's just forget the fact jabba the hut was a fat guy in fur due to budget cost. If you truly want to argue "original vader" find a screen play and find all the stuff they had to leave out.
Originally posted by Wickerman
This is exactly what i was saying. That you have knowledge only of the feats in the movies. And those to say the truth sucked because of the day and age they were made in. You should definitely read the SW books though. What i'm saying is that the people here arguing about SPiderman vs. the movie Vader aren't doing him enough justice. But still, since you don't know anything else about him, let's use movie Vader.
No its okay we can use all "feats" displaying the combatants abilities/powers from books, movies, cartoons, etc..
With that being said...the strength/durability that enabled SM to KO villians such as Firelord, Hulk, Rhino and to stop speeding locomotives....would make it far too difficult for Vader to contain/subdue him with a simple force push/hold/choke.....and he's much too fast for Vader to evade every single blow he throws at him..
SM was also rejected by death in the Infinity Gauntlet Storyline..so that means he's immortal..there is no way Vader will be able to subdue him short of moleculer dispersion...😆 😆
..I'd be considered a DV fanboy if there was a DV vs. the Emperor, Yoda and MAce Windu thread and i would argue DV would win.
...Or if you decided that everything from every book, comic, television commercial, video game, action figure toy line, etc..should be considered as accurate in gauging Vader's abilities.. Starboys..you gotta love em..😆
Originally posted by whobdamandog
No its okay we can use all "feats" displaying the combatants abilities/powers from books, movies, cartoons, etc..With that being said...the strength/durability that enabled SM to KO villians such as Firelord, Hulk, Rhino and to stop speeding locomotives....would make it far too difficult for Vader to contain/subdue him with a simple force push/hold/choke.....and he's much too fast for Vader to evade every single blow he throws at him..
SM was also rejected by death in the Infinity Gauntlet Storyline..so that means he's immortal..there is no way Vader will be able to subdue him short of moleculur dispersion...😆 😆
...Or if you decided that everything from every book, comic, television commercial, video game, action figure toy line, etc..should be considered as accurate in gauging Vader's abilities.. Starboys..you gotta love em..😆
you just keep assuming that Spiderman would even get close to vader.
1. All your points about Spidey's speed and strength are moot unless he can come close to Vader.
2. Even if he DID by somemiracle come close enough to be in hitting range of bucket head, he'd find himself knocked back by the force and have to get to him again.
And i didn't decide that everything should be used. But since you're using everything Spiderman has, why shouldn't we do the same for Vader? All you spider boy fanboys are trying your best to weaken DV as much as possible so that wallcrawler can have a little chance at even surviving this encounter. If you do indeed want us to use only DV's appearances in the movies, then cool. We'll use those, and Spiderman's first three comic appearances.
~wickerman~
<<This is exactly what i was saying. That you have knowledge only of the feats in the movies.>>
agreed. i said it numerous times. and if there is indeed more, than my argument doesn't pertain to it. most fans on the street know DV only from the movies however. if, as jinzin claims, DV shows 'real' power in the last movie, than my arguments will be null and void. i've never claimed differently.
<<What i'm saying is that the people here arguing about SPiderman vs. the movie Vader aren't doing him enough justice. But still, since you don't know anything else about him, let's use movie Vader.>>
again i just haven't seen him demonstrate such an ability - he may INDEED be able to do the scenario you suggest - i've just not seen him do anything like it. maybe in this last movie?
and jinzin my man, i don't think you should be allowed to raise anymore arguments when you use this to tell me why kenobi had his ass handed to him by boba fett:
<<the thing about vader and the entire cast....even bobba fett.....is that they are fictional characters.....characters develop.....vader in turn developed.......>>
what????? they're fictional?? no way! so tell me again why didn't kenobi, a trained, VERY powerful jedi, not force choke/force push/force pummel boba fett? because he was fictional? kenobi developed quite well in the movies. he didn't crush him because he couldn't. at least not in the movies.
<<no no, since they want Vader's first 3 appearances, we'll just use Spiderman's first 3 appearances. Sounds fair to me. doesn't it sound fair to you Mercilous?>>
even for you guys that's a ridiculous argument. in his first 3 appearances spidey was new to his power. in the first 3 SW DV had already taken over the galaxy and had TONS of history. nice argument.