Originally posted by Illustrious
Emperor Revan, I appreciate an individual that can actually debate with logic, but some of the points you attempt to use to undermine Ragnos' power is laughable, at best.That is bull and you know it.
So BECAUSE we know of a WWII veteran's exploits means he would win 99.9% of the time in a hand to hand fight with an Ancient Spartan?
That's hardly true. We ONLY know, in detail, about Revan's exploits. That doesn't give him a "99.9% chance" to beat Ragnos, who is an unknown quantity. It only shows that REVAN was the most powerful OF HIS TIME, while RAGNOS was the most powerful OF HIS TIME.
You try to compare eras all you want from this, extrapolate all the details, but don't tell me that Revan can beat Ragnos "99.9%" of the time BECAUSE we know of his exploits.
[b]Knowing
about someone's exploits doesn't affect their ability to beat each other down with sabers.Hardly comparable.
Kun absorbed the whole Massassi race in order to empower his spirit.
After he was disenbodied from Kyp, he STILL had the power to FORCE GRIP padawans.
Ragnos? You can say his spirit wasn't quite empowered, he couldn't even exist outside of Tavion's body.
Besides, how does spirit show anything about the power of a Jedi?
QuiGon was the first to discover/rediscover how to make yourself immortal by being one with the force, does that mean he was a superior Jedi Master to ALL those former masters that couldn't do the same IN LIFE? Hardly.
You're again trying to compare the incomparable with the limited logic you have.
When did Tavio become a "Dark Jedi Master"?
She was an APPRENTICE to Desann just earlier in JK2, she wasn't even a "Dark Jedi" in that game, yet she somehow, probably through self-promotion becomes a "Dark Jedi Master". Right...
I'm not saying it's NOT possible that Revan is the most powerful, but you can't say BECAUSE we know of his exploits, he is greater than Marka Ragnos, who is CONSIDERED to be the greatest Sith Lord ever. That's logicl fallacy, and NOT valid in an argument.
It's not a lead at all. Pall's spirit was pathetic, does that mean he was a weakling? Uncertain. Spirit strength has unknown correlation to their ability as a Jedi/Sith, otherwise QuiGon could be considered one of the best Jedi's ever, I doubt that.
You can argue/spin facts all you want, Emperor Revan, but the fact remains:
You are trying to use unknown facts and faulty connections to try to "prove" your favorite character is greater than the character that is considered to be the "greatest" Sith Lord ever.
What is that I smell? Dare I say fanboyism?
The argument is simple:
[list=1]Why Ragnos can be considered for the top spot based on what we DO KNOW.
[*]He was a half-breed. Sith's hate half-breeds. And the only thing that Sith's are better at than killing Jedi are... well... Killing other Siths!
[*]He reigned unquestioned for over a century. I dare you to find me another Sith that did just that. It's not saying he's not the greatest fighter, but he was definitely the greatest Sith LEADER. Arguing against this would be like saying Louis XIV wasn't the best French King.
[*]Naga Sadow would piss his pants as soon as look at him. Ragnos has so much influence and power over Sadow, who was no weakling in his own right, that Sadow would sit calmly in the shadows. The second Ragnos DIES though, Sadow suddenly becomes empowers and challenges for the supreme rank. Ironic? Only if you consider Ragnos a weakling.
[*]It was Ragnos' spirit that told Sadow to stop fighting, and even his spirit scared the piss out of him.
[*]Ragnos crowned Exar the Sith Lord, and Ulic the apprentice.
[*]Ragnos' Sith Scepter has the ability to drain the force from PLANETS. You'd have to assume the individual that could properly (and I doubt pansy Tavion could) would possess immense power.
[*]The Sith were truly an EMPIRE at that time. None of the pansy rising up crap that the early Sith had to deal with. None of the Sith that eradicated themselves that Bane had to deal with. It was in this HEIGHTENED empire that RAGNOS ruled unquestioned. Arguing against this would effectively be saying that the Five Good Emperors during Pax Romana aren't good leaders, that's bull.
