Muhammad Ali or Bruce Lee?

Started by chithappens163 pages

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Exactly.

And Leo's thing about Bruce Lee chipping a jaw bone ...?
Its not that impressive and example really.

In fact last time I had to hit someone bare-knuckle there was way worse after just two short uppercutting hooks (I met him on his way in which helps).. the guy lost two teeth (admittedly, one was a crown) and he had a fractured jaw and cheekbone according to mutual former freinds.

I broke my right hand. But it was worth it in the trades. And I weighed around 10 and a half.

Also, now think of how much harder a guy or Ali's size hits. Way harder than Lee.

Lee hits at more angles. I can't understand these arguments. A boxer can never beat a bonafide martial artist without training for another sort of fighting also.

Actually it's usually the other way around.

The size/weight thing makes sense to me

but, hypothetically, what if two equally weighted people fought, one a boxer, one a martial artist. Blax, are you saying that the boxer would normally win?

I'm talking out of my bloated, bias ass really.
Boxer would still win.

lol

you convinced me

Meh.

In all seriousness, no. I think that if they were equal sized, equal weighted people then the Martial Artist would probably win.

The biggest edge Boxers have over MA's is that they're usually heavier, more durable, and more power per hit. Like tanks. I think Ali would win based purely on the fact that if he hit Bruce once he's done, which shouldn't be too hard because he's got the reach advantage, strength advantage, and his punches aren't that much slower then Bruces are. He could also probably take more shots then Bruce Lee's smaller frame could.

Originally posted by chithappens
Lee hits at more angles. I can't understand these arguments. A boxer can never beat a bonafide martial artist without training for another sort of fighting also.

Actually, once in range, the boxer has all the angles needed. I haven't seen many martial arts guards that can cope with sustained two fisted rapid combinations/multiple angles type attacks.

They seem to have little answer for the basics of jab and move either.

Depends how bonefide the boxer is.
And which art is the 'martial art' (need more than specific blanket term)

Im not world class or anything, but Ive dominated a few guys from the local karate club, who on paper should have ruled my ass by 'Martial arts being everything' logic.

They found the shock of the speed and impact of even a controlled spar overwhelming.

Oh well thats what happens when they aren't prepared for full contact with their training.

Now Im not saying martial arts is worthless, or that a few locals represent Bruce Lee in any way, but even Lee as good as he was would be smashed up and down the street all night long by Ali.
Like Blax says. The size ultimately is the decider here between two guys like this.

As good as Sugar Ray Leonard was, He never fought Tyson, because Boxing won't allow a welter to fight a heavy weight, cause that smaller guy could be the boxing equivalent of Jimi Hendrix, but he's gonna be made to orbit the moon against a same skill boxer of a bigger weight. The guy could be killed.

do NOT diss serious martial artists. in a brawl, boxing is good enough, but it is myth that boxers usually BEAT the martial artist to the punch cause martial arts are mostly show but little effectivenes. watch THIS for some perspective fools! 😛

http://youtube.com/watch?v=u0CIy9ZZEQE

http://youtube.com/watch?v=t79LvFY769o

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W8DQgr2KNmU&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wMJ_b9uV1Lo&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DrhfsGBRGhI&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=K8mEC6vJZw4&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=noPRJpFjxyw&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NrZM6JlkjFs&feature=related

weight doesnt matter. your legs are more than twice as strong as your arms with ease, and kicks have more range, albeit they are harder to execute and control. still. american styled boxing may have the advantage o combos and little hindrance, but the disadvantages include never putting your body weight into the punch concentrically as martial arts punches do{ofcourse this is the reaosn why traditional boxing punches can make teh angles they do} plus, its slow.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iRs0T7nGJq0&feature=related

ali was among the best of the best of the boxing world. if he goes up against even noticeably good martial artists like ehsan shafiq, buakaw or the gracie brothers he wud lose BIGTIME. its the problem with the nature of american boxing as opposed to ali;s own dedication to the sport.

and now, for the late great bruce.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fCqktKKPJAA

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kH6npy3bfng&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QG2M9yVJ_s8&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=O04UEUI-WWY&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=waGqMZOhSB8&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=F4hAHN1mouk&feature=related

you literally can not see his fists or kicks at times.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3HCb-xTIG7k&feature=related

I don't understand why this is a debate.

