Does The Bible Contradict It's self?

Originally posted by peejayd
* but NOT for His children... hell is for Satan, his angels and all those people who side with him...

* why eternal torment?

Then why do God's children (all of us) go to Hell if we don't beleive ?

Eternal Torment yes...as all Christians claim, and as the Bible itself claims...that's what Hell is....ask JIA

Originally posted by peejayd
* "But to what angel has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand, till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet"?
Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?"
Hebrews 1:13-14

And your point is ?

[i]Originally posted by peejayd
* "For they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."
Luke 20:36[/I]

You mean those who beleive...i presume....

So the non beleivers are all demons and should go to Hell ? 🤨

Originally posted by peejayd
* * angels are spirits and cannot die, and eternal torment is the most suitable punishment for those who cannot die...

Eternal Torment is suitable punishment ?

This is where I think your zealot insanity comes into play.....NO ONE deserves eternal torment, no one deserves torment of ANY kind...that again shows how cruel you and your God are.... ❌

Originally posted by peejayd
* * humans are created according to the likeness and image of God (Genesis 1:26), and humans can rise different emotions - love, anger, joy, hatred, kindness, etc...

IRRELEVANT.....the fact that God possesses those emotions; wrath and jealousy- shows how FLAWED he is, implies HE IS a SINNER HIMSELF, the biggest sinner of all, and shows the hypocrisy that comes with his "majesty". How can you ignore the obvious flaw presented ?

Originally posted by peejayd
* * as i've said earlier, not all people are children of God...

If God created us, then we are all his children. Even Satan is his child since God created Satan....now whether God disowns us is another story....

Originally posted by peejayd
* * i never read of such doctrine, it's not Christian-like... here's whati've read...

......

Originally posted by peejayd
* "This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
I Timothy 2:3-4

* God wants all people to be saved...

If God truly wants all people to be saved, then why doesn't he accept everyone into Heaven? Why segregate his own children? Doesn't sound loving to me, in fact sounds quite discriminatory.....

so God don't want homosexuals, muslims, jews, buddhists, hindus, etc. in his Heaven? He don't sound loving to me.....he sounds BIAS. 🙁

Originally posted by peejayd
* * maybe you read a different book... i would gladly give verses in the Bible to prove to you that hell is NOT for those people who are kind-hearted... 😉

Yet the Bible clearly states that those who do not beleive in Christ end up in Hell...even JIA, the zealot extraordinare, says that good people can end up in Hell....

So what say you...what happens to a kind hearted person who doesn't beleive in Christ.....do they go to Heaven or Hell ?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Which would work if all nonbelievers where baby eating, kitten torturing blasphemers bent of badness.

But most nonbelievers aren't anything like that, and the fact they are nonbelievers should not equate them with being in Satan's service.

And I say "bah" to God and the Devil's chess game for humanity. Humanity is the grey line. It is humanity I believe in, not the supposed aloof beings who invisibly move pieces around a board.

* "humanity" is NOT the gray line, disregarding the existence of God and Satan will take you nowhere...

"Unfaithful creatures! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God."
James 4:4

* because the world itself in which the humanity dwells on is tainted with evil...

"The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; he covers the faces of its judges-- if it is not he, who then is it?"
Job 9:24

* and Satan himself was the self-proclaimed god of this world that the humanity dwells upon...

"In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God."
II Corinthians 4:4

* here lies where a person must choose...

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live,"
Deuteronomy 30:19

* as i've said earlier, there is no gray lines between good and evil, life and death, blessing and curse... God had given us the recommendation -> choose life...

"He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."
John 8:47

* one CANNOT be 50% good and 50% evil... 😉

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Here, God creates animals to provide Adam with a helper. Hence, Adam is created before the animals. Adam then proceeds to name the animals, after which, God determines that none are a suitable helper for Adam, so He creates woman. Hence, woman is created after both Adam and the animals. Adam > animals > woman = chronology; one that contradicts that of Genesis 1:25-27.

"So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper fit for him.
So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh;
And the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man."
Genesis 2:19-22

* even in Genesis 2:4-7, it does NOT say that Adam was created before the animals... it's only your pre-conceived idea, my friend...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
In other words, Job 38:4-7 is figurative, because it contradicts Genesis 1:14-19.

* you are quite good at twisting what i've said... i never said that Job 38:4-7 is figurative, i just said that the "morning stars" in Job 38:7 is NOT literal stars... and the book of Job does NOT supply the narration of the story of Creation...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The meaning of “teem” is not in question, but rather the command for water to bring forth “swarms of living creatures, and birds to fly above the earth . . .”

* there is no problem for the waters to BRING FORTH swarms of living creatures and birds, so long as those beasts in the field and birds were FORMED out of the ground...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Genesis 2:4

This is the account of the heavens and the earth, in the day that the LORD God made creation.

* still, the word, "account" was preceded by a definite article "the" which denotes either singular OR plural depending on the context...

* the word, "day" was preceded too by a definite article "the"... you CANNOT refute the fact that the word "day" is only "one day" like you want to imply... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* "humanity" is NOT the gray line, disregarding the existence of God and Satan will take you nowhere...

No? Because I thought it would, strangely enough. There are people who have an image of being good - visible good, not the good that needs one to wear the label "Jesus saved me." Then there are the people who have a visible image of being bad (I won't use evil) - then there are the masses of people that are not far either way. They get up, go to work, take the kids on a holiday. They aren't concerned with questions of good and evil. They donate to charity, but "borrow" pens from the office. Neutral masses that lean more towards good. Humanity is grey. We have the potential to be consciously good, bad or just not worry either way.

* because the world itself in which the humanity dwells on is tainted with evil...

Wait, is this the world that God created as perfect... with no evil in it? Is the evil that taints it something God didn't create? To think... humanity has the power to create equal to Gods almost it seems. He creates good, we create evil. Amazing.

