What if Aliens exist?

Started by inimalist25 pages

Originally posted by Alfheim
That doesnt make any sense. First of all if a monkey was infinite it would be more than just a monkey, an infinite keyboard would not be just a keyboard.

In fact if the monkey was infinite it would be everywhere and the keyboard would be everywhere. In fcat the monkey and the keyboard would be the same and the monkey and the keyboard would be everything. Infinite means without end and therefore something infinite has to be everywhere, and something infinite is everything.

there is an allegory that people use when trying to talk about the power of infinity that is exactly what you are saying about the universe.

It says that, an infinite number of monkeys typing on an infinite number of keyboards would eventually reproduce Shakespeare. The root of the argument is that, since it is infinite, every possible combination of letters must be written. I am saying that is not the case. While it is appealing to the psyche to think of infinity as infinite possibility, thats just not how it would work out. Basic probability and the fact that there is no motivation behind the keystrokes of the monkeys means that it is not absolutely true that they must reproduce Shakespeare.

Much like the universe. While I don't personally agree with an infinite universe, even if we presume that it is, that does not mean that just because the universe in infinite that every possible thing we can think of occurring has. It's not to say that it hasn't, it is just to say that whether the universe is infinite or not is not proof at all toward the existence of life other than our own.

Originally posted by inimalist
there is an allegory that people use when trying to talk about the power of infinity that is exactly what you are saying about the universe.

It says that, an infinite number of monkeys typing on an infinite number of keyboards would eventually reproduce Shakespeare. The root of the argument is that, since it is infinite, every possible combination of letters must be written. I am saying that is not the case. While it is appealing to the psyche to think of infinity as infinite possibility, thats just not how it would work out. Basic probability and the fact that there is no motivation behind the keystrokes of the monkeys means that it is not [b]absolutely true that they must reproduce Shakespeare.[/B]

Yes but the problem is that the example given is contradictory to the very defintion of infinite. Regardless of what the example says the defintion of infinite is without end, therefore when something becomes infinite it becomes everything. An infinite "something" is contradictory to the very defintion of infinity.

Furthermore it still doesnt make any sense. They are just saying that they would not create Shakespeare because they think it wont. Thats like saying that if a walk along an infinite stretch of road that I wont trip over...because it doesnt make any sense, but we know that in an infinite amount of time that I eventually will. Hell its possible for one monkey with enough time to type out a coherent sentence, we add infinite number of monkeys and now its not possible, because its not possible.

Originally posted by inimalist

Much like the universe. While I don't personally agree with an infinite universe, even if we presume that it is, that does not mean that just because the universe in infinite that every possible thing we can think of occurring has. It's not to say that it hasn't, it is just to say that whether the universe is infinite or not is not proof at all toward the existence of life other than our own.

Well you dont get something from nothing, therefore nothing doesnt exist. Therefore the universe always existed.

Originally posted by inimalist

Saying that we are the only living organisms in the universe is a pretty risky thing to say 😄

The universe is massive at an unbelievable scale and the chances that there is life out there is probably just as big 🙂

Somewhere there has to be a planet with water and an acceptable distance to a star. A plant or something has to exist out there somewhere ermm

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl
[b]Saying that we are the only living organisms in the universe is a pretty risky thing to say 😄

The universe is massive at an unbelievable scale and the chances that there is life out there is probably just as big 🙂

Somewhere there has to be a planet with water and an acceptable distance to a star. A plant or something has to exist out there somewhere ermm [/B]

Originally posted by Alfheim

Well you dont get something from nothing, therefore nothing doesnt exist. Therefore the universe always existed.