Bruce Lee wins this, no contest.

Most of the time, boxers get destroyed in free style martial art tournaments...that's why they don't fight in them too often. Boxing is simply is too linear.

does anyone know of a case where people from the two have fought?

I'm somewhat interested in this, but I need more than "oh ya! blah blah blah", "oh ya? well blah blah blah"

I do tend to think Lee has an advantage, but the size argument is very convincing. Then again, one of my favorite fights ever is Bob Sapp and Mirko Cro Cop

Originally posted by inimalist
does anyone know of a case where people from the two have fought?

I'm somewhat interested in this, but I need more than "oh ya! blah blah blah", "oh ya? well blah blah blah"

I do tend to think Lee has an advantage, but the size argument is very convincing. Then again, one of my favorite fights ever is Bob Sapp and Mirko Cro Cop

If it went to the ground, Lee would have the grappling advantage, since he's trained in that field, to a degree. But he's still only a 135 pounds, so I'm not sure how well he could handle a guy that's 8 inches taller and 80-90 pounds heavier.

If Lee is comparable to Gracie in his prime, then sure, he could man-handle a larger opponent, but there's no proof that Bruce Lee is that well skilled in grappling, as far as anyone can tell, he's predominately a striker.

So, we assume this would be a striker on striker fight; Ali has just about every advantage.

Originally posted by Robtard
So, we assume this would be a striker on striker fight; Ali has just about every advantage.

That would actually be a flawed argument. Lee is obviously that faster AND more versatile striker. I would give Ali striking power and durability ONLY...

The differences between Lee's and Ali's fist striking power should not be very much. Lee's kicking power were probably significantly more powerful than Ali's punches.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That would actually be a flawed argument. Lee is obviously that faster AND more versatile striker. I would give Ali striking power and durability ONLY...

The differences between Lee's and Ali's fist striking power should not be very much. Lee's kicking power were probably significantly more powerful than Ali's punches.

And you obviously do not understand the meaning of "just about every advantage"... let us see though.

-Speed, Power, Reach, Skill, Toughess, Weight & Height

Of those, Ali has 5 maybe 6 over Lee. Therefore, "just about" every advantage goes to Ali.

Again, that is an unknown, while kicks are generally stronger than punches, you have to factor in Ali's massive weight advantage.

Edit: And of course, Ali's [documented] ability to knock mother****ers out with just a few well placed hits.

Originally posted by inimalist
does anyone know of a case where people from the two have fought?

I'm somewhat interested in this, but I need more than "oh ya! blah blah blah", "oh ya? well blah blah blah"

I do tend to think Lee has an advantage, but the size argument is very convincing. Then again, one of my favorite fights ever is Bob Sapp and Mirko Cro Cop

That was a good fight, but I doubt Lee has the one punch KO power of Mirko, though smaller than Sapp, Mirko is still a very large man.

Originally posted by Robtard
That was a good fight, but I doubt Lee has the one punch KO power of Mirko, though smaller than Sapp, Mirko is still a very large man.

lol, I watched the fight after saying that, and my first thought was "damn, cro cop is huge."

I'd say that I doubt Ali has the same glass jaw as Sapp

Ali's jaw has been tried, tested and measured, repeatedly.

Taken form another forum and poster.

This is the myodynamics article spoken about and quoted by posters earlier in this thread, between pages 25 and 70.

Physical strength. Numerous persons have stated that Bruce Lee possessed
an incredible amount of strength. Based on his exercise program, it appears
he was of below-average lower body strength. According to the strength
training program Lee used during 1965 (Lee, 1989), he performed squats using
95 pounds with 10 repetitions. This would equate to an estimated 1 repetition
maximum (1RM) of 130 pounds (Wathen, 1994), which would place him below the
25th percentile for the 121-140 pound weight class among adult males
(Hatfield, 1993).

