Does The Bible Contradict It's self?

Originally posted by peejayd
* there are many kinds of trees in the Garden, but not all trees have edible fruits, it would be very disobedient in the part of Adam to eat the very thing God forbids, for the Garden is full of fruit-bearing trees he can eat from... 😉

You didn't answer his question.

Why did God put a tree that would end up damning the human race in the first place?

And why is God such a strict hard ass, that he would damn entire civilizations for eating a fruit ?

AND..why did God allow Satan in the "perfect" Garden ?

Originally posted by peejayd
* even in Genesis 2:4-7, it does NOT say that Adam was created before the animals... it's only your pre-conceived idea, my friend...

Genesis 2:7-25 states that both Adam and the animals were created before Eve; an interesting feat considering that Genesis 1:27 states that Adam and Eve were created simultaneously.

Originally posted by peejayd
* you are quite good at twisting what i've said... i never said that Job 38:4-7 is figurative, i just said that the "morning stars" in Job 38:7 is NOT literal stars... and the book of Job does NOT supply the narration of the story of Creation...

So when God asks Job, “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth . . . When the morning stars sang together,” He was not referring to the creation?

Originally posted by peejayd
* there is no problem for the waters to BRING FORTH swarms of living creatures and birds, so long as those beasts in the field and birds were FORMED out of the ground...

However, this is not what the verse states.

Originally posted by peejayd
* still, the word, "account" was preceded by a definite article "the" which denotes either singular OR plural depending on the context...

* the word, "day" was preceded too by a definite article "the"... you CANNOT refute the fact that the word "day" is only "one day" like you want to imply... 😉

In the verse, “This is the account of the heavens and the earth, in the day that the LORD God made creation,” the phrase, “the day,” is not up for interpretation. The is a definite article, and day is a singular noun; both denote a particular or specified thing.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
In the verse, “This is the account of the heavens and the earth, in the day that the LORD God made creation,” the phrase, “the day,” is not up for interpretation. The is a definite article, and day is a singular noun; both denote a particular or specified thing.

Actually "day" can have multiple meanings. Day can refer to a 24 hour period, the period of time between sunrise and sunset, the time one is awake during a 24 hour period.

... OR it can refer to an age, epoch, etc.

Day just isn't quite as definitive as you make out there. Not to mention you've got to look at what happened on that day as well, "made creation" could refer to the whole of the act of creation from beginning to end, or it could refer to just the finishing of creation.

Unfortunately for us the Bible is written in generalities more often than specifics. The ancient Hebrews tended to speak (and write) in an artistic manner. Compare that to modern Americans, we speak and understand things in a more architectural mindset. We see definite borders. Their borders were more hazy, indistinct.

Originally posted by docb77
Actually "day" can have multiple meanings. Day can refer to a 24 hour period, the period of time between sunrise and sunset, the time one is awake during a 24 hour period.

... OR it can refer to an age, epoch, time, etc.

Day just isn't quite as definitive as you make out there. Not to mention you've got to look at what happened on that day as well, "made creation" could refer to the whole of the act of creation from beginning to end, or it could refer to just the finishing of creation.

Unfortunately for us the Bible is written in generalities more often than specifics. The ancient Hebrews tended to speak (and write) in an artistic manner. Compare that to modern Americans, we speak and understand things in a more architectural mindset. We see definite borders. Their borders were more hazy, indistinct.

Or the bible could just be historical crap.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You didn't answer his question.

Why did God put a tree that would end up damning the human race in the first place?

* i did not directly answer it because the Bible does not supply the reason behind it... as i have said in earlier post, i won't question God's decisions...

"But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, Why have you made me thus?"
Romans 9:20

* and if the Bible does not supply any reason behind it, secret things belong to God...

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Deuteronomy 29:29

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
And why is God such a strict hard ass, that he would damn entire civilizations for eating a fruit ?

* the commandment was made directly between the Creator and His first very creature, surely you understand how grave that was...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
AND..why did God allow Satan in the "perfect" Garden ?