* and Satan himself was the self-proclaimed god of this world that the humanity dwells upon...

Yet I don't believe in Satan. He is not my god, any more then God is. If I don't recognise God you tell me I belong to Satan regardless of how I go about life. But if don't recognise Satan either... I still belong to him? So basically I am railroaded down a path that either leads to damnation or adherence to your God regardless of what I believe?

Sounds like a joke test: Now children there are no right or wrong answers but every answer but this one will see you fail.

* here lies where a person must choose...

My descendants may live if I choose God? What does that mean? If I don't I am damning my children to? And here I was thinking the sins of the father were not visited on the son.

* as i've said earlier, there is no gray lines between good and evil, life and death, blessing and curse... God had given us the recommendation -> choose life...

* one CANNOT be 50% good and 50% evil... 😉

I am not saying a person can be 50% both. I am saying it doesn't work the way you imply. It is an unpleasant claim that your not good unless your a bleiver of God. It doesn't work. Not believing in God does not make a person bad - so either they are good, or they are neutral. And the masses out there - they aren't a great deal either way. They live life, and don't think of the great good/evil debate. They aren't evil. They are usually good, but not in a Jesus way - they are people. Capable of good an evil. They are neutral until called upon to act. Will they act nobly or ignobly? Only they know. Not believing in God doesn't make them evil. And believing in God doesn't make them good.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Then why do God's children (all of us) go to Hell if we don't beleive ?

* you just cannot accept the fact that NOT all people are children of God... i have said earlier that those evil people are NOT children of God, they are of Satan's (John 8:44)...

"But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and killed, reviling in matters of which they are ignorant, will be destroyed in the same destruction with them,
Suffering wrong for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their dissipation, carousing with you.
They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!"
II Peter 2:12-14

* some people are not even humans in the sight of God, they are like animals... have you heard the news lately? there are grandfathers raping their granddaughters, children killing their parents, fathers raping their daughters, sons killing their mothers, etc... are those people children of God? nope, they are animals and children of Satan...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Eternal Torment yes...as all Christians claim, and as the Bible itself claims...that's what Hell is....ask JIA

* the hell, eternal torment, is for Satan, his angels and those people who side with him... no need to ask mr.jesusisalive...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
And your point is ?

"But to what angel has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand, till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet"?
Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?"
Hebrews 1:13-14

* that all angels are spirits...

"See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Luke 24:39

* and a spirit don't have flesh and bones...

"For they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."
Luke 20:36

* angels are spirits, don't have flesh and bones and CANNOT die... the most suitable punishment is ETERNAL torment...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You mean those who beleive...i presume....

So the non beleivers are all demons and should go to Hell ? 🤨

* Luke 20:36 is a part of my explanation above... those who will not die anymore are the people of God who resurrects from death, they will become like angels who cannot die...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[b]Eternal Torment is suitable punishment ?

This is where I think your zealot insanity comes into play.....NO ONE deserves eternal torment, no one deserves torment of ANY kind...that again shows how cruel you and your God are.... ❌ [/B]

* ✅ because you always refuse the fact that there are evil people, not all people are good... you just always blame God for something you don't even seem to understand...

* you claim all people are doomed to suffer in hell to reach a conclusion that God is evil... i just said that NOT ALL people are children of God, the Bible tells us that there are people who are children of Satan and if a child of Satan was condemned to hell, it's a very righteous judgment and NOT a cruel one...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[b]IRRELEVANT.....the fact that God possesses those emotions; wrath and jealousy- shows how FLAWED he is, implies HE IS a SINNER HIMSELF, the biggest sinner of all, and shows the hypocrisy that comes with his "majesty". How can you ignore the obvious flaw presented ? [/B]

* so, the "god" you know is incapable of anger? then, you know a different god, far different from what the Bible supplies...

"He who planted the ear, does he not hear? He who formed the eye, does he not see?"
Psalms 94:9

* plus, having God possessing those emotions does NOT make Him flawed... your true colors have shined here, you obviously blame God for something you really don't understand...

* wrath and jealousy do NOT instantly fall into a sin against God...

"Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger,
And give no opportunity to the devil."
Ephesians 4:26-27

* the question is: being a person who puts the blame on God, what do you expect of your life? and your life after death?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If God created us, then we are all his children. Even Satan is his child since God created Satan....now whether God disowns us is another story....

* with that silly logic - animals, plants, trees, insects, mountains, rivers, earth, moons, stars, clouds, etc... are ALL children of God... please make a logical argument, my friend... 😛

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
......

* you can tell me a Bible verse that supports your claim that good people in the eyes of God can be condemned to hell... tell me your proof is NOT what mr.jesusisalive had you conditioned...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If God truly wants all people to be saved, then why doesn't he accept everyone into Heaven? Why segregate his own children?

* this is the nth time, mr.friend...

"He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
John 8:47, 44

* NOT all people are children of God... but those who are not of God are of their father -> the devil...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Doesn't sound loving to me, in fact sounds quite discriminatory.....

* because you don't understand that NOT all people are children of God...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
so God don't want homosexuals, muslims, jews, buddhists, hindus, etc. in his Heaven? He don't sound loving to me.....he sounds BIAS. 🙁

* God, according to the Bible, is righteous... the Bible never condemns to hell those homosexuals, muslims, jews, buddhists, hindus, etc... in fact...

"Have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, the reign of God shall inherit.
And certain of you were these! but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were declared righteous , in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God."
I Corinthians 6:9-11

* if a person will turned from his evil works, God will forgive him and is worthy to be in heaven...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yet the Bible clearly states that those who do not beleive in Christ end up in Hell...even JIA, the zealot extraordinare, says that good people can end up in Hell....