[/list=1]Does this list MEAN that Ragnos was the best?
No.
It doesn't prove a thing. But then again, none of these lists prove a thing.
This just shows that you SHOULDN'T use something that you DON'T know to count against him.
We are FULLY unaware of his powers. You argue that you shouldn't rank him high because of his powers. He deserves to be ranked high solely off reputation. You're DOCKING him for being an unknown quantity, which may I add, is definitely logical fallacy. [/B]
I just barely read your post so I am responding to it immediately. I thank you for calling me a good debater but this is not fanboyism and it never has been. Otherwise I would think Maul is the third most powerful being ever which he sure as hell isn't.
I'm not even gonna touch that Desann thing, seems irrelevant to the Ragnos situation.
When I said the 99.9% chance I was saying something about Revan beating unknown characters or something I don't even remember, NOT Ragnos. (Or if it was, it was a typo.)
Now you said something like Ragnos is considered to be the greatest Sith ever, and I was trying to show Revan was more powerful or somesuch. Anyway, Wikipedia directly says that Lord Revan is "Thought by many to be the most powerful Sith lord of all time" and yet it says little (surprise, surprise) about Ragnos. So it's not just me, it's many.
Now Kun absorbed the whole Massassi race, but Tavion filled Ragnos to full power with Force energy so it seems like a moot point. Ragnos proved weaker even in a Force user and with a Sith sword than a Jedi knight. Now I compare their spirits because it's the largest piece of information we have on Ragnos.
As for Tavion being a Dark Jedi master, she did throw Kyle against a pillar with Force push, has mastered Force lightning, etc. I don't think she is as powerful as Jerec, or even Desann but she is quite powerful none-the-less and has her own apprentice.
Now spirits represent the power of their old selves, except much weaker. Naturally if someone's spirit is stronger than another's spirit, that first one would be stronger in their normal physical body than the other.
1. Who said they hated half-breeds? none of the sites I have seen information on Ragnos mentioned that at all, I've only heard it here...
2. He reigned for a century. By that time, he would have so many supporters that trying to oppose Ragnos in any way would be suicide. Yoda was the strongest Jedi council member for 700 years or longer, 7 times that of Ragnos, yet he isn't considered to be a god by fanboys (not including you).
3. Sadow was a coward who always tried to run from a fight, even against Ludo Kressh. It's no surprise he feared Ragnos. And why would he try and kill Ragnos when he could simply wait for him to die and let every Sith join under him instead of try and kill him?
4. Sadow formulated a plan right after Ragnos said that, there was no need for him to continue fighting Kressh.
5. So? He also thought they would restore the Sith empire or something and that didn't happen.
6. So his scepter was good, woo hoo. Anyone could use it.
7. An Empire? If they were so powerful than why not take over the Republic? Revan basically did it. Ragnos ruled over Sith who were too busy fighting each other and this was just one planet. Revan had the galaxy at his feet, with every Sith and Jedi in the galaxy fearing him or already slain by him. And that numbered in the thousands. Ragnos thought it was impossible to conquer the galaxy yet Revan basically did it.
8. Ragnos sat on his butt for 100 years so his power would naturally have grown weaker.
So know I ask, what does Ragnos have that Revan doesn't?
Number of enemies killed? No.
Any powerful enemies he killed? No.
Was he scared of trying to conquer the galaxy yet Revan did it? Yes.
Does Ragnos have more Sith knowledge? No.
Did Ragnos do anything off planet? No.
Does Lord Revan have amazing accomplishments and high praise from people of his time while Ragnos does not? Yes.
A more powerful display of power? No.
Anything at all? Not that I can think of.
I'm not even gonna touch that Desann thing, seems irrelevant to the Ragnos situation.
It is relevant. Do you know why?