Originally posted by inimalist
[b]1) logical fallacy:

a) Argument from personal incredulity:

What you are saying is that, because it is impossible for you as an individual to imagine something happening it is not possible. You can see very quickly why this is errorous.

b) False Dichotomy:

Your choices to not cover the vast range of ideas that have been proposed to cover the origins of the universe. The junk you mention prior to these points is, at best, amateur. There IS mathematical evidence for a constant universe that creates itself and then collapses again in a cyclical motion, above is a scientific idea of a universe with no beginning where the big bang was just an event that happened because of the nothingness of the universe that preceded it. Static universes, while scientifically unpopular, are certainly still valid in philosophies that don't take materialism as the be all and end all truth of the universe.

2) The brain

Our brains are not perfect. Even in the most basic visual scenes, your brain is making HUGE generalizations and assumptions about the world around it in order to filter down the incredible ammount of stimuli information comming in at any one time. One of these automatic generalizing processes is the idea of cause and effect. Because we live in a world where everything that happens does have a very obvious cause (the level of reality where Newtonian physics hold) there is no need for our brain to have the ability to concieve of events without a cause in the classical Newtonian sense. This skill is what can lead people to believe in ghosts or other supernatural phenomena to explain events they can't understand, since our brains NEED that explanation. In fact, the more intense the effect, the more signifigant of a cause there must be, which is the root of conspiracy theories.

There are 2 major reasons for this:

a) Evolution: Since there are no "causeless" events in the environment that our anscestors came from, there would never have been a selection pressure for creatures that could comprehend causeless things. Also, it is easy to see why a creature that saw very signifigant causes in trivial events could have a higher survival hance than those who are less reactive. If every time some proto mammal heard a twig break behind it, it runs assuming it is a predator, that mammal will have a huge advantage over one that decides to investigate the sound.

b) Neuroplasticity: When a human is born, they have far more neurons in their brains than are necessary. What happens, is various sets of neurons release various hormones that allow other neurons to make the proper connections for brains to work properly. These hormones are released in response to incomming stimuli from the world around the developing child. An amazing thing to note is that, even though this process is unique to each individual, the fact that the world around us is so constant allows each of our brains to arrange themselves in VERY VERY similar ways. Again, since there are no causeless events in the world, there is no need for any neural connections to form that could interpret events without a cause. A proof of this whole thing comes from an experiment done with kittens. For the first part of the kitten's life, it was reared in an environment that lacked horizontal lines. Once the brain had finished developing, and the kitten was placed into a natural environment, they were incapable of processing horizontal stimuli. Moral of the story, if it isn't something that our brains have learned how to process from the environment they have been previously exposed to, there is no way we can immagine it.

3) How to properly understand that science is neither random nor directed:

Science by definition is not random. The idea that something "just happened" is a straw man, and I challange you to find on astronomer or astrophycist that honestly believes things in the universe, including its origin, "just happen". Science creates models to try and understand WHY things happen, saying they just do is the opposite of this. Well, then if it isn't random, clearly it is directed. No! There is no hand guiding matter or the forces of the universe. Lets put it this way, from this webstie: http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/nothing.html

"Where Do the Laws of Physics Come from?

In a series of remarkable developments in the twentieth century, elementary particle physicists, astronomers, and cosmologists have removed much of the mystery that surrounds our understanding of the physical universe. They have found that the cosmos is, on the whole, comprehensible. Of course, no one can claim to understand or explain every facet of the structure of reality. However, we now have theories--mathematical models--that describe the general character of that reality. At this writing, these theories are consistent with all observational data, including measurements of incredible precision. While they will undoubtedly be superseded by better theories as science continues to advance, the great success of current schemes makes it likely that they are on the right track. The broad picture that is drawn by modern particle physics and cosmology is very probably the way nature is, and what we have yet to learn may be expected to fit comfortably on its foundation--just as these sciences fit comfortably on the foundation of Newtonian physics.

We now have a deep and revolutionary understanding of the true nature of the mathematical quantities and theories of physics. We have realized that they are basically human inventions, including the notions of time and space. The quantities of physics are defined by how we measure them. The laws of physics are not, as usually assumed, restrictions on the behavior of matter--handed down from above or somehow built into the logical structure of the Universe. Rather, they are restrictions on the way that physicists may formulate their theories.