* sorry, i will not resort in conforming my opinion with mr.jesusisalive, the Bible states that:

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.
And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done."
Revelation 20:12-13

"I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter;
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
Matthew 12:36-37

* is the judgment according to the belief of Christ? the judgment is according to what a person had said and done... so, piece of advice: be careful in your words, my friend...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So what say you...what happens to a kind hearted person who doesn't beleive in Christ.....do they go to Heaven or Hell ?

* heaven...

"For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints , as you still do."
Hebrews 6:10

* the doctrine of Christianity is not bombarded on mr.jesusisalive's shoulders, ya know... 😛

Originally posted by peejayd
* you just cannot accept the fact that NOT all people are children of God... i have said earlier that those evil people are NOT children of God, they are of Satan's (John 8:44)...

"But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and killed, reviling in matters of which they are ignorant, will be destroyed in the same destruction with them,
Suffering wrong for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their dissipation, carousing with you.
They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. [B]Accursed children!"
II Peter 2:12-14

* some people are not even humans in the sight of God, they are like animals... have you heard the news lately? there are grandfathers raping their granddaughters, children killing their parents, fathers raping their daughters, sons killing their mothers, etc... are those people children of God? nope, they are animals and children of Satan...

* the hell, eternal torment, is for Satan, his angels and those people who side with him... no need to ask mr.jesusisalive...

"But to what angel has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand, till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet"?
Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?"
Hebrews 1:13-14

* that all angels are spirits...

"See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Luke 24:39

* and a spirit don't have flesh and bones...

"For they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."
Luke 20:36

* angels are spirits, don't have flesh and bones and CANNOT die... the most suitable punishment is ETERNAL torment...

* Luke 20:36 is a part of my explanation above... those who will not die anymore are the people of God who resurrects from death, they will become like angels who cannot die...

* ✅ because you always refuse the fact that there are evil people, not all people are good... you just always blame God for something you don't even seem to understand...

* you claim all people are doomed to suffer in hell to reach a conclusion that God is evil... i just said that NOT ALL people are children of God, the Bible tells us that there are people who are children of Satan and if a child of Satan was condemned to hell, it's a very righteous judgment and NOT a cruel one...

* so, the "god" you know is incapable of anger? then, you know a different god, far different from what the Bible supplies...

"He who planted the ear, does he not hear? He who formed the eye, does he not see?"
Psalms 94:9

* plus, having God possessing those emotions does NOT make Him flawed... your true colors have shined here, you obviously blame God for something you really don't understand...

* wrath and jealousy do NOT instantly fall into a sin against God...

"Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger,
And give no opportunity to the devil."
Ephesians 4:26-27

* the question is: being a person who puts the blame on God, what do you expect of your life? and your life after death?

* with that silly logic - animals, plants, trees, insects, mountains, rivers, earth, moons, stars, clouds, etc... are ALL children of God... please make a logical argument, my friend... 😛

* you can tell me a Bible verse that supports your claim that good people in the eyes of God can be condemned to hell... tell me your proof is NOT what mr.jesusisalive had you conditioned...

* this is the nth time, mr.friend...

"He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
John 8:47, 44

* NOT all people are children of God... but those who are not of God are of their father -> the devil...

* because you don't understand that NOT all people are children of God...

* God, according to the Bible, is righteous... the Bible never condemns to hell those homosexuals, muslims, jews, buddhists, hindus, etc... in fact...

"Have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, the reign of God shall inherit.
And certain of you were these! but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were declared righteous , in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God."
I Corinthians 6:9-11

* if a person will turned from his evil works, God will forgive him and is worthy to be in heaven...

* sorry, i will not resort in conforming my opinion with mr.jesusisalive, the Bible states that:

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.
And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done."
Revelation 20:12-13

"I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter;
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
Matthew 12:36-37

* is the judgment according to the belief of Christ? the judgment is according to what a person had said and done... so, piece of advice: be careful in your words, my friend...

* heaven...

"For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints , as you still do."
Hebrews 6:10

* the doctrine of Christianity is not bombarded on mr.jesusisalive's shoulders, ya know... 😛 [/B]

Are you serious? EVERYONE IS A CHILD OF GOD. Jesus stresses that EVERY SINGLE TIME HE GETS A CHANCE.

Everyone is human, and saying otherwise is ignorance.

No, it's also for people like Buddha and Ghandi who strived to help others, but since they aren't Christian, will be tortured for enternity.

NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY PEOPLE ARE SPAWNED FROM SATAN. Stop trying to manipulate the bible.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
No? Because I thought it would, strangely enough. There are people who have an image of being good - visible good, not the good that needs one to wear the label "Jesus saved me." Then there are the people who have a visible image of being bad (I won't use evil) - then there are the masses of people that are not far either way. They get up, go to work, take the kids on a holiday. They aren't concerned with questions of good and evil. They donate to charity, but "borrow" pens from the office. Neutral masses that lean more towards good. Humanity is grey. We have the potential to be consciously good, bad or just not worry either way.

* the goodness and wickedness of a person is not visible to anyone of us because it is inside of a person...

* there are people who commit sin and transgressions against God but they are still of God...

* but there are no people who commits no sin...

"Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins ."
Ecclesiastes 7:20

* it's the persons' hearts that makes him good or evil... and even if we don't have the opportunity to know God - for example, those people who are outside the world of civilization - God has given us the opportunity to be in heaven...

"For God shows no partiality.
All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
They show that what [I]the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them,"
Romans 2:11-15[/I]

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Wait, is this the world that God created as perfect... with no evil in it? Is the evil that taints it something God didn't create? To think... humanity has the power to create equal to Gods almost it seems. He creates good, we create evil. Amazing.

"Behold, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many devices."
Eccelesiastes 7:29

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Yet I don't believe in Satan. He is not my god, any more then God is. If I don't recognise God you tell me I belong to Satan regardless of how I go about life. But if don't recognise Satan either... I still belong to him? So basically I am railroaded down a path that either leads to damnation or adherence to your God regardless of what I believe?