Because you're attempting to draw conclusions from ONE video game, mainly JK:A, but you're completely ingoring the conclusions you can draw from another video game of that same mold and series. This is logical fallacy at its best.
Now you said something like Ragnos is considered to be the greatest Sith ever, and I was trying to show Revan was more powerful or somesuch. Anyway, Wikipedia directly says that Lord Revan is "Thought by many to be the most powerful Sith lord of all time" and yet it says little (surprise, surprise) about Ragnos. So it's not just me, it's many.
Wikipedia is FAN entry. There is mention in games and SW universe SOURCES where it is believed Ragnos is the "greatest" Sith Lord. How this translates to power, we are unsure.
Now Kun absorbed the whole Massassi race, but Tavion filled Ragnos to full power with Force energy so it seems like a moot point. Ragnos proved weaker even in a Force user and with a Sith sword than a Jedi knight. Now I compare their spirits because it's the largest piece of information we have on Ragnos.
Did she fill Ragnos to "full power"?
If he did, how come he could only exist within Tavion's body? If you noticed, even after they disspelled Kun from Kyp's body, he could still maintain sentience and existence OUTSIDE of his body. I do not believe that Ragnos was at full spiritual power because the minute you defeat Tavion (who was already beaten at the time), he shriveled back into his sarcophagus.
As for Tavion being a Dark Jedi master, she did throw Kyle against a pillar with Force push, has mastered Force lightning, etc. I don't think she is as powerful as Jerec, or even Desann but she is quite powerful none-the-less and has her own apprentice.
So she is relatively powerful.
Thanks for making my point for me. Jaden could not have been that weak if she could defeat a rather powerful "Dark Jedi Master".
Also, Ragnos infused an already beaten up body, it's like trying to win a race while wearing plutonium plate armor, you try that.
Now spirits represent the power of their old selves, except much weaker. Naturally if someone's spirit is stronger than another's spirit, that first one would be stronger in their normal physical body than the other.
Where is this mentioned in canon?
Ragnos' spirit is older than Kun's, his power has dissipated more. Kun absorbed the ENTIRE Massassi race. His spirit could live OUTSIDE of a human source, Ragnos had not replenished enough to do that. I think that's telling in and of itself.
1. Who said they hated half-breeds? none of the sites I have seen information on Ragnos mentioned that at all, I've only heard it here...
I believe it was from the same source where they mentioned Naga Sadow, I'll have to check with this again.
2. He reigned for a century. By that time, he would have so many supporters that trying to oppose Ragnos in any way would be suicide. Yoda was the strongest Jedi council member for 700 years or longer, 7 times that of Ragnos, yet he isn't considered to be a god by fanboys (not including you).
The Sith and Jedi are clearly not the same. Also we have no idea that Yoda HAS reigned for specifically, 700 years.
We estimate that ballpark because he has been a Jedi for a long time, and has lived an extremely long duration. But being the LEADER of all Jedi for 700 years is an assumption.
You are ALSO assuming he has developed enough followers to make any opposition fruitless. This isn't necessarily true. A plot for a coup can, and historically HAS, taken place during ANY period of a regent's reign. To be honest, there is a certain quota or limiting factor for any amount of influence or supporters.
You're basing your argument on ASSUMPTION, not factual evidence.
3. Sadow was a coward who always tried to run from a fight, even against Ludo Kressh. It's no surprise he feared Ragnos. And why would he try and kill Ragnos when he could simply wait for him to die and let every Sith join under him instead of try and kill him?
But they didn't just join under him, did he? He had to deal with a schism between him and Ludo Kressh. Only after Ludo was deposed of, was he able to become the 10th Lord of the Sith.
4. Sadow formulated a plan right after Ragnos said that, there was no need for him to continue fighting Kressh.5. So? He also thought they would restore the Sith empire or something and that didn't happen.
Clearly these two points prove his influence over everyone else, if nothing else. Now last I checked, Sith aren't exactly the most loyal and abiding individuals, are they?
