Muhammad Ali or Bruce Lee?

Originally posted by dadudemon
In your examples, noob, Lee has most of the advantages.

Speed-obviously Lee.

Power-Lee's punches are weaker...not by much. Did you watch the video with the speed bag? His legs are significantly more powerful than Ali's punches and obviously much better than Ali's legs. Since Lee uses his legs for striking often, power goes to Lee. Nee Nars. 😛

Reach-Ali has a longer punching reach. Lee has a longer kicking reach

Physical strength. Numerous persons have stated that Bruce Lee possessed
an incredible amount of strength. Based on his exercise program, it appears
he was of below-average lower body strength. According to the strength
training program Lee used during 1965 (Lee, 1989), he performed squats using
95 pounds with 10 repetitions. This would equate to an estimated 1 repetition
maximum (1RM) of 130 pounds (Wathen, 1994), which would place him below the
25th percentile for the 121-140 pound weight class among adult males
(Hatfield, 1993).

Originally posted by dadudemon
In your examples, noob, Lee has most of the advantages.

Speed-obviously Lee.

Power-Lee's punches are weaker...not by much. Did you watch the video with the speed bag? His legs are significantly more powerful than Ali's punches and obviously much better than Ali's legs. Since Lee uses his legs for striking often, power goes to Lee. Nee Nars. 😛

Reach-Ali has a longer punching reach. Lee has a longer kicking reach primarily because he is obviously more flexible, but also because Lee can use his skills in kicking. Since Lee uses his legs...this one goes to Lee as well. Didn't think about that, didja?

Skill-Lee...by a landslide.

Toughness-Ali. Probably not by very much.

Weight- Lee. Weird that I chose this, huh? Think about it and it will make sense. Just for the sake of evening the field...we can give this to Ali.

Height-Ali

You forgot about other categories that are important that could have done your case more justice.

Endurance- Lee...probably significantly but not by a landslide...goes back to that weight thing...heh heh. 😖hifty:

Cunning-Lee. Ali is awesome at this...however, Lee is obviously more skilled in this area because of the extreme martial arts training, preparation, and fighting done. Cunning can win a fight against a better opponent. This is a very useful fighting technique that can make a limited pool of skills more more versatile.

Heart- Ali. I don't think this is by a landslide, though.

Grappling- Lee.

So...to recap...

11 areas.

7-Lee
4-Ali

You can argue the power, weight, and reach...but I think that'd be futile considering Lee's martial arts easily play to the opponent's body. Lee could easily use Ali's height and weight advantage. Lee obviously out classes Ali in reach because of his kicking abilities.

and also pressure points and groin shots?

Lee with a swift kick to the balls or a kick or chop to a pressure point.

Originally posted by ScarletSpeed
and also pressure points and groin shots?

Lee with a swift kick to the balls or a kick or chop to a pressure point.

Please tell me about a fight Lee had. A recorded one outside of the Karate exhibition one which was nothing like on the film Dragon.

Ali 53 wins

Lee 0 recorded

Ali fought Inoki in an MMA style exhibition fight

Lee did not

why did you reply to my post with this crap? you quoted me but addressed nothing I said?

Bruce Lee did not compete in any sanctioned martial art events. He compiled
no tournament record to demonstrate his ability as did other superstars of
his generation such as Bill Wallace, Chuck Norris, Bob Wall or Mike Stone.
Various anecdotes are reported regarding his superiority in street fights but
is that a basis of considering anyone the best of the best in their respective
sport or physical activity? Would the American public accept this reasoning
if Pete Sampras said he was the best tennis player but refused to compete in
Wimbledon? Or if Michael Jordan claimed to be the best basketball player but
would only play in alleys and playgrounds, never on the professional hardwood
court?

More on Lee.....

For better or worse, Lee escaped objective evaluation.
It's tremendously subjective but Bruce Lee is arguably considered the most noteworthy martial artist due to his magnetism on film. Regardless of any opinion about his actual martial art talent, or lack of empirical
demonstration regarding his ability, he expressed himself on the screen in a manner that no martial artist has equaled. And, by combining his upper body strength and light body weight, he possessed uncanny speed that visually made believers of anyone who saw him in action.

Reassessing the Usefulness of the Bruce Lee Myth
In one sense, Lee is forever a tremendous asset to the martial art community as his image and myth draws people to the arts. These fledgling martial artists may then be retained for more noble and enduring reasons than a desire to emulate someone whose example is questionable upon closer examination.
Once a martial artist reviews the reality of Lee's strength, aerobic capacity and personal character, a sober question must be addressed: should Lee's myth be actively deconstructed among novice martial artists? Perhaps not. That may be a function of maturity and be better emphasized in the later stages of training and spiritual development within the arts. Instead, people need a visual image to connect to and, until they begin to see their own selves in growing competency, may need the myth of Bruce Lee to sustain their training efforts.