Quote:
Lee's upper body strength is another matter altogether and, when understood
from a sport science perspective, partially explains his on-screen appeal.
Once again, according to the program used during his 1965 stay in Hong Kong,
Lee performed bicep curls using a weight of 80 pounds and 8 repetitions. This
would equate to an estimated 1 repetition maximum of 110 pounds and would
place him in the 100th percentile for the 121-140 pound weight class.From a
training perspective, one must question how a discrepancy of this proportion,
between his upper and lower body strength, evolved in Lee's training.
Nevertheless, it demonstrates that his upper body strength was developed to
its maximum potential.

Conclusion - Below-average lower body strength, excellent upper-body strength

That really isn't that hard, I've personally have been in the 100 percentile for the three essential lifts, the squat, the deadlift, and bench. It's not that hard an obtainable feat as high school freshman can achieve that goal. Compare that to Tyson who was benching 300 pounds as a 14 year old when he was merely 170. Now strength isn't the most important aspect in fighting, but strength training CANNOT be avoided. ALL amateur, Olympic, and professional athletes use some sort of weight training be in modern times. Contrary to belief, you won't have huge muscles by strength training. Most athletes train for endurance (low weight, high reps) or strength (lots of reps, heavy weights, low reps, lots of rest in between) rather than a bodybuilding workout (which is usually 3 sets of 8-12 with 60-85% of the ORM). To get big mucles, you have to consume over 7000 calories daily, train for bodybuilding for years, have excellent genetics, have supporting bone structure, and use steroids.

Quote:
Aerobic capacity. Lee was known to advocate running as the best
cardiovascular exercise (Lee, 1975) and is reported to have run 2 miles in 15
minutes or 6 miles in 45 minutes (Storm, 1986; Lee, 1989).In either case,
this would mean an approximate pace of a 7 minute 30 second mile. This pace
equates to a VO2 max of approximately 50 ml/kg/min (Noakes, 1991). The VO2
max is a method employed by sport scientists to estimate an individual's
maximum capacity to use oxygen during extended exercise.

In contrast to Lee's estimated aerobic capacity, a Canadian research study
published in 1995 demonstrates that elite kickboxers possess a VO2 max of 62
(Zabukovec and Tiidus, 1995). In controlled laboratory measurements, elite
kickboxers had recorded values of aerobic capacity that are comparable to a
person who runs a 4:45 mile, or a 34 minute 10k foot race. It is a curious
notion, therefore, that Lee was considered to be an aerobic phenomenon.
Current elite kickboxing competitors register higher aerobic capacity than did
Bruce Lee.

I haven't taken an official VO2 test with the inclining treadmill and all that, but I run 2 miles in 11:42 (usually ~5:50 split), 3 miles sub-18 minutes, and I haven't ran 5 miles recently but I usually ran sub 7-minute splits for 5+ miles. I'm not even a professional fighter or an endurance athlete and my times aren't even that special in comparison to some of the guys I know (okay, they aren't fighters but XC/track guys) who pull in sub 16:00 3-miles. Then you look at the NCAA Division I numbers... Sub 15:00

If you look at the APFT (Army Physical Fitness Test), his 15:00 2-miler would give him a run score of 72 for the 17-21 age group (the standard age group if you want to get into special operations). On the PRT (Navy's test), if you use his 7:30 split, it would give him a score of 60. If Lee put out on the 1.5, I predict it'd give him around a 70 or so. It merely places him in the "good" category. For the 3-mile run that the USMC uses, he'd have a score of 73.

Quote:
Bruce Lee did not compete in any sanctioned martial art events. He compiled
no tournament record to demonstrate his ability as did other superstars of
his generation such as Bill Wallace, Chuck Norris, Bob Wall or Mike Stone.
Various anecdotes are reported regarding his superiority in street fights but
is that a basis of considering anyone the best of the best in their respective
sport or physical activity? Would the American public accept this reasoning
if Pete Sampras said he was the best tennis player but refused to compete in
Wimbledon? Or if Michael Jordan claimed to be the best basketball player but
would only play in alleys and playgrounds, never on the professional hardwood
court?