6. So his scepter was good, woo hoo. Anyone could use it.
You go make a scepter like that, ok?
Way to ignore points presented towards you and act like you conquered them. If I see any more displays of logical fallacy, I don't even want to debate a point with you.
Clearly since he created a scepter that could absorb force from PLANETS, and no one else that we know of could, it certainly shows a level of ingenuity and ability.
7. An Empire? If they were so powerful than why not take over the Republic? Revan basically did it. Ragnos ruled over Sith who were too busy fighting each other and this was just one planet. Revan had the galaxy at his feet, with every Sith and Jedi in the galaxy fearing him or already slain by him. And that numbered in the thousands. Ragnos thought it was impossible to conquer the galaxy yet Revan basically did it.
And how long did this "empire" last?
Sidious made an "empire", but I don't see you saying he was the greatest Sith ever. Nice contradiction in terminus there. What is this? Some quid pro quo? Your logic appeals to authority, but doesn't actually present facts. STICK TO THE ARGUMENT, and stop using logical fallacy.
8. Ragnos sat on his butt for 100 years so his power would naturally have grown weaker.
You don't KNOW this. You are ASSUMING this. and you should stop it, because to ASS-U-ME doesn't prove anything.
Number of enemies killed? No.
Any powerful enemies he killed? No.
Was he scared of trying to conquer the galaxy yet Revan did it? Yes.
Does Ragnos have more Sith knowledge? No.
Did Ragnos do anything off planet? No.
Does Lord Revan have amazing accomplishments and high praise from people of his time while Ragnos does not? Yes.
A more powerful display of power? No.
Anything at all? Not that I can think of.
What do you mean "no" and "yes"?
Do you really want me to defeat each and every point for you?
Sure, I'll do just that:
Number of enemies killed? No.
Does it ever mention this? No.
So you can't just say, "Revan killed more people because we KNOW of what he's done."
Any powerful enemies he killed? No.
Again, do you know of this? No.
Was he scared of trying to conquer the galaxy yet Revan did it? Yes.
He acknowledged that conquering the galaxy would have decimated his empire, sure, if you want to use this as "proof," be my guest.
Does Ragnos have more Sith knowledge? No.
Are you certain about this? No.
Did Ragnos do anything off planet? No.
Again, you're ASSUMING the sith was grounded on one planet, this is also uncertain.
Does Lord Revan have amazing accomplishments and high praise from people of his time while Ragnos does not? Yes.
We don't know, obviously to be known as the "greatest sith lord ever" has to have done something.
Again, you do not know.
A more powerful display of power? No.
Again, you have no clue.
We're done here.
You've done nothing but level fanboyism and assumptions at me and you've provided no evidence.
Do we KNOW of Ragnos' abilities? No. But this just shows he's NOT APPLICABLE. That does not COUNT AGAINST HIM.
What you're doing is, "We don't know if he did it" so Revan must be more powerful. Logical Fallacy at its finest.
Are your two favorite words logical fallacy? I would say the same about you on several points. Firstly you continually bash me for assuming yet EVERYTHING about Ragnos' "power" all comes from assumption except for his spirit. If you're gonna be stupid like that then no I'm not gonna debate with you.
How does Desann or Luke have any importance with Ragnos' "power"? More logical fallacy from yourself.
I know Wikipedia isn't canon, the only reason I included that is because you continually said Ragnos is considered by many to be the greatest Sith and Revan isn't. Woo hoo. Like you said, greatest and most powerful are two different things and many do consider Revan to be the most powerful which was my point.
Now about Ragnos at full power: First, Kun's spirit was NEVER inside Kyp's body. Know what you're talking about next time if you're gonna be an ass like this. Next, who says Ragnos couldn't maintain his form outside of Tavion's body? It was simply a better way for him to fight. When Jaden destroyed the scepter, all the Force energy that had been drained, or infused by it was RELEASED. And yes this is a fact since later Luke says the cultists lost their power when the scepter was destroyed so naturally Ragnos wouldn't be able to do anything else.