* free will, my friend, Satan just went there... 😉

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Genesis 2:7-25 states that both Adam and the animals were created before Eve; an interesting feat considering that Genesis 1:27 states that Adam and Eve were created simultaneously.

* yes, both Adam and the animals were created first before Eve...

"Then God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
Genesis 1:26

* this is the pronouncement of God - to make man in His image... God did not include woman...

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."
Genesis 1:27

* this passage is not from God, but a conclusion made by the writer, Moses...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
So when God asks Job, “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth . . . When the morning stars sang together,” He was not referring to the creation?

* slightly, however you still cannot prove that the book of Job is narrating the chronological order of the Creation...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
However, this is not what the verse states.

* it really does, if the birds were FORMED from the waters, the Bible should have said so, but nope, the waters only BROUGHT FORTH the birds and NOT formed from it...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
In the verse, “This is the account of the heavens and the earth, in the day that the LORD God made creation,” the phrase, “the day,” is not up for interpretation. The is a definite article, and day is a singular noun; both denote a particular or specified thing.

* however, even particular things may denote plural meaning like collective nouns, my friend... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* yes, both Adam and the animals were created first before Eve...

* this is the pronouncement of God - to make man in His image... God did not include woman...

* this passage is not from God, but a conclusion made by the writer, Moses...

Congratulations on defeating your own argument; if The Bible contains an erroneous conclusion, then it is not inerrant. How did that get by an infallible God?

Originally posted by peejayd
* slightly, however you still cannot prove that the book of Job is narrating the chronological order of the Creation...

When God asks Job, “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth . . . When the morning stars sang together,” He is either referring to the creation or He is not. Slightly does not factor into it.

Originally posted by peejayd
* it really does, if the birds were FORMED from the waters, the Bible should have said so, but nope, the waters only BROUGHT FORTH the birds and NOT formed from it...

So we are to believe that the birds were formed from the earth, but brought forth from the water?

If the command for the water to bring forth birds does not mean that the birds were formed from the water, then what were the "swarms of living creatures" formed from?

Originally posted by peejayd
* however, even particular things may denote plural meaning like collective nouns, my friend... 😉

By all means, illustrate how the phrase "the day" is denotative of a collective noun.

Originally posted by peejayd
* i did not directly answer it because the Bible does not supply the reason behind it... as i have said in earlier post, i won't question God's decisions...

But I will....and so far you have produced no results....logic does not stem from the Bible, though, now does it?

Originally posted by peejayd
"But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, Why have you made me thus?"
Romans 9:20

It's not big deal if God doesn't exist...would you blame the Ancient Greek Philosophers for questioning Zeus ?

Originally posted by peejayd
* and if the Bible does not supply any reason behind it, secret things belong to God...

The Bible proves nothing, and you expect people to blindly beleive in something shrouded in contradiction, and in a book that is the basis for much of the violence that has occured throughout history.....

Originally posted by peejayd
"The secret things belong to the LORD our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Deuteronomy 29:29

LOL you can't answer my question accurately, so you resort to claiming "it's a secret" 😆 😆 😆 😆

How pathetic....you're trying to convince someone that you're Faith is indeed correct and valid, but then you are going to answer that the answer to my question is a secret?

o0o0o wow....i totally buy that, you've successfully converted me lol

Originally posted by peejayd
* the commandment was made directly between the Creator and His first very creature, surely you understand how grave that was...

Let me get this straight.....

The First human who has almost no experience with life whatsoever, no maturity, very little knowledge and understanding of his existance, let alone what existance is, gets cast out of the Garden of Eden into a life of hardship and into an afterlife of Hell because he eats a fruit that God told him not to eat, from a tree that God should not have put in the first place....

You are blind since you cannot see the irrationality behind that whole myth...

Originally posted by peejayd
* free will, my friend, Satan just went there... 😉

😆

Another cop out ! This is even WORSE than "God works in mysterious ways"

Why did God allow Satan there? Did God think Satan was just there to sulk in the sun and masturbate all day ?