No doubt Lee was a badass, but it's true he has never competed. It's true that he won school yard fights on rooftops and he easily beat the extras that challenged him on the set, but beating an extra and being a heavyweight champion like Ali are two totally different things.
__________________

Taken from a poster earlier in this thread

Bruce Lee Plagiarist laughing out loud more Lee Fakery

http://www.martialdirect.com/articles/bruceleept1.htm

The Tao of Jeet Kune Do

"...It is a constant, rapid shifting of ground, seeking the slightest closing which will greatly increase the chances of hitting the opponent."

Sports Illustrated: Book of Fencing

"It is a constant rapid shifting of ground, seeking the slight closing of distance, which will greatly increase the chances of hitting the opponent."

Most JKD people are aware that Bruce Lee borrowed many ideas from western fencing, but did you know that this was an almost direct quote?

The copyright on the Sports Illustrated: Book of Fencing is 1960, 1962. It was published in 1962. Now Bruce Lee would have been in Seattle at this time and still attending Edison Technical School. It is very doubtful that Lee would have written this first. Also, Lee was still very much Wing Chun oriented in his fighting style. It was not until the late sixties that Lee coined the term "Jeet Kune Do", which we have been told consists mainly of Wing Chun, boxing, and western fencing.

Here are a couple of examples where Bruce Lee took someone else's words and either simply inserted "Jeet Kune Do" or changed it slightly to accommodate an unarmed combat art.

One that I have heard repeated many times over the years and Bruce Lee even included in a personal letter to a fan named "John", in only slightly different wording, is:

The Tao of Jeet Kune Do

"With all the training thrown to the wind, with a mind perfectly unaware of its own working, with the self vanishing nowhere, anybody knows where, the art of Jeet Kune Do attains its perfection."

Yagyu Tajima no kami Munenori (1571-1646) Japanese swordsman

"...When this is realized, with all the training thrown to the winds, with a mind perfectly unaware of its own workings, with the self vanished nowhere anybody knows, the art of swordsmanship attains its perfection and one who has it is called a meijin."

This was written over 300 years ago! It appears to be an adopted philosophy that should be credited to Yagyu Tajima no kami Munenori, not Bruce Lee.

Here is yet another passage adapted to Bruce Lee's art of Jeet Kune Do.

The Tao of Jeet Kune Do

"Approach Jeet Kune Do with the idea of mastering the will. Forget about winning and losing; forget about pride and pain. Let your opponent graze your skin and you smash his flesh; let him smash into your flesh and you fracture his bones; let him fracture your bones and you take his life! Do not be concerned with your escaping safely- lay your life before him!"

Cited in D.T. Suzuki's Zen and Japanese Culture, (copyright 1959) is a commentary note in the book called Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai that reads:

"Araki Matayemon [a great swordsman of the Tokugawa era] gave this instruction to his nephew, Watanabe Kazuma, when they were about to engage in the deadly fight with their enemy: 'Let the enemy touch your skin and you cut into his flesh; let him cut into your flesh and you pierce into his bones; let him pierce into your bones and you take his life!' "

Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai (Hagakure meaning "hidden leaves" or "hidden by leaves"😉 was written by Yamamoto Tsunetomo and first published on September 10, 1716. Again, there should be no doubt as to the original author. Bruce Lee changed the wording to suit his art, but the origins are clearly seen.

And there is another instance I'd like to mention. This is stated in the book The Warrior Within, by John Little as:

The Three Stages of Cultivation

(Bruce Lee's words)
"The first stage is the primitive stage. It is a stage of original ignorance in which a person knows nothing about the art of combat...he simply blocks and strikes instinctively..."
"The second stage- the stage of sophistication, or mechanical stage- begins when a person starts his training. He is taught the different ways of blocking, striking,...Unquestionably, he has gained the scientific knowledge of combat, but unfortunately his original self and sense of freedom are lost, and his action no longer flows by itself...his mind tends to freeze at different movements..."
"The third stage- the stage of artlessness, or spontaneous stage- occurs when, after years of serious and hard practice, the student realizes that after all, gung fu is nothing special..."

In D.T. Suzuki's book Zen and Japanese Culture, (copyright 1959) he writes about Zen as it applies to swordsmanship. Look at the remarkable similarity!