Of course, the theories of physics must agree with observations. But, beyond that, they are formulated in such a way as to assure that they do not depend on any particular point of view. Otherwise they cannot be expected to faithfully describe an objective reality. Stenger calls this principle point-of-view invariance, although it is known technically as gauge invariance. When this requirement is met, the most basic principles of physics, as we know them, appear naturally.

Not everything in the Universe is thereby "explained." However, the structural details of the Universe, including basic facts such as particle masses and force strengths, can be understood as following from an accidental process known as spontaneous symmetry breaking. The origin of this structure may be likened to the origin of biological structure, the combined result of tautological necessity, random chance, and even some natural selection. " [/B]

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes but the problem is that the example given is contradictory to the very defintion of infinite. Regardless of what the example says the defintion of infinite is without end, therefore when something becomes infinite it becomes everything. An infinite "something" is contradictory to the very defintion of infinity.

Furthermore it still doesnt make any sense. They are just saying that they would not create Shakespeare because they think it wont. Thats like saying that if a walk along an infinite stretch of road that I wont trip over...because it doesnt make any sense, but we know that in an infinite amount of time that I eventually will. Hell its possible for one monkey with enough time to type out a coherent sentence, we add infinite number of monkeys and now its not possible, because its not possible.

/sigh

you are arguing against a point I am not making. What I am saying is that the universe being infinite is not proof of aliens.

The reason for this because saying "the universe is infinite" (which is contrary to most astronomy) does not indicate what is occurring within that infinite space. You cannot prove that just because something is infinite that means that a result MUST happen.

Originally posted by inimalist

Well one of the things that article says is that things dont just happen, they are caused by something else.

"Science by definition is not random. The idea that something "just happened" is a straw man, and I challange you to find on astronomer or astrophycist that honestly believes things in the universe, including its origin, "just happen".

In other words for something to exist something would need to happen to create it. If nothing existed then nothing would be created and the universe would not exist, therefore something must have always existed.

Originally posted by inimalist

you are arguing against a point I am not making. What I am saying is that the universe being infinite is not proof of aliens.

Yes I know.

Originally posted by inimalist

The reason for this because saying "the universe is infinite" (which is contrary to most astronomy) does not indicate what is occurring within that infinite space.

You cannot prove that just because something is infinite that means that a result MUST happen.

Well ok, but heres the problem right. Using monkeys as an example is not a good example.

Lets see if I understand where your coming from. The reason why an infinite number of monkeys cannot write Shakespeare is because you have never seen a monkey being able to do anything close to shakespeare, correct?

Lets compare this to the universe. We know that in one place in the universe intellignet life exists, doesnt this therefore mean that if the universe is infinite that it could happen again? Its happened once why couldnt it happen twice in infinity.

Eventhough I see what your saying about the monkey example its not comparable to the universe. To make it apply you should say that there is one monkey that has written shakespeare therefore if you give an infinite number of monkeys a typewriter they will not produce Shakespeare. That would be illogical because it has happened already.

So I understand what your saying but your example does not apply to the universe.

P.S. When I mean the universe I dont just mean outer space. I mean other dimensions also. I mean everything that exists.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well one of the things that article says is that things dont just happen, they are caused by something else.

[B]"Science by definition is not random. The idea that something "just happened" is a straw man, and I challange you to find on astronomer or astrophycist that honestly believes things in the universe, including its origin, "just happen".

In other words for something to exist something would need to happen to create it. If nothing existed then nothing would be created and the universe would not exist, therefore something must have always existed.[/B]

Not an article, just something I put in another thread.

let me clarify a bit then. The origins of the universe existed in a time that a) Our brains have not evolved to be able to understand and b) our neural development has not given us the tools to comprehend. While there is probably a "cause" to the origin of the universe, it will not be in the sense as we as humans are even able to understand the word.