Sounds like a joke test: Now children there are no right or wrong answers but every answer but this one will see you fail.

* then you will fall in a category where you will be judged according to your works (Revelation 20:12-13)...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
My descendants may live if I choose God? What does that mean? If I don't I am damning my children to? And here I was thinking the sins of the father were not visited on the son.

"The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."
Ezekiel 18:20

* true, he son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father and vice-versa... the book of Deuteronomy was written for the Israelites but the essence of choosing life over death still stands...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I am not saying a person can be 50% both. I am saying it doesn't work the way you imply. It is an unpleasant claim that your not good unless your a bleiver of God. It doesn't work. Not believing in God does not make a person bad - so either they are good, or they are neutral. And the masses out there - they aren't a great deal either way. They live life, and don't think of the great good/evil debate. They aren't evil. They are usually good, but not in a Jesus way - they are people. Capable of good an evil. They are neutral until called upon to act. Will they act nobly or ignobly? Only they know. Not believing in God doesn't make them evil. And believing in God doesn't make them good.

* "not believing in God doesn't make them evil and believing in God doesn't make them good", this statement is considerable... but a good person who does NOT believe in God, still have the law of God in his heart whether he knows it or not (Romans 2:11-15)... 😉

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Are you serious? EVERYONE IS A CHILD OF GOD. Jesus stresses that EVERY SINGLE TIME HE GETS A CHANCE.

Everyone is human, and saying otherwise is ignorance.

No, it's also for people like Buddha and Ghandi who strived to help others, but since they aren't Christian, will be tortured for enternity.

NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY PEOPLE ARE SPAWNED FROM SATAN. Stop trying to manipulate the bible.

* after my long post, you still did NOT understand?

* where did i say that people are spawned from Satan? stop manipulating my post, my friend...

* read John 8:44 -> there are people who are children of Satan whether you like it or not...

* i'm not manipulating the Bible, you can read John 8:44 with your own... 😕

Originally posted by peejayd
* the goodness and wickedness of a person is not visible to anyone of us because it is inside of a person...

* there are people who commit sin and transgressions against God but they are still of God...

* but there are no people who commits no sin...

So, none of us are incapable of committing sin. But all of us are capable of being good (in a Biblical sense.) But even if we are good in a Biblical sense we can still sin. Seems awfully... grey to me. No human is white - since we will always sin. No human is black, since we can always repent.

* it's the persons' hearts that makes him good or evil... and even if we don't have the opportunity to know God - for example, those people who are outside the world of civilization - God has given us the opportunity to be in heaven...

Arguably I say it is a persons mind that makes them good or evil. They decide to be good, or bad.

"Behold, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many devices."
Eccelesiastes 7:29

So we are indeed powerful. God's creation made with no evil in it, tainted and corrupted by the power of man. Power enough to overcome God's best intentions. Powerful enough to overcome God's plan, because one assumes he planned for us to be good, because otherwise if he planned for us to possibly be bad... well that nullifies the claim he had no part in the badness.

Out of interest - where do things fall that we have no control over? Plagues, earthquakes, tsunamis and all that jazz - things that don't care for our choices - are they still our fault, or does God bear responsibility for them? And tell me - the flood that wiped out nearly all of humanity, the killing of the Egyptian first borns - are these acts good? Or are they bad? Or are they perhaps neither?

* then you will fall in a category where you will be judged according to your works (Revelation 20:12-13)...

Ah, this is what I have been getting at - that not believing in God does not automatically mean one believes of follows the devil. Being judged by ones "works" and intentions I believe is far more just.

* true, he son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father and vice-versa... the book of Deuteronomy was written for the Israelites but the essence of choosing life over death still stands...

Yet hasn't humanity inherited the sins of our propagators? Adam and Eve? And what of the cultures that existed outside the garden that didn't get to chose? Why should their sins still taint humanity? Should not we be born as Adam and Eve were initially - sinless, and let choose to consume or not consume the fruit?

* "not believing in God doesn't make them evil and believing in God doesn't make them good", this statement is considerable... but a good person who does NOT believe in God, still have the law of God in his heart whether he knows it or not (Romans 2:11-15)... 😉

Then you would consent that a person without belief can still be good and is not automatically bad?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
So, none of us are incapable of committing sin. But all of us are capable of being good (in a Biblical sense.) But even if we are good in a Biblical sense we can still sin. Seems awfully... grey to me. No human is white - since we will always sin. No human is black, since we can always repent.

* i understand your point, however, not all people who repented are forgiven, and not all people who commited sin are imputed or counted by God...

"No one born of God commits sin; for God's nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God."
I John 3:9

"We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him."
I John 5:18

"Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not reckon his sin."
Romans 4:7-8

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Arguably I say it is a persons mind that makes them good or evil. They decide to be good, or bad.

* according to the Bible, it is the heart that dictates the actions of a person, heart is more powerful than mind...

"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander."
Matthew 15:19

* if evil thoughts came from the heart, it is tantamount of saying that good thoughts also came from the heart...

"The good man out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure produces evil; for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks."
Luke 6:45

* even the words we speak came from the abundance of our hearts...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
So we are indeed powerful. God's creation made with no evil in it, tainted and corrupted by the power of man. Power enough to overcome God's best intentions. Powerful enough to overcome God's plan, because one assumes he planned for us to be good, because otherwise if he planned for us to possibly be bad... well that nullifies the claim he had no part in the badness.