I never said Jaden was weak. He/she is quite powerful actually. Who says Tavion was totally weak? She was on the ground, big deal. Jaden knocked her on her butt, so what? She still Force jumped backwards onto the statue and then Force jumped off. Not all that weak to me.
Your points are laughable at best especially with your superior attitude. If you want to debate, do it calmly, listen to other's posts, don't insult others, and don't think your the best when you clearly told me to stop assuming so much yet if you don't assume at all then Ragnos has no Force powers whatsoever, and can't beat anyone in a duel. Nice logical fallacy smart one.
Are your two favorite words logical fallacy? I would say the same about you on several points. Firstly you continually bash me for assuming yet EVERYTHING about Ragnos' "power" all comes from assumption except for his spirit. If you're gonna be stupid like that then no I'm not gonna debate with you.
I say logical fallacy because you USE logical fallacy. It's that simple.
You say you're "not gonna debate", when have you BEEN debating? You've been leveling a bunch of pointless assumptions.
There is a difference between DEDUCTION and ASSUMPTION, learn it.
An example of deduction would be: Marka Ragnos is a Sith Lord.
Sith Lords are badass motherf*ckers.
Therefore, Marka Ragnos is a badass motherf*cker.
An example of assumption, which you use is:
"I don't know anything about Marka Ragnos, therefore Revan is more powerful."
This is both logical fallacy and possibly incorrect.
How does Desann or Luke have any importance with Ragnos' "power"? More logical fallacy from yourself.
I never said it had direct "importance" with Ragnos' power. The mentioning of the point doesn't mean logical fallacy. You should go look up what logical fallacy IS, and then come back. Go google it, until then, don't even try to act like you know what you're talking about.
You mentioned JK:A as a source, but then you discount another source of the same series. What you're doing is arbitrarily trying to decide what's "proof" and what's not.
More specifically, you mentioned used one moment in JK:A, where Jaden beats Ragnavion in battle, but then you discount when Desann beats NJO Luke because he "wasn't trying".
It doesn't have to pertain to Ragnos, in a general debate, when you discount one source and then count another source IN THE SAME MOULD, it's logical fallacy. Count both sources. Desann beat Luke in JK2:JO, Jaden beat Ragnavion in JK:A. It's that simple.
I know Wikipedia isn't canon, the only reason I included that is because you continually said Ragnos is considered by many to be the greatest Sith and Revan isn't. Woo hoo. Like you said, greatest and most powerful are two different things and many do consider Revan to be the most powerful which was my point.
Then stop trying to pass your "point" as fact unless you HAVE facts to back it up.
This "I think Revan is more powerful because I know what he's done" is BS.
Now about Ragnos at full power: First, Kun's spirit was NEVER inside Kyp's body. Know what you're talking about next time if you're gonna be an ass like this. Next, who says Ragnos couldn't maintain his form outside of Tavion's body? It was simply a better way for him to fight. When Jaden destroyed the scepter, all the Force energy that had been drained, or infused by it was RELEASED. And yes this is a fact since later Luke says the cultists lost their power when the scepter was destroyed so naturally Ragnos wouldn't be able to do anything else.
You're the one being an ass. If you want to hold a civil debate, learn the general rules about it. I've never once leveled a direct insult besides pointing out your logical fallacy, you are the one that gets flustered and starts with ad hominem.
And secondly, the cinematic SHOWS Ragnos moving directly into Tavion's battle, and upon defeat of Ragnavion, he moves right back into his sarcophagus. The mention of his destruction and the closing of his tomb follows the event.
Also, I'm mentioning that Kun's spirit could EXIST outside of a body, Ragnos' spirit was not as strong as you say he is, all charged up with force energy, in that he couldn't exist out of Tavion's body before flying back towards his Sarcophagus. The point isn't debatable, it's there in the book and juxtapose that to the cinematic, canon ending scene.