The story I believe is that the instability of nothingness caused something. But that is no better than saying "God did it". It is something that we may never be able to understand even if we can produce mathematics about it, much like quantum mechanics.

The point about it not being random was in reference to something I was replying to in the other thread. The false dichotomy is put up between randomness and design, when there are really other options. Its not that the universe was either designed or came from random chance, its: "the combined result of tautological necessity, random chance, and even some natural selection."

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well ok, but heres the problem right. Using monkeys as an example is not a good example.

Lets see if I understand where your coming from. The reason why an infinite number of monkeys cannot write Shakespeare is because you have never seen a monkey being able to do anything close to shakespeare, correct?

Lets compare this to the universe. We know that in one place in the universe intellignet life exists, doesnt this therefore mean that if the universe is infinite that it could happen again? Its happened once why couldnt it happen twice in infinity.

Eventhough I see what your saying about the monkey example its not comparable to the universe. To make it apply you should say that there is one monkey that has written shakespeare therefore if you give an infinite number of monkeys a typewriter they will not produce Shakespeare. That would be illogical because it has happened already.

So I understand what your saying but your example does not apply to the universe.

P.S. When I mean the universe I dont just mean outer space. I mean other dimensions also. I mean everything that exists.

here is what I am saying:

Originally posted by inimalist
saying that it is an absolute fact that aliens exist is as ignorant as saying that it is an absolute fact that they do not

which was also my first post.

Now, about the monkeys. I don't think it is impossible that they will produce Shakespeare. There is as much of a probability that they will produce something from history as there is any other combination of keystrokes where each key has the same probability of being stroked. However, just because you run it an infinite amount of times does not mean that it must be produced. Each time could produce something even with one letter difference.

So again to the universe. Even if it was infinite, that does not mean that the processes that conspired to create us have happened anywhere else.

again, infinite is not everything. 2 different words to convey different meanings.

Originally posted by inimalist
Not an article, just something I put in another thread.

let me clarify a bit then. The origins of the universe existed in a time that a) Our brains have not evolved to be able to understand and b) our neural development has not given us the tools to comprehend. While there is probably a "cause" to the origin of the universe, it will not be in the sense as we as humans are even able to understand the word.

The story I believe is that the instability of nothingness caused something. But that is no better than saying "God did it". It is something that we may never be able to understand even if we can produce mathematics about it, much like quantum mechanics.

The point about it not being random was in reference to something I was replying to in the other thread. The false dichotomy is put up between randomness and design, when there are really other options. Its not that the universe was either designed or came from random chance, its: "the combined result of tautological necessity, random chance, and even some natural selection."

Right dont see how that has anything to do with what im saying. All im saying that something creates something else. 0+0 = 0 something + something = something

Originally posted by inimalist

here is what I am saying:

which was also my first post.

Now, about the monkeys. I don't think it is impossible that they will produce Shakespeare. There is as much of a probability that they will produce something from history as there is any other combination of keystrokes where each key has the same probability of being stroked. However, just because you run it an infinite amount of times does not mean that it must be produced. Each time could produce something even with one letter difference.

So again to the universe. Even if it was infinite, that does not mean that the processes that conspired to create us have happened anywhere else.

again, infinite is not everything. 2 different words to convey different meanings.

Right so your not disagreeing with me your just saying that an infinite amount of something doesnt neccesarily mean something will happen.

Originally posted by inimalist
saying that it is an absolute fact that aliens exist is as ignorant as saying that it is an absolute fact that they do not

even if the universe is infinite, we have no idea how rare the conditions for life are, ESPECIALLY intelligent life.

/sigh

Isnt that similar to what I just said?

Originally posted by Alfheim

Right so your not disagreeing with me your just saying that an infinite amount of something doesnt [B]neccesarily mean something will happen. [/B]

😐 In other words infinite space doesnt not mean nccesarily aliens exist.

Originally posted by inimalist
/sigh

you are arguing against a point I am not making. What I am saying is that the universe being infinite is not proof of aliens.