Surely as wise as omniscient as God is over his own creation, he must have known that Satan was up to no -good and his first targets would be Adam and Eve....unless God is really that stupid, and thought Satan meant no harm going to the Garden 🙄

God did a great job protecting his children from an evil serpant, who not only got them kicked out of a beautiful realm, but also cost them an eternity of infernal torture....

Yes, your God is a God of rationality and reason 🙄

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Congratulations on defeating your own argument; if The Bible contains an erroneous conclusion, then it is not inerrant. How did that get by an infallible God?

* however, my stand is NOT like what you think... i have stated that there are contradictions in the Bible due to the fact that it is not only the word of God was stated in it... it contains words of people, demons, angels, prophets, false prophets, etc...

* i hope you understand that Genesis 1:26 is a statement of God while Genesis 1:27 is a conclusion from the writer, Moses...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
When God asks Job, “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth . . . When the morning stars sang together,” He is either referring to the creation or He is not. Slightly does not factor into it.

* what i mean is, God refers to the Creation but does NOT refer to the chronological order of Creation...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
So we are to believe that the birds were formed from the earth, but brought forth from the water?

* yes...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
If the command for the water to bring forth birds does not mean that the birds were formed from the water, then what were the "swarms of living creatures" formed from?

* Genesis 2:19 says every beast was formed out of the ground too...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
By all means, illustrate how the phrase "the day" is denotative of a collective noun.

* after the story of Creation, it was summed up here:

"These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created. In the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,"
Genesis 2:4

* even if you tried to reason that the word "generations" is "account" in other translations, the fact remains -> THESE ARE the generations/account... so basically, the word "day" was to be implied plurally... 😉

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But I will....and so far you have produced no results....logic does not stem from the Bible, though, now does it?

It's not big deal if God doesn't exist...would you blame the Ancient Greek Philosophers for questioning Zeus ?

The Bible proves nothing, and you expect people to blindly beleive in something shrouded in contradiction, and in a book that is the basis for much of the violence that has occured throughout history.....

LOL you can't answer my question accurately, so you resort to claiming "it's a secret" 😆 😆 😆 😆

How pathetic....you're trying to convince someone that you're Faith is indeed correct and valid, but then you are going to answer that the answer to my question is a secret?

o0o0o wow....i totally buy that, you've successfully converted me lol

* i'm not trying to convince you, my silly friend... it's just that i believe in the Bible... and the Bible does NOT supply the answer to your question on why God had put the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in the Garden...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Let me get this straight.....

The First human who has almost no experience with life whatsoever, no maturity, very little knowledge and understanding of his existance, let alone what existance is, gets cast out of the Garden of Eden into a life of hardship and into an afterlife of Hell because he eats a fruit that God told him not to eat, from a tree that God should not have put in the first place....

You are blind since you cannot see the irrationality behind that whole myth...

* i would consider Adam to have almost no experience in life... but Adam has no maturity? very little knowledge and understanding of his existance? God created him in a ripe age... God did NOT created the first human to be a baby...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
😆

Another cop out ! This is even WORSE than "God works in mysterious ways"

Why did God allow Satan there? Did God think Satan was just there to sulk in the sun and masturbate all day ?

Surely as wise as omniscient as God is over his own creation, he must have known that Satan was up to no -good and his first targets would be Adam and Eve....unless God is really that stupid, and thought Satan meant no harm going to the Garden 🙄

God did a great job protecting his children from an evil serpant, who not only got them kicked out of a beautiful realm, but also cost them an eternity of infernal torture....

Yes, your God is a God of rationality and reason 🙄

* God gave the angels and humans the power of free will... if Satan wants to go in the Garden, he can... Adam also has the power to resist evil but he did NOT...

* God is not omniscient or all-knowing... maybe that's the reason why you are so angry with God whom you did NOT even know... 🙄

Sounds like we really need an expert in Hebrew to bother continuing the Adam Poe vs. peejayd debate.