I never said Jaden was weak. He/she is quite powerful actually. Who says Tavion was totally weak? She was on the ground, big deal. Jaden knocked her on her butt, so what? She still Force jumped backwards onto the statue and then Force jumped off. Not all that weak to me.
You make it sound like Jaden, being a simple Jedi Knight, would necessarily prove Exar was more powerful than Ragnos, because of his spirit. When you try to turn it into an argument, you're heavily implying Jaden is weak.
Your points are laughable at best especially with your superior attitude.
You mean the attitude you seem to have?
If my points are laughable, you have no point. You're WHOLE argument is this:
"I know more about Revan, so therefore he's more powerful than Ragnos."
I've told you before, and you should do well to learn: that's logical fallacy AND possibly incorrect.
What about that can't you understand?
If you want to debate, do it calmly, listen to other's posts, don't insult others, and don't think your the best when you clearly told me to stop assuming so much yet if you don't assume at all then Ragnos has no Force powers whatsoever, and can't beat anyone in a duel. Nice logical fallacy smart one.
Is it an assumption that Ragnos has force powers? Certainly. But it's DEDUCTION because of the situation he is in, being unquestioned Dark Lord of the Sith, it is HIGHLY PROBABLE he has it. In this case, it's not assumption, it's deduction. Like I said, you need to go back to Debate 101. Learn to hold a candle before you try to light up a room.
You say I am insulting, then you level insults at me; way to go hypocrisy. Like I said, I suggest you do a few things:
1) Go to google and look up logical fallacy. LEARN IT.
2) Take a lesson in debate, you're out of your league and if there was a moderator, you'd be screwed.
3) Check what you're typing. When you say I'm insulting and then level insults, it certainly doesn't show that you know what you're doing.
4) Don't say "logical fallacy" simply because you feel like it. If you want me to, I could point out what is the name of the specific rule of logical fallacy you broke; but judging by how you have been reacting, you'll just attempt to shrug it off.
1) Luke, Sidious, Yoda (since Lucasarts says so lol)
2) Marka Ragnos, Nihilus
3) Revan, Darth Traya
4) Exar Kun
5) Tulak Hord, Sion
The number ones are already explained, Marka Ragnos held enough power to scare the shit outve Ludo Kressh, Naga Sadow and countless other sith lords, Nihilus can drain the life out've anyone. Traya probably has more knowlage of the force then anyone. I guess everyone knows why revans there, same with Exar Kun. Tulak Hord was the best lightsaber master of all time (so says Traya), and many people have forgotten to include Sion, but being immortal is a pretty cool skill.
Originally posted by Gideon
I've reevaluated my stance on determining power levels. It's tedious work, so it's easier to divide them into tiers.
And when you say tiers do you mean by jedi,sith,dark jedi,etc. or like there is a tier that could have oh lets say have mace,dooku and revan and below that is a tier with than one with Ulic,bastilla and the exile for example.
Originally posted by Darth HordHe doesn't. Legacy itself made it clear luke is miles ahead of jacen in the force. He owned jacen with mere TK and i believe Sidious can do far worse.Sith: Sidious but he better watch out they way Caedus is being built up by the legacy writers.
No matter how overhyped caedus is, sidious > him. luke > him
Originally posted by Thiru
He doesn't. Legacy itself made it clear luke is miles ahead of jacen in the force. He owned jacen with mere TK and i believe Sidious can do far worse.No matter how overhyped caedus is, sidious > him. luke > him
Im talking about how in every F-in legacy book jacen is becoming more and more powerful and gaining new powers we haven't seen from him like when he touched ben and disconnected him the force then touched him again he was reconnected. It would not surprise me if the authors continue this then sidious may have to watch. but i hope i doesn't happen cause i hate jacen. 😛