The reason for this because saying "the universe is infinite" (which is contrary to most astronomy) does not indicate what is occurring within that infinite space. You cannot prove that just because something is infinite that means that a result MUST happen.

Thats what you said here, dont know why you're sighing now.

yes, that is what I have been saying

Originally posted by inimalist
yes, that is what I have been saying

Its a shame though even when I did understand you didnt see it at first. Ok im done b*tching.

Also I dont think I can get my head around there being an infinite space and it not being an absoulte that aliens exist. My understanding of infinity is not just in terms of space but something infinte would contain everything in it, but in terms of infinite space I guess you could argue that.

I think this comes down to how do you define infinity. I think thers might be some scientfic thoery that is everything is everywhere...maybe.

Either way, odds are we will never know.

Logically, there must be something out there, whether it is a bacteria or an alien flower. Doesn't have to be humanoid, but ya, realistically: There are other organisms in space. We think there may be some on Eurpoa, and that's just in ur solar system! And infinate space does give you infinite possibilities for life. Because in each "area" of space there is a chance of life. So if there are infinite areas, there are infinate chances at life.

Originally posted by allofyousuckkk
Either way, odds are we will never know.

Logically, there must be something out there, whether it is a bacteria or an alien flower. Doesn't have to be humanoid, but ya, realistically: There are other organisms in space. We think there may be some on Eurpoa, and that's just in ur solar system! And infinate space does give you infinite possibilities for life. Because in each "area" of space there is a chance of life. So if there are infinite areas, there are infinate chances at life.

i like this one..this has always been my "theory" so to say of the universe.. theres always possibilites. now im not ruling out a god but i must say this is my own opinion and i beleive religion was used as a way to keep people in check years and years ago but anyways back to the point aliens dont have to be humanoids or anyhting like they dont have to be "superior" in technology or knowledge but something as simple as single celled bacteria qualifies as an "alien" in my book..

Originally posted by Alfheim
Its a shame though even when I did understand you didnt see it at first. Ok im done b*tching.

Also I dont think I can get my head around there being an infinite space and it not being an absoulte that aliens exist. My understanding of infinity is not just in terms of space but something infinte would contain everything in it, but in terms of infinite space I guess you could argue that.

I think this comes down to how do you define infinity. I think thers might be some scientfic thoery that is everything is everywhere...maybe.

maybe im the only one that thinks this but if theres not infinite space there has to be an end right?? well at that end doesnt there have to something outside it? think of a box if our "universe" is a box it has ends yea but theres something outside that and something outside that something... do i make sense?

Originally posted by shaynebmxxx
maybe im the only one that thinks this but if theres not infinite space there has to be an end right?? well at that end doesnt there have to something outside it? think of a box if our "universe" is a box it has ends yea but theres something outside that and something outside that something... do i make sense?

Well yeah, there is no such thing as nothing therefore reality is infinite. When I mean the universe I really mean all existance.

I thought the universe was constantly expanding at a rate of about 2 billion miles per second? Is that just an un proven theory?

Originally posted by Magee
I thought the universe was constantly expanding at a rate of about 2 billion miles per second? Is that just an un proven theory?

Even if there was, arent there supposed to be things that exist outside the universe?

yes thats exactly my point there HAS to be something outside.. even its a massive vaccuum or something tere has to be something..hah ive always wondered.. what if were just some weird, very weird, science experiment for some aliens you know? almost like an ant farm

Originally posted by shaynebmxxx
yes thats exactly my point there HAS to be something outside.. even its a massive vaccuum or something tere has to be something..hah ive always wondered.. what if were just some weird, very weird, science experiment for some aliens you know? almost like an ant farm

Some of us probably are. But remember this, it could be argued that bacteria are inferior to us (not really, but you know what I mean) but bacteria can kill us eventhough we can mainpulate or experiment on them.

So we probably have the ability to harm gods and I think this is done by not believing in them.