* God had given us the gift of free will... if we have no free will, we are like remote-controlled robots... you see, people, sometimes we like or want things that God does not want for us because we can harm ourselves... for example:

"Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully,"
I Timothy 1:8

* a knife, for example, can help our work easier if we use it for good... but it can also be used for bad things like hurting and killing people... the same thing is the gift of free will...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Out of interest - where do things fall that we have no control over? Plagues, earthquakes, tsunamis and all that jazz - things that don't care for our choices - are they still our fault, or does God bear responsibility for them? And tell me - the flood that wiped out nearly all of humanity, the killing of the Egyptian first borns - are these acts good? Or are they bad? Or are they perhaps neither?

* i believe that God permitted the death of the Egyptians' firstborns and they are acts of good, not in human eyes but of God's... why?

"For every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child."
Hebrews 5:13

* every child and infant is innocent, and being that:

"But Jesus called them to him, saying, Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God."
Luke 18:16

* if they die, they are automatically saved... it was an act of good after all...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Ah, this is what I have been getting at - that not believing in God does not automatically mean one believes of follows the devil. Being judged by ones "works" and intentions I believe is far more just.

* because even those people who doeth good and resists evil have the law of God written in their hearts, whether they know it or not...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Yet hasn't humanity inherited the sins of our propagators? Adam and Eve? And what of the cultures that existed outside the garden that didn't get to chose? Why should their sins still taint humanity? Should not we be born as Adam and Eve were initially - sinless, and let choose to consume or not consume the fruit?

* because the earth/ground was cursed due to Adam's transgression...

"And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, You shall not eat of it, cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
Thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field.
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return."
Genesis 3:17-19

* and Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden...

"Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.
He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life."
Genesis 3:23-24

* we are all descendants of Adam and Eve, and we are not created through the dust from the ground like Adam was... if they we banished, and we are all their descendants, we also are not inside the Garden of Eden...

* and the Sin did not enter the world prior to Adam... and death follows...

"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--"
Romans 5:12

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Then you would consent that a person without belief can still be good and is not automatically bad?

* yes, according to the Bible, yes... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* i understand your point, however, not all people who repented are forgiven, and not all people who commited sin are imputed or counted by God...

So theoretically it would be possible to go through life thinking you were saved, and not be? Even if one has gone through the processes the Bible advocates?

* according to the Bible, it is the heart that dictates the actions of a person, heart is more powerful than mind...

"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander."
Matthew 15:19

* if evil thoughts came from the heart, it is tantamount of saying that good thoughts also came from the heart...

Well, since I like to think I have a least passable control over my actions I give my mind the kudos for being my motivator. My heart does nothing bu pump blood. And if it is a metaphorical "heart" - well, it is in the head. The brain is where it all goes down.

* even the words we speak came from the abundance of our hearts...

Well, once again, I have never seen any reason to think our thoughts originate anywhere other then the mind. Emotions maybe...

* i believe that God permitted the death of the Egyptians' firstborns and they are acts of good, not in human eyes but of God's... why?

"For every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child."
Hebrews 5:13

* every child and infant is innocent, and being that:

"But Jesus called them to him, saying, Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God."
Luke 18:16

* if they die, they are automatically saved... it was an act of good after all...

But is it bad for a human to kill a child even though it's soul will be on a fast track to heaven? Did God murder the Egyptian children or not?

* because even those people who doeth good and resists evil have the law of God written in their hearts, whether they know it or not...

Which implies one does not need God to be a good person.

* because the earth/ground was cursed due to Adam's transgression...

"And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, You shall not eat of it, cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
Thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field.
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return."
Genesis 3:17-19

* and Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden...

"Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.
He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life."
Genesis 3:23-24

* we are all descendants of Adam and Eve, and we are not created through the dust from the ground like Adam was... if they we banished, and we are all their descendants, we also are not inside the Garden of Eden...

* and the Sin did not enter the world prior to Adam... and death follows...

"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--"
Romans 5:12

So Adam and Eve created something in the garden independent of God, something that could doom souls and taint the entirety of creation. They created Evil. Do you think it is possible for humanity to surpass God one day?

Yes, so I and everyone else missed out on the Garden because of the actions of people I didn't even know. So we grow fundamentally damned unless we repent because of there actions. We have no choice "not to sin" because we are told we will do it no matter what - the heritage of people whose actions we had no part in.

Originally posted by mr.smiley
the bible does contradict itself.
Anyone who says different is,of course a very straight foward christian

I guess this is the PC way of saying idiot.

Idiot is pretty PC...not polite though.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
So theoretically it would be possible to go through life thinking you were saved, and not be? Even if one has gone through the processes the Bible advocates?

* who would want NOT to be saved? everyone wants to be saved... and the salvation is NOT like mr.jesusisalive was preaching...

"So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith."
Galatians 6:10

* the Bible tells us, upon every opportunity, let us do good to all men... until when?

"And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved."
Matthew 10:22

* until the end of our lives, let us do good to all men...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Well, since I like to think I have a least passable control over my actions I give my mind the kudos for being my motivator. My heart does nothing bu pump blood. And if it is a metaphorical "heart" - well, it is in the head. The brain is where it all goes down.

Well, once again, I have never seen any reason to think our thoughts originate anywhere other then the mind. Emotions maybe...

* yes, the Bible refers NOT to the literal heart that only pumps blood...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
But is it bad for a human to kill a child even though it's soul will be on a fast track to heaven? Did God murder the Egyptian children or not?

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand."
Deuteronomy 32:39

* God is not a murderer, He gave life, and He also has the power to take it back...

"The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man,
Nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything."
Acts 17:24-25

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Which implies one does not need God to be a good person.

* there are people who does not have the capacity to believe on God, like for example, those who are outside the world of civilization... but people who knew that there is a God and rejects Him, it's a different story...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
So Adam and Eve created something in the garden independent of God, something that could doom souls and taint the entirety of creation. They created Evil. Do you think it is possible for humanity to surpass God one day?

* there was Evil before Adam and Eve -> Satan... once an angel, he desired to be equal with God, Satan created evil...