Originally posted by peejayd
* God gave the angels and humans the power of free will... if Satan wants to go in the Garden, he can... Adam also has the power to resist evil but he did NOT...

What did Satan do to be declared true evil? The manifestation of evil?

So... he tricks Eve (or more takes advantage of the ignorance and weak will God gave his creation) and then rebelled against God in heaven - none of this is actual evil.

For some reason he falls and he magically becomes evil whose only purpose is to make us suffer... to be fair that reminds me of certain dodgy characters in fan fictions.

He "tricks" eve using intelectual symbols.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
What did Satan do to be declared true evil? The manifestation of evil?

So... he tricks Eve (or more takes advantage of the ignorance and weak will God gave his creation) and then rebelled against God in heaven - none of this is actual evil.

"How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!
You said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High."
Isaiah 14:12-14

* Satan wants to be like God, and projects the exact opposite of the will of God:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden;
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."
Genesis 2:16-17

* see how Satan directly and blatantly opposes this statement...

"But the serpent said to the woman, You will not die."
Genesis 3:4

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
For some reason he falls and he magically becomes evil whose only purpose is to make us suffer... to be fair that reminds me of certain dodgy characters in fan fictions.

* Satan does not only represent evil but the real essence of it...

"He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God ."
John 8:47

* people who are not of God are considered of whom?

"You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
John 8:44

* that's why if we have to blame someone, blame Satan... Satan is the cause of all these atrocities... 😛

Originally posted by peejayd
* however, my stand is NOT like what you think... i have stated that there are contradictions in the Bible due to the fact that it is not only the word of God was stated in it... it contains words of people, demons, angels, prophets, false prophets, etc...

* i hope you understand that Genesis 1:26 is a statement of God while Genesis 1:27 is a conclusion from the writer, Moses...

If The Bible is not inerrant, then how is one to determine which parts are true, and which parts are false?

Originally posted by peejayd
* what i mean is, God refers to the Creation but does NOT refer to the chronological order of Creation...

Job 38:4-7 references order, “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth . . . When the morning stars sang together.”

Clearly, the stars were created before the earth. Hence, the morning stars sang together when God laid the foundation of the earth.

Originally posted by peejayd
* yes...

How convenient.

Originally posted by peejayd
* Genesis 2:19 says every beast was formed out of the ground too...

The creation account in Genesis 2 is the one in question.

Originally posted by peejayd
* after the story of Creation, it was summed up here:

"These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created. In the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,"
Genesis 2:4

* even if you tried to reason that the word "generations" is "account" in other translations, the fact remains -> THESE ARE the generations/account... so basically, the word "day" was to be implied plurally... 😉

Genesis 2:4

This is the account of the heavens and the earth, in the day that the LORD God made creation.

Note the is a definite article, and account is a singular noun. There is no denotative plurality, nor is there connotative plurality.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
If The Bible is not inerrant, then how is one to determine which parts are true, and which parts are false?

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world."
I John 4:1

* test the spirits if they are of God...

"I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, "O my lord, what shall be the issue of these things?"
He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.
Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but those who are wise shall understand."
Daniel 12:8-10

* even the prophet Daniel did not understand because the words are shut up until the endtimes... none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise one in the endtimes...

* i'll give you an example...

"So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh;
And the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.
Then the man said, This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."
Genesis 2:21-24

* see another conclusion from Moses? this is also an honest mistake for Adam and Eve does not have any parents to leave from...

"And said, For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?
So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."
Matthew 19:5-6

* here, Jesus clears up that the statement is not for Adam and Eve but of two things joined together... i believe that the two things joined are not literal but spiritual...

"It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life."
John 6:63

* and according to the wisdom of God given to Saint Paul, the statement was fully revealed...

"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church;"
Ephesians 5:31-32

* the two things joined together is Christ and the church...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Job 38:4-7 references order, “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth . . . When the morning stars sang together.”