References

Lee, Linda (1989). The Bruce Lee Story. Ohara Publications, California. (70)

Wathen, Dan (1994). Load Assignment. In Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning. Human Kinetics, Illinois. (436)

Hatfield, Fredrick C., Ph. D. (1993). Fitness: The Complete Guide. International Sport Sciences Association, California. (119) .

Allerheiligen, William B. (1994). Speed Development and Plyometric Training. In Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning. Human Kinetics, Illinois. (321)

Lee, Bruce (1975). Tao of Jeet Kune Do. Ohara, Burbank, California. ( )

Storm, Mitch; Black Belt Magazine, The Editors (1986). The Legendary Bruce Lee. Ohara, Burbank, CA. (53)

Lee, Linda (1989). The Bruce Lee Story. Ohara Publications, California. (54)

Noakes, Timothy, M.D. (1991). The Lore of Running. Leisure Press, Champaign, Illinois. (42)

Tiidus, Peter M.; Zabukovec, Randy (1995). "Physiological and Anthropometric Profile of Elite Kickboxers". Journal of Strength and Conditioning research, (November) 240-242.

Funakoshi, Gichin (1975). Karate-Do: My Way of Life. Kodansha International, Tokyo, Japan. (102)

Beeckler, Tom (1996). Unsettled Matters: The Life and Death of Bruce Lee. Gilderoy Publications, Lompoc, California. (144; 182)

ABOUT THE AUTHOR: In addition to the martial arts, Mr. Hess is a licensed cycling coach who regularly works with successful endurance athletes with tiny vertical jumps. He is the author of Total Quality Martial Arts: Pathways to Continuous Improvement

Originally posted by dadudemon
In your examples, noob, Lee has most of the advantages.

Speed-obviously Lee.

Power-Lee's punches are weaker...not by much. Did you watch the video with the speed bag? His legs are significantly more powerful than Ali's punches and obviously much better than Ali's legs. Since Lee uses his legs for striking often, power goes to Lee. Nee Nars. 😛

Reach-Ali has a longer punching reach. Lee has a longer kicking reach primarily because he is obviously more flexible, but also because Lee can use his skills in kicking. Since Lee uses his legs...this one goes to Lee as well. Didn't think about that, didja?

Skill-Lee...by a landslide.

Toughness-Ali. Probably not by very much.

Weight- Lee. Weird that I chose this, huh? Think about it and it will make sense. Just for the sake of evening the field...we can give this to Ali.

Height-Ali

You forgot about other categories that are important that could have done your case more justice.

Endurance- Lee...probably significantly but not by a landslide...goes back to that weight thing...heh heh. 😖hifty:

Cunning-Lee. Ali is awesome at this...however, Lee is obviously more skilled in this area because of the extreme martial arts training, preparation, and fighting done. Cunning can win a fight against a better opponent. This is a very useful fighting technique that can make a limited pool of skills more more versatile.

Heart- Ali. I don't think this is by a landslide, though.

Grappling- Lee.

So...to recap...

11 areas.

7-Lee
4-Ali

You can argue the power, weight, and reach...but I think that'd be futile considering Lee's martial arts easily play to the opponent's body. Lee could easily use Ali's height and weight advantage. Lee obviously out classes Ali in reach because of his kicking abilities.

In your fantasy world were Lee's impressive abilities to do push-ups on one finger and were are the hearsay feats translate to real-time fighting ability, sure, Lee wins.

In the real world though, Ali is tested fighter, over and over and over again. Lee is just a guy in extremely good shape who did some kickass movies.

Ok,
I'm tired of all the retardation going on in this thread about Bruce Lee.
Lets look at the facts and find out what makes him so great.
Some people say he could punch through phonebooks and do a one-inch punch and knock someone back 20 feet. Fact: there is videotape footage of him demonstrating his 1-inch punch at a karate tournament. He has a guy standing flat-footed with a chair about 5 feet behind him. He hits the guy and the guy falls back into the chair. Big deal. I could head-butt, knee, elbow, punch, or kick someone that far and I have before.
You claim that Bruce Lee was a great fighter, if not one of the greatest ever and some have said that he could easily beat todays top fighters.....the men of No Holds Barred competition like Royce Gracie, Ken Shamrock, or Sakuraba.
fact: There is no documented footage of Bruce Lee ever being in a fight. There are a few eyewitnesses who saw him fight another chinese guy at his Kwoon and the results were unanimous... neither of the fighters was able to finish the other one off.
His Wing Chun brothers claim he got in brawls in Hong Kong, but it was with other punk kids in the back alleys of Hong Kong when Lee was skipping school or was out causing trouble.
When asked if he would fight any of the top full-contact Karate guys of his time, Lee always mumbled something about not being ready, or that he was working on some new technique.
fact: We have all been in brawls in high school, does that make us the worlds best fighters?
Also, Judo Gene Lebell easily put lee in a submission hold and treated him like a rag doll. People witnessed this event. At the time Gene Lebell was around 15 years or so older than Bruce Lee. Imagine what a guy like Sakuraba or Ken Shamrock could do to Lee if both were in their primes.