"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--"
Romans 5:12

* when Adam committed sin, that's where sin came into the world of man...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Yes, so I and everyone else missed out on the Garden because of the actions of people I didn't even know. So we grow fundamentally damned unless we repent because of there actions. We have no choice "not to sin" because we are told we will do it no matter what - the heritage of people whose actions we had no part in.

* past is past... anyways, if we are saved, we will inherit a place greater and more glamorous than the Garden of Eden...

"But, as it is written, What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,"
I Corinthians 2:9

* right? 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* who would want NOT to be saved? everyone wants to be saved... and the salvation is NOT like mr.jesusisalive was preaching...

I didn't say people wouldn't want to be saved, I was just commenting on how you said not all people who repent are forgiven, so it would be possible for people to go through life assuming they had been forgiven and thus saved, and in fact not be? Or are you saying you don't need to be forgiven to be saved?

* yes, the Bible refers NOT to the literal heart that only pumps blood...

Yes, it refers to the metaphorical heart that is just another part of the mind. We don't have some ball of energy floating near us motivating us. The things that go on in the brain - that is our ideas, where our thoughts and personality dwell.

* God is not a murderer, He gave life, and He also has the power to take it back...

Yes. It is easy to be considered sinless like God when one says "no law applies to me."

God can kill the children of Egypt and it is not murder because he is God. God can flood the world and kill all but a handful on a boat, and it is not murder because it is God. God can give the Devil permission to bugger up Job's life - but that doesn't reflect on him. God can tell the Israelites to massacre the people populating Israel... but that also doesn't mean anything because this is God.

* there was Evil before Adam and Eve -> Satan... once an angel, he desired to be equal with God, Satan created evil...

The Angel God created... so does Satan have the ability to overcome God? Seeing as how he has the ability to create something that can poison God's creation despite God's good intentions.

* when Adam committed sin, that's where sin came into the world of man...

Despite the fact mankind in near total had no choice in the matter. Adam past sin on to all people - they had no choice. Like me doing something bad and that reflecting on Australians for all time to come.

* past is past... anyways, if we are saved, we will inherit a place greater and more glamorous than the Garden of Eden...

Oh yes. It is in the past. Which would make it even a more bitter pill to swallow. Humanity is still tainted by the actions of two people long ago. Tell me - why did God put temptation in the garden?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I didn't say people wouldn't want to be saved, I was just commenting on how you said not all people who repent are forgiven, so it would be possible for people to go through life assuming they had been forgiven and thus saved, and in fact not be? Or are you saying you don't need to be forgiven to be saved?

* the reason why i said that there are people who repent but not forgiven is this:

"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
And have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
If they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt."
Hebrews 6:4-6

* those people who were once been enlightened,
who have tasted the heavenly gift,
and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the goodness of the word of God,
and the powers of the age to come... they are the kinds of people that if they commit apostasy, it is impossible for them to restore again even if they repented...

* but to those people who had not yet been enlightened, all of their sins are forgiven once they repent...

"Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.
Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?
And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Acts 2:36-38

* even those people who participated in crucifying Jesus are entitled to be saved if they repent because they don't know what they've done...

"None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."
I Corinthians 2:8

* the Bible tells us that all men, even the righteous ones, commit sin... so if a person is saved, God forgave all his/her sins...

"Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years."
Revelation 20:6

* the people who will be in first resurrection are blessed and holy...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Yes, it refers to the metaphorical heart that is just another part of the mind. We don't have some ball of energy floating near us motivating us. The things that go on in the brain - that is our ideas, where our thoughts and personality dwell.

* yes, i agree that it is not the literal heart but i don't think it came from the brain...

"Wherefore we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying, yet our inward man is renewed day by day."
II Corinthians 4:16

* the Bible tells us of the outward man and the inward man... the outward man that decays is our physical body and the inward man that renews daily is the being inside...

"But let it be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable jewel of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious."
I Peter 3:4

* i believe that our ideas, thoughts and personality came from here -> the hidden person of the heart...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Yes. It is easy to be considered sinless like God when one says "no law applies to me."

* if a person consider himself to be sinless like God, this is for him:

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
I John 1:8

* and yes, no law applies to God and Christ for they are the Ones who gave the law...

"This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God."
John 5:18

* one of the grounds of the crucification of Jesus is because the Jews claimed He broke the law of Sabbath... however, they did not know that:

"Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath ."
Mark 2:28

* Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
God can kill the children of Egypt and it is not murder because he is God.

* not only because He is God, but taking the life out of children are not an act of evil but of good...

"But Jesus called them to him, saying, Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God."
Luke 18:16

* children, moreso the infants, belong to the kingdom of God...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
God can flood the world and kill all but a handful on a boat, and it is not murder because it is God.

* the world is evil and only the household of Noah remains to be of God, the flood/water is a symbol of salvation from evil...

"Who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water."
I Peter 3:20

* Noah and his household were saved THROUGH water, why?

"Do not be deceived: Bad company ruins good morals."
I Corinthians 15:33

* the flood/water helped preserved the eight persons who were obedient to God...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
God can give the Devil permission to bugger up Job's life - but that doesn't reflect on him. God can tell the Israelites to massacre the people populating Israel... but that also doesn't mean anything because this is God.

* God knows whatever happened to Job, Job will not turned his back on God, the patience and steadfastness of Job is well-known and well-appreciated...

"Behold, we call those happy who were steadfast. You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful."
James 5:11

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
The Angel God created... so does Satan have the ability to overcome God? Seeing as how he has the ability to create something that can poison God's creation despite God's good intentions.

* Satan does not have the ability to overcome God, that's why he was banished from heaven... if Satan can overcome God, Satan is now the ruler in heaven...

