Originally posted by Endless Mikeagain, the lucifer scan is what i'm basing my opinion from. and that instance makes it seem quite clear [to me, at least] the one must, in some way/shape/form, venture into the source in order to reach the aleph.
Actually that's not what it says. It says that the Source and the Aleph are both beyond the Source Wall. It doesn't say that you have to go through one to get to the other.I maintain that Swamp Thing and Metron may have passed the Source Wall, but they didn't visit the Source itself.
"i've passed through the veil:"
"he needed a vantage point -- a place to watch from... and naturally he chose the best one in the entire universe."
"so he went to the edge of everything. there's something out there called the source, but that's not what he was after -- in fact he ignored it."
"what he wanted was the aleph -- you hold your head in this one place, and you can see everything in the universe, all at once."
Originally posted by Galan007Which Lucifer has clearly not gone into, as shown by your scan... so he didn't need to go through the Source (as you have claimed) to get to the Aleph.
dude, what lies beyond the source wall IS the source itself. the stony figure lucifer is chillin next to? that's the source.
Seems pretty straight forward.
Originally posted by Original Smurphwhen you go through the source wall, you enter the source - this fact has been mentioned several times throughout the years. the figure lucifer saw is merely a physical representation of the source... something to give it form.
Which Lucifer has clearly not gone into, as shown by your scan... so he didn't need to go through the Source (as you have claimed) to get to the Aleph.Seems pretty straight forward.
i don't understand what you think you've proved..?
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also, do you fellas not see lucifer standing on the source-being's shoulder when he is viewing the totality of creation? if not then you should really look again, because that [obviously] IS the aleph:
the source and the aleph... part of the same whole
Originally posted by Galan007Nein.
when you go through the source wall, you enter the source
It's perhaps the likelihood, but it appears that it's not an absolute necessity to enter the source. Lucifer, as mentioned, simply ignored it. Lucifer is one the source's shoulder, not inside the source, clearly showing that you can have gone past the source wall and still be separate from the source.
There seems to be no reason to assert that you have to have entered the source to then be apart from it and in the Aleph. Nothing in the scan indicates that.
Originally posted by Original Smurphwhen one ventures beyond the source wall, the void they then find themselves in IS the source. if you have a problem with that, or don't believe it, then you might want to do some additional research - as i can assure you it has been confirmed numerous times in the past.
Nein.It's perhaps the likelihood, but it appears that it's not an absolute necessity to enter the source. Lucifer, as mentioned, simply ignored it. Lucifer is one the source's shoulder, not inside the source, clearly showing that you can have gone past the source wall and still be separate from the source.
There seems to be no reason to assert that you have to have entered the source to then be apart from it and in the Aleph. Nothing in the scan indicates that.
and to additionally break down what like i have been saying - lucifer had to first reach the source, before he could reach the aleph. which is why i said that the source and the aleph are parts of the same whole.
Originally posted by Endless Mikethe source walls of more recent times have sorta/kinda been retconned, ever since the events of "DotNG." now they act as barriers between each of the 52 universes, and the bleed between them. only time [and more issues involving the new gods] will tell us what has become of the 'true' source wall/source.
Isn't the Bleed also beyond the Source? The Bleed is not the Source.
Originally posted by Galan007Apparently it's possible to completely bypass that void if done properly, as seen by Lucifer and Swamp Thing/Metron.
when one ventures beyond the source wall, the void they then find themselves in IS the source.
Unless you can find a scan that says that this is impossible, then it seems to be the likely conclusion.
Originally posted by Original Smurphlucifer didn't bypass anything. if you go beyond the wall, you are in the source. he was sitting on the source being's shoulder [which WAS the aleph] for crying out loud. none
Apparently it's possible to completely bypass that void if done properly, as seen by Lucifer and Swamp Thing/Metron.Unless you can find a scan that says that this is impossible, then it seems to be the likely conclusion.
as for darkseid's comment during the swamp thing issue... that's over 20 years old. i'd accept the plethora of more current information regarding the source wall/source, before i'd dwell on that single comment made decades ago.
Originally posted by Galan007
when one ventures beyond the source wall, the void they then find themselves in IS the source. if you have a problem with that, or don't believe it, then you might want to do some additional research - as i can assure you it has been confirmed numerous times in the past.and to additionally break down what like i have been saying - lucifer had to first reach the source, before he could reach the aleph. which is why i said that the source and the aleph are parts of the same whole.
Originally posted by xJLxKingit's as good a theory as any. but the truth is, we will never be absolutely certain until we're smacked with some more knowledge.
Wasn't the Primal Monitor actually the void? I mean, the DC universe in a "Germ" to the PM. DCU is inside it. Would that mean the void isn't the source?