Clearly, the stars were created before the earth. Hence, the morning stars sang together when God laid the foundation of the earth.

"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements--surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
Job 38:4-7

* it is only your pre-conceived idea or your personal opinion that says the stars were created before the earth...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The creation account in Genesis 2 is the one in question.

* the birds were formed out of the ground, and so are the other animals...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Note the is a definite article, and account is a singular noun. There is no denotative plurality, nor is there connotative plurality.

* okay, i'll try a different approach... what is the "account"? what does the "account" represents? 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world."
I John 4:1

Moses is not a "false prophet," and yet, according to you, he is responsible for more than one biblical error.

Originally posted by peejayd
* it is only your pre-conceived idea or your personal opinion that says the stars were created before the earth...

The morning stars could not sing together when God laid the foundation of the earth if they did not exist. For this to be possible, the stars had to be created before the earth. This is not an opinion, it is what the verse states.

Originally posted by peejayd
* the birds were formed out of the ground, and so are the other animals...

This includes the "swarms of living creatures" even though the verse in question does not specifically mention them, and despite the fact that God commands that they be brought forth from the water?

Originally posted by peejayd
* okay, i'll try a different approach... what is the "account"? what does the "account" represents? 😉

The (definite article) account (singular noun) is of the heavens and the earth, in the (definite article) day (singular noun) that the LORD God made creation.

Originally posted by peejayd
* i'm not trying to convince you, my silly friend... it's just that i believe in the Bible... and the Bible does NOT supply the answer to your question on why God had put the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in the Garden...

That's the answer I was hoping you'd give...you DONT KNOW....thanks for finally admitting it.

The Bible is incomplete...

Originally posted by peejayd
* i would consider Adam to have almost no experience in life... but Adam has no maturity? very little knowledge and understanding of his existance? God created him in a ripe age... God did NOT created the first human to be a baby...

So ...

...what.....?

I am sure Adam and Eve didn't imagine that thier "father" would not only banish them into a life of hardship, and destroy a perfectly good garden, but also send thier future generations to a realm of eternal torture...

Originally posted by peejayd
* God gave the angels and humans the power of free will... if Satan wants to go in the Garden, he can... Adam also has the power to resist evil but he did NOT...

Yes, but all of those actions had SEVERE consequences didn't it ?

So Satan exists in Hell and still has the power to influence us, even though God can easily keep Satan away from us, and we'd pretty much follow God and it'd be all good...

But no..like an irresponsible drunken excuse for a father, God allows evil forces to tamper, provoke, seduce, and torture our beings while in life....

Originally posted by peejayd
* God is not omniscient or all-knowing... maybe that's the reason why you are so angry with God whom you did NOT even know... 🙄

Would you say God is rational?

Would you say it is rational to send your first Son and Daughter to Hell ? And then on top of that, send millions and millions of people to Hell afterward, even though they did nothing wrong? Just for being born...?

Would a rational being even CREATE a place like Hell ?

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Moses is not a "false prophet," and yet, according to you, he is responsible for more than one biblical error.

* i did not say that Moses is a false prophet... i just answered your question: "how is one to determine which parts are true, and which parts are false?" and the Bible says that we should not believe every spirit but test them first if they are of God...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The morning stars could not sing together when God laid the foundation of the earth if they did not exist. For this to be possible, the stars had to be created before the earth. This is not an opinion, it is what the verse states.

* the morning stars are not literal stars...

"As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven lampstands are the seven churches."
Revelation 1:20

* stars symbolizes God's angels...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
This includes the "swarms of living creatures" even though the verse in question does not specifically mention them, and despite the fact that God commands that they be brought forth from the water?

* Genesis 2:19 says EVERY beast and EVERY bird was formed out of the ground...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The (definite article) account (singular noun) is of the heavens and the earth, in the (definite article) day (singular noun) that the LORD God made creation.

* what i mean was, is the word "account" or "generations" or even "histories" (in other translation) refers to the entire Creation or not? 😉