* humans and angels (including cherubims and seraphims and such as) are given by God the gift of free will... evil sprang out when the free will was used against the will of God... and it was the path that Satan took...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Despite the fact mankind in near total had no choice in the matter. Adam past sin on to all people - they had no choice. Like me doing something bad and that reflecting on Australians for all time to come.

* Adam's sin was not passed to all people...

"The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."
Ezekiel 18:20

* the fact that Adam was the epitome of all humanity, even if we are in the Garden of Eden now, someone will commit Adam's sin too... the safest decision was to banish humans from the Garden... anyways, if we are saved, we will not inhabit only a Garden but a Paradise...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Oh yes. It is in the past. Which would make it even a more bitter pill to swallow. Humanity is still tainted by the actions of two people long ago. Tell me - why did God put temptation in the garden?

* God did not put temptation there, Satan just went there... 😉

The Bible is full of contradictions

Originally posted by peejayd
* yes, i agree that it is not the literal heart but i don't think it came from the brain...

* i believe that our ideas, thoughts and personality came from here -> the hidden person of the heart...

Well, I like to operate with observable things - we know the brain is where it is all going on, I only have the Bible that says there is some other source of our personality.

* if a person consider himself to be sinless like God, this is for him:

I am not saying people are sinless. I am saying it is easy for people to say God is sinless when no law applies to him. It is easy to be strong when one is never challenged, it is easy to be right when no will will debate your claims. But in reality none of them are titles the individual deserve.

* and yes, no law applies to God and Christ for they are the Ones who gave the law...

And that is right? That God exists above the law? that he can tell us what to do, but he doesn't have to lead by example?

* not only because He is God, but taking the life out of children are not an act of evil but of good...

* children, moreso the infants, belong to the kingdom of God...

So is it wrong for a human to kill a child even if they think are doing the right thing?

Or once again is it a double standard - if God does something, even something horrible by human standards it is good because God did it. If a human does it, even if they think they are doing the right thing they are a monster.

* the world is evil and only the household of Noah remains to be of God, the flood/water is a symbol of salvation from evil...

* Noah and his household were saved THROUGH water, why?

* the flood/water helped preserved the eight persons who were obedient to God...

So once again God is free of any reason to be seen as having done a bad thing because the people he killed were "evil."

* God knows whatever happened to Job, Job will not turned his back on God, the patience and steadfastness of Job is well-known and well-appreciated...

Which isn't the point - what I am saying asking is that is it right God should be allowed to play with his followers like that just to prove a point? How is it 100% to say "Satan, go ahead, do your worst to Job, he will remain faithful no matter what horrors you visit on him" - this is God who Christians say reward his followers?

If God, say, chose to do the same to you, would you think "God really is good, I have proof now that he has let take everything of worth I have ever had on earth."

* Satan does not have the ability to overcome God, that's why he was banished from heaven... if Satan can overcome God, Satan is now the ruler in heaven...

* humans and angels (including cherubims and seraphims and such as) are given by God the gift of free will... evil sprang out when the free will was used against the will of God... and it was the path that Satan took...

Is biblical evil stronger then biblical good if Biblical evil can enter so completely into God's creation? That it can overcome God's best intentions? If one accepts God is not all powerful and all knowing, but that he intended and hoped for his creation to be good, then that Biblical evil is strong as it is able to penetrate past God's aspirations.

* Adam's sin was not passed to all people...

Prior to Adam eating the apple - people are not sinful. Post Adam eating the apple all humanity is sinful and we are born into it.

So where did sin come from, if not from Adam's actions?

* the fact that Adam was the epitome of all humanity, even if we are in the Garden of Eden now, someone will commit Adam's sin too... the safest decision was to banish humans from the Garden... anyways, if we are saved, we will not inhabit only a Garden but a Paradise...

And? So God is containing the damage? What would it matter if every single person on earth ate the apple? Shouldn't we at least be given the choice? Some will eat it - but would all? Either way we are denied our own choice on the subject and forced to live with the consequences of Adam and Eve's action.

* God did not put temptation there, Satan just went there... 😉

God creates the garden, God puts in the garden the two fruit trees that, if eaten from, will lead to humanity being cast out. God tells Adam and Eve not to eat from the, the serpent says eat from them, they do, the fall. How is this no putting the temptation down? Why did God put the trees there to begin with? To my knowledge parents today don't leave out rat poison and merely tell the kids "don't eat it" and then leave them to there own devices. Why were the trees there?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Well, I like to operate with observable things - we know the brain is where it is all going on, I only have the Bible that says there is some other source of our personality.

* as far as i know, the brain only recognizes the feelings we feel but it is not where the emotions came from...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I am not saying people are sinless. I am saying it is easy for people to say God is sinless when no law applies to him. It is easy to be strong when one is never challenged, it is easy to be right when no will will debate your claims. But in reality none of them are titles the individual deserve.

* i see your point, but that's the truth... nothing is above God... suppose, you are a doll-maker, there is no doll that can ever surpass its maker...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And that is right? That God exists above the law? that he can tell us what to do, but he doesn't have to lead by example?

* God can't tell us what to do, He had already given us the power of free will, He can only recommend or suggest something...

* God had sent prophets and even His Only Begotten Son to set an example...

"For I have given you an example, that you also should do as I have done to you."
John 13:15

"For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps."
I Peter 2:21

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
So is it wrong for a human to kill a child even if they think are doing the right thing?

* there is no right thing about human killing another human...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Or once again is it a double standard - if God does something, even something horrible by human standards it is good because God did it. If a human does it, even if they think they are doing the right thing they are a monster.

* that's the keyword - "human standards"... God is above that too...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
So once again God is free of any reason to be seen as having done a bad thing because the people he killed were "evil."

* not just that, but because He is God...

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand."
Deuteronomy 32:39

* the life and death is in God's hands...