And lastly you say he was a great actor and Kung Fu movie star.
Fact: His acting sucked. He never won an academy award or any type of recognition for his acting for that matter. But I give you this, he was one hell of a Kung Fu star and his movies rock! He was also a great martial artist and innovator, and his JKD will probably live on forever

These are all posts from one member earlier in this thread.

Originally posted by Robtard
In your fantasy world were Lee's impressive abilities to do push-ups on one finger and were are the hearsay feats translate to real-time fighting ability, sure, Lee wins.

I scoff at your comment.

BAH!

Originally posted by Robtard
In the real world though, Ali is tested fighter, over and over and over again. Lee is just a guy in extremely good shape who did some kickass movies.

I agree here.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I scoff at your comment.

BAH!

I agree here.

I'm glad you finally jumped off the Bruce Lee fantasy-wagon and you agree that Lee would only win in a fight against Ali if it were in a martil arts movie with Bruce as the star. Logic prevails, finally.

You did make me chuckle with your silly assessment of Lee/Ali's "heart" and "cunning" abilities, i.e. things no one really knows.

You giving Lee the up on "skill" and by a landslide, was rediculous. Ali is a multiple world champion; that takes skill... what has Lee done?

The more I think about it and actually listen to what Robtard is saying the more I am leaning towards the side of Butterflies and Bees

Scarlet

I'm a Lee fanboy... but in reality, the majority of Lee's abilities are hearsay. What he does looks absolutely stunning in a movie, but would it translate to real fighting/kickass ability? Not against an opponent of Ali's caliber, imo.

Originally posted by Robtard
Scarlet

I'm a Lee fanboy... but in reality, the majority of Lee's abilities are hearsay. What he does looks absolutely stunning in a movie, but would it translate to real fighting/kickass ability? Not against an opponent of Ali's caliber, imo.

Yeah that's what I had never thought about before, you just see the speed and power and how awesome Lee makes it look and think well who could beat him?... as someone who has done boxing his full life (up until last year), I just couldn't imagine trying to defend myself against someone as fast, agile and as powerful as Lee, especially when he uses his infamous side kick, but then again I am not Ali am I 😂, Ali is my favourite boxer of all time, I don't think I gave him enough credit though.

I still think it would be an awesome fight though?😂

Originally posted by Robtard
I'm glad you finally jumped off the Bruce Lee fantasy-wagon and you agree that Lee would only win in a fight against Ali if it were in a martil arts movie with Bruce as the star. Logic prevails, finally.

You did make me chuckle with your silly assessment of Lee/Ali's "heart" and "cunning" abilities, i.e. things no one really knows.

You giving Lee the up on "skill" and by a landslide, was rediculous. Ali is a multiple world champion; that takes skill... what has Lee done?

I didn't. I was just agreeing that Ali's "feats" are much more numerous and tangible than the "feats" done in movies.

Lee DID compete, btw. He was pretty good, from what I "hear". 😖hifty:

We know that Ali had what is known by some people in the boxing community as "heart" or "will power" to get through a grueling match. That IS a benefit to a good fighter. Some people give up or just don't have what it takes to keep putting in the effort. I would think his fight with George Foreman testifies to Ali's "heart". Don't mock me because you are ignorant.

Also, "cunning" is VERY important. Talk to any high level martial artist who has plenty of match experience. Cunning can help a person with lesser physical ability (i.e. speed, strength) overcome an opponent with a higher physical ability. Major duh. Do you know much about martial arts?

And if you think that Bruce Lee is lesser in "skill" than Ali, you are an idiot. Bruce Lee studied and practiced many forms of martial arts for hours everyday. Do you honestly think Ali did that?

When I was a boy, I had a poster of Ali on my wall for several years. I thought and STILL think he was wicked bad ass. Doesn't mean that I am blind in my fanboyism to think he could compete with expert MMAist. It would seem that we are in opposite spectrums. You the Lee fanboy, myself the Ali fanboy...weird how we take think it illogical that the other could beat our professed victor...