"To state it in terms of swordsmanship, the genuine beginner knows nothing about the way of holding and managing the sword...when the opponent tries to strike him, he instinctively parries it."
"But as soon as the training starts, he is taught how to handle the sword,...and many other technical tricks- which makes the mind 'stop' at various junctures. For this reason whenever he tries to strike the opponent he feels unusually hampered; [he has lost altogether the original sense of innocence and freedom]."
"But as days and years go by, as his training acquires fuller maturity, his bodily attitude and his way of managing the sword advance toward 'no-mind-ness,' which resemble the state of mind he had at the very beginning of training when he knew nothing, when he was altogether ignorant of the art. The beginning and the end thus turn into nextdoor neighbors."

Look at the similarities of the words used: Bruce Lee D.T. Suzuki
1.) blocks and strikes instinctively he instinctively parries
2.) begins when a person starts his training as soon as the training starts
3.) original self/sense of freedom original sense of innocence/freedom
4.) mind tends to freeze makes the mind 'stop'
5.) spontaneous stage "no-mind-ness"
6.) after years of serious...practice as days and years go by

This is a Zen concept of learning and can be applied to almost anything. My point is the similarity in wording. The words of Bruce Lee have been published as though the idea of the three stages were his own creation. In The Warrior Within, John Little states about Lee:

"...he drafted a fascinating philosophical treatise, which he called The Three Stages of Cultivation."

And then goes on to describe them.

Suzuki's book was published in 1959. It was a revised and enlarged version of a book published originally in 1938. Bruce Lee would not have even been born in 1938. (b. 1940) He would have just been arriving in the United States in 1959. The preface to Suzuki's revised edition is dated 1958, before Lee's arrival in the States. I think it is safe to say that Suzuki's work pre-dates Lee's.

It should become quite obvious that these examples are not the original works of Bruce Lee. They have been presented to us, the public, as though they were Bruce Lee originals, when most are only copied or adapted personal notes, with a few exceptions.

In Part 2, we will examine direct quotes taken from various sources and more borrowed philosophies of the "Little Dragon."

Bored now - keep looking for the myodynamics destruction of his weights programme and can't find it. I will soonsmile

hiyahh laughing out loud

The guy would be dangerous if he invented anything himself laughing

Originally posted by Robtard
And you obviously do not understand the meaning of "just about every advantage"... let us see though.

-Speed, Power, Reach, Skill, Toughess, Weight & Height

Of those, Ali has 5 maybe 6 over Lee. Therefore, "just about" every advantage goes to Ali.

Again, that is an unknown, while kicks are generally stronger than punches, you have to factor in Ali's massive weight advantage.

Edit: And of course, Ali's [documented] ability to knock mother****ers out with just a few well placed hits.

In your examples, noob, Lee has most of the advantages.

Speed-obviously Lee.

Power-Lee's punches are weaker...not by much. Did you watch the video with the speed bag? His legs are significantly more powerful than Ali's punches and obviously much better than Ali's legs. Since Lee uses his legs for striking often, power goes to Lee. Nee Nars. 😛

Reach-Ali has a longer punching reach. Lee has a longer kicking reach primarily because he is obviously more flexible, but also because Lee can use his skills in kicking. Since Lee uses his legs...this one goes to Lee as well. Didn't think about that, didja?

Skill-Lee...by a landslide.

Toughness-Ali. Probably not by very much.

Weight- Lee. Weird that I chose this, huh? Think about it and it will make sense. Just for the sake of evening the field...we can give this to Ali.

Height-Ali

You forgot about other categories that are important that could have done your case more justice.

Endurance- Lee...probably significantly but not by a landslide...goes back to that weight thing...heh heh. 😖hifty:

Cunning-Lee. Ali is awesome at this...however, Lee is obviously more skilled in this area because of the extreme martial arts training, preparation, and fighting done. Cunning can win a fight against a better opponent. This is a very useful fighting technique that can make a limited pool of skills more more versatile.

Heart- Ali. I don't think this is by a landslide, though.

Grappling- Lee.

So...to recap...

11 areas.

7-Lee
4-Ali

You can argue the power, weight, and reach...but I think that'd be futile considering Lee's martial arts easily play to the opponent's body. Lee could easily use Ali's height and weight advantage. Lee obviously out classes Ali in reach because of his kicking abilities.