"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father's will.
Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows."
Matthew 10:29, 31

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Which isn't the point - what I am saying asking is that is it right God should be allowed to play with his followers like that just to prove a point? How is it 100% to say "Satan, go ahead, do your worst to Job, he will remain faithful no matter what horrors you visit on him" - this is God who Christians say reward his followers?

* then let us read what is the reaction of the person involved...

"Then his wife said to him, Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God, and die.
But he said to her, You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips."
Job 2:9-10

* Job himself is not angry with God but hold steadfast to his faith...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
If God, say, chose to do the same to you, would you think "God really is good, I have proof now that he has let take everything of worth I have ever had on earth."

* with all honesty, my friend, if God chose to do the same to me - i would be honored...

"And the LORD said to Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?"
Job 1:8

* if God chose to do the same to me, it only means, there is none like me on earth, i am blameless and upright...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Is biblical evil stronger then biblical good if Biblical evil can enter so completely into God's creation? That it can overcome God's best intentions? If one accepts God is not all powerful and all knowing, but that he intended and hoped for his creation to be good, then that Biblical evil is strong as it is able to penetrate past God's aspirations.

* evil did not even came close to overpowering God...

"No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."
I Corinthians 10:13

* God is faithful and He will not let us be tempted beyond our strength...

"Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him."
James 1:12

* endure the trials and temptations, and God had His reward for us - the crown of life...

"And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved."
Matthew 10:22

* our salvation...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Prior to Adam eating the apple - people are not sinful. Post Adam eating the apple all humanity is sinful and we are born into it.

So where did sin come from, if not from Adam's actions?

* the first man, Adam, has the power of free will... and the free will is the power to choose between good and evil, but being the first man, Adam is very close to God, and if he had only chose to use his free will with good, there should be no problem...

"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--"
Romans 5:12

* sin exists before Adam, and that sin was commited by Satan... upon using his free will, Adam had made sin came into the world...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And? So God is containing the damage? What would it matter if every single person on earth ate the apple? Shouldn't we at least be given the choice? Some will eat it - but would all? Either way we are denied our own choice on the subject and forced to live with the consequences of Adam and Eve's action.

* i think it's God's decision, i will not question God's actions, i know it's for our own good...

"But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, Why have you made me thus?"
Romans 9:20

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
God creates the garden, God puts in the garden the two fruit trees that, if eaten from, will lead to humanity being cast out. God tells Adam and Eve not to eat from the, the serpent says eat from them, they do, the fall. How is this no putting the temptation down? Why did God put the trees there to begin with? To my knowledge parents today don't leave out rat poison and merely tell the kids "don't eat it" and then leave them to there own devices. Why were the trees there?

* there are many kinds of trees in the Garden, but not all trees have edible fruits, it would be very disobedient in the part of Adam to eat the very thing God forbids, for the Garden is full of fruit-bearing trees he can eat from... 😉

Originally posted by debbiejo
Contradictions could be a sign that the scripture was edited and tampered with...How else can you explain?

Matt. 5:22 Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
Matt. 23:17 (Jesus said) Ye fools and blind.

Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at anytime. (Ex 33:20; Tim. 6:16; John 6:46; I John 4:12)
Gen. 32:30 For I have seen god face to face. (Ex. 33:11, 23; Is. 6:1; Job 42:5)

Should we kill?
Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not commit murder.
Ex. 32:27 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, put every man his sword by his side...and slay every man his brother...companion..neighbor.(See also 1 Sam. 6:19; 15:2,3; Num. 15:36)

Ex 20:5 "...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..." (see also Ex 34:14, Deut 4:24, Josh 24:19, and Nah 1:2)
Gal 5:19-20 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are...jealousy..." (See also 2 Cor 12:20)

Should we tell lies?
Ex. 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.(Prov. 12:22; Rev. 21:8)
1 Kings 22:23 The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. (II Thess. 2:11; Josh. 2:4-6 with James 2:25)

Should we steal?
Ex. 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. (Lev. 19:13)
Ex. 3:22. And ye shall spoil the Egyptians. (Ex. 12:35-36; Luke 19:29-33)

Shall we keep the Sabbath?
Ex. 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (Ex. 31:15; Num. 15:32,36)
Is. 1:13 The new moons and the Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity. (John 5:16; Matt. 12:1-5)

Shall we make Graven images?
Ex. 20:4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven...earth...water. (Lev. 26:1)
EX. 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them.

Are we "saved" through works?
Eph. 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works. (Rom. 3:20, 28; Gal. 2:16)
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.(Matt. 19:16-21)

Should good works be seen?
Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works. (I Peter 2:12)
Matt. 6:1-4 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them...that thine alms may be in secret. (Matt. 23:5)

Should we own slaves?
Lev. 25:45-46 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy...and they shall be your posession...they shall be your bondmen forever. (Gen. 9:25; Ex. 21:2,7; Joel 3:8; Luke 12:47; Col. 3:22)
Is. 58:6 Undo the heavy burdens...break every yoke. (Matt. 23:10)

Does God change his mind?
Mal. 3:6. For I am the Lord; I change not. Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent. (Ezek. 24:14; James 1:17)
Ex. 32:14. And the Lord repented of the evil which he had thought to do unto his people. (Gen. 6:6; Jonah 3:10; Sam. 2:30-31; II Kings 20:1-6; Num. 16:20-35)

Are we punished for our parent's sins?
Ex. 20:5 For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations. (Ex. 34:7)
Ezek. 18:20 The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.

Is God good or evil?
Psa. 145:9. The Lord is good to all. (Deut. 32:4; James 1:13)
Is. 45:7 I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. (Lam 3:38; Jer. 18:11; Ezek. 20:25)

Is God Peaceable?
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. (Luke 2:14; Acts 10:36)
Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth, I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matt. 10:35-37; Luke 22:36)

Was Jesus trustworthy?
John 8:14 Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true.
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.