Now I don't know what to think 😂

Originally posted by ScarletSpeed
Now I don't know what to think 😂

Bruce Lee also tried boxing. I think he won his bouts if I am not mistaken. One would think that if he had experience with boxing, one as intelligent as Lee would be able to easily come up with a game plan for those powerful punches from Ali.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I didn't. I was just agreeing that Ali's "feats" are much more numerous and tangible than the "feats" done in movies.

Lee DID compete, btw. He was pretty good, from what I "hear". 😖hifty:

We know that Ali had what is known by some people in the boxing community as "heart" or "will power" to get through a grueling match. That IS a benefit to a good fighter. Some people give up or just don't have what it takes to keep putting in the effort. I would think his fight with George Foreman testifies to Ali's "heart". Don't mock me because you are ignorant.

Also, "cunning" is VERY important. Talk to any high level martial artist who has plenty of match experience. Cunning can help a person with lesser physical ability (i.e. speed, strength) overcome an opponent with a higher physical ability. Major duh. Do you know much about martial arts?

And if you think that Bruce Lee is lesser in "skill" than Ali, you are an idiot. Bruce Lee studied and practiced many forms of martial arts for hours everyday. Do you honestly think Ali did that?

When I was a boy, I had a poster of Ali on my wall for several years. I thought and STILL think he was wicked bad ass. Doesn't mean that I am blind in my fanboyism to think he could compete with expert MMAist. It would seem that we are in opposite spectrums. You the Lee fanboy, myself the Ali fanboy...weird how we take think it illogical that the other could beat our professed victor...

Moronic till the bitter end, eh? I understand what you meant by "heart" and "cunning" in regards to fighting, what was ridiculous was how you took it upon yourself to measure these two things concerning people you don't know. But yea, Ali had a "heart" rating of 9.7, while Lee's was only a 8.5. You can pretend to see what I did there, but let me tell you it was pure sarcasm.

Considering what is factually known about Ali and what is factually known about Lee, yes, I do think Ali is a better skilled fighter. So who's the idiot taking guesses based off assumptions?

Bruce lee would get his ass handed and re-handed back in current MMA fights. Guys like Liddell, Hughes, Coutre, Griffon, St Pierre etc. etc. etc. would curb-stomp lee.

Straight from Wiki with citations.

Physical feats

Lee's phenomenal fitness meant he was capable of performing many exceptional physical feats.[44][45][46][47] The following list includes some of the physical feats that are documented and supported by reliable sources.

* Lee's striking speed from three feet with his hands down by his side reached five hundredths of a second.[48]
* Lee could spring a 235 lb (107 kg) opponent 15 feet (4.6 metres) away with a 1 inch punch.[47]
* Lee's combat movements were at times too fast to be captured on film at 24fps, so many scenes were shot in 32fps to put Lee in slow motion. Normally martial arts films are sped up.[49][50][51]
* In a speed demonstration, Lee could snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind.[52]
* Lee could perform push ups using only his thumbs[40][47]
* Lee would hold an elevated v-sit position for 30 minutes or longer.[46]
* Lee could throw grains of rice up into the air and then catch them in mid-flight using chopsticks.[40]
* Lee performed one-hand push-ups using only the thumb and index finger[47][53][40][47]
* Lee performed 50 reps of one-arm chin-ups.[54]
* From a standing position, Lee could hold a 125 lb (57 kg) barbell straight out. [46][40]
* Lee could break wooden boards 6 inches (15 cm) thick.[55]
* Lee performed a side kick while training with James Coburn and broke a 150-lb (68 kg) punching bag[46][56]
* Lee could cause a 300-lb (136 kg) bag to fly towards and thump the ceiling with a side kick.[47]
* In a move that has been dubbed "Dragon Flag", Lee could perform leg lifts with only his shoulder blades resting on the edge of a bench and suspend his legs and torso perfectly horizontal midair.[57]
* Lee could thrust his fingers through unopened steel cans of Coca-Cola, at a time before cans were made of the softer aluminum metal.[58]
* Lee could use one finger to leave dramatic indentations on pine wood.[58]

Originally posted by dadudemon
Bruce Lee also tried boxing. I think he won his bouts if I am not mistaken. One would think that if he had experience with boxing, one as intelligent as Lee would be able to easily come up with a game plan for those powerful punches from Ali.

I hear a lot of "I heard", "I think", "if I'm not mistaken" in regards to Lee... instead of claiming what he can do, why don't you show what he factually did do.