Comic Book Questions

Originally posted by Galan007
I've always wondered the same thing about Vampirella. Those books must have a huge cult-following given that they are constantly being cranked out(there are literally hundreds of Vampirella comics)... But like you said: she's never really brought up in any comic forums, which is odd.

I downloaded a 3gb Vampirella mega-torrent some months ago, but haven't gotten around to reading any of the comics yet. Might have to start.

Yeah, I skimmed through about 10 issues this morning, and they were garbage for the most part.

The covers seem to be the best thing about the series.

@TheGodKiller:

In an alternate reality, the Celestials were actually shown to be clearly superior to the phoenix force. In Mutant X #12, it was shown that the celestials (5th host) managed to contain the goblin entity who not only defeated the alternate phoenix force, but also absorbed its power:

http://i.imgur.com/epYNqwN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/D2ZQVrE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iufa5hq.jpg

confirmation from X-men phoenix force handbook:

http://i.imgur.com/DCMp66B.jpg?1

Note: in the same series, the goblin entity managed to empower the beyonder (when merged with him) to a point where he was stated to be able to destroy ALL MULTIVERSES in existence (mutant x annual 2001):

http://i.imgur.com/ABr58ee.jpg

that certainly puts the celestials leagues above the phoenix force, imo.

--

Regarding the Phoenix...it is full of contradictions, not just in terms of feats (it was even stated in excalibur #34 letter's page, to be one of the creative forces of all realities (plural), feel free to ask for scans if needed) but some writers portray it as being 1 entity across the entire multiverse, yet we have seen alternate versions (there's also a letter's page where the writer or the editor says that all what if?(s) should be disregarded and aren't part of MU, and only 1 entity exists in all the multiverse) but we have also seen alternate versions aside from the what if issues. Mutant X is one example.

@Galan007:

if you take a close look toward the end of that FF annual issue, you'll realize that the "no-named" celestial's role was very similar to that of Arishem's, so presumably he's above average celestials. That however, doesn't change the fact that kubik was talking about celestials in general.

Also, Kubik is a multiversal power, not just universal.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, I skimmed through about 10 issues this morning, and they were garbage for the most part.

The covers seem to be the best thing about the series.

Originally posted by operator616
@TheGodKiller:

In an alternate reality, the Celestials were actually shown to be clearly superior to the phoenix force. In Mutant X #12, it was shown that the celestials (5th host) managed to contain the goblin entity who not only defeated the alternate phoenix force, but also absorbed its power:

http://i.imgur.com/epYNqwN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/D2ZQVrE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iufa5hq.jpg

confirmation from X-men phoenix force handbook:

http://i.imgur.com/DCMp66B.jpg?1

Note: in the same series, the goblin entity managed to empower the beyonder (when merged with him) to a point where he was stated to be able to destroy ALL MULTIVERSES in existence (mutant x annual 2001):

http://i.imgur.com/ABr58ee.jpg

that certainly puts the celestials leagues above the phoenix force, imo.

--

Regarding the Phoenix...it is full of contradictions, not just in terms of feats (it was even stated in excalibur #34 letter's page, to be one of the creative forces of all realities (plural), feel free to ask for scans if needed) but some writers portray it as being 1 entity across the entire multiverse, yet we have seen alternate versions (there's also a letter's page where the writer or the editor says that all what if?(s) should be disregarded and aren't part of MU, and only 1 entity exists in all the multiverse) but we have also seen alternate versions aside from the what if issues. Mutant X is one example.

@Galan007:

if you take a close look toward the end of that FF annual issue, you'll realize that the "no-named" celestial's role was very similar to that of Arishem's, so presumably he's above average celestials. That however, doesn't change the fact that kubik was talking about celestials in general.

Also, Kubik is a multiversal power, not just universal.

^
1. why is celestials (collectively, not individually) being superior to Galactus, a surprise, exactly?

2. It wasn't the whole race, it was the 5th host.

What multiversal feats does Kubik have?

^
First off, do you consider Kubik defeating Beyonder a showing of multiversal power? because i personally do.

Regardless, his power is definitely multiversal:

In Avengers v1 #290, super adaptoid mentions that a battle between him and kubik would destroy all existence extending to infinite dimensions and adjacent universes:

http://i.imgur.com/rrkTX7f.jpg?1

Also, in Marvel team up annual #5, when the serpent crowns were assembled to form a mega powerful set. The cosmic cube which eventually evolved into Kubik, was used to vanquish the serpent crowns from all realities:

http://i.imgur.com/y9cTa5w.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2cT8Ikb.jpg

kubik's 1991 (master edition) bio:

http://i.imgur.com/ezGoPcG.jpg?1

it's unknown how many crown were there exactly, but it's definitely more than 777, each from a different universe. Some handbooks say it's from all realities in the multiverse, other say that it's not. It's definitely a multiversal feat in scope, though.

and while one may argue that the CCUs are greater than cube beings, it should be noted that the CCUs are never really used to their full power either, only a few people did, like thanos, for instance, or bernard worrel.

There's also an important thing i want to clarify: Which is Kubik's 1989 bio, it sort of implies that he is Galactus' equal in power. While this may imply that Kubik's power is merely universal, this is not true if we take a close look at Galactus' portrayal in that time period:

In Avengers v1 #296, this version of Galactus was regarded as being an omniversal threat:

http://i.imgur.com/x0sThyb.jpg

this was mentioned more than once.

Not to leave anything out, it is open to debate whether Galactus, along with the time bubble (which is a creation of his) could have actually destroyed the omniverse (see comments by Walt Simonson (writer of the story) and john bussema (penciler) at the bottom of the page)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/timebubblegalactus.htm

There's also the fact that Mark Gruenwald was the editor of that avengers issue, this is the same guy who defined the omniverse as being a continuum of multiverses later in Quasar #31.

Galactus being comparable to Kubik in terms of power doesn't make him any less impressive, at least not in that period of time.

Originally posted by operator616
First off, do you consider Kubik defeating Beyonder a showing of multiversal power?

So Vamp is shit? K cool, won't read it then.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I don't think that's an adequate way to gauge how Phoenix in general would perform against the Celestials, because for one Tiamut has usually always been considered a special Celestial(sometimes even called the most powerful of his race at times), and second the P5 were implied to be worthless hosts in that comic, and the moment the PF awakened, it pushed Sinister's sh1t in.

God, you guys must be starting to think that I am GalacticStorm 2.0.

Anyway, a small portion of Tiamut's power split among the MP was enough to take out each of the 1/5 parts of the Phoenix Force. But when it was the full force, it was more than whatever small portion of Tiamut's power was currently being distributed to the MP's.

It doesn't look good either way for the Force vs Celestials...

But anyway...

So a bunch of Celestials > the Goblin Force with Phoenix's power
Which naturally flows into Celestials >>> Kubik who = an alternate Galactus because that Galactus is naturally who the Bios would refer to... the Galactus in three to four issues... otherwise it's a low showing for Kubik.
And the Celestials are Multiversal because a bunch of statements about Kubik?

Or this:
http://imgur.com/cjcgu27
http://imgur.com/HWgswQz

And naturally this:
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff240/Branlactus/Fights/Celestials/FantasticFour_604_020.jpg

^ bunch of statements from kubik? the celestials managed to put the (cube) beyonder in an illusion, and made him think that he defeated them, clearly showing their superiority. Not to mention that Kubik's statements are confirmed by the handbook (kubik's 1989 bio)

http://i.imgur.com/Y2riIFd.jpg?1

note that the handbook does differentiate between an actual fact and a potential hyperbole. When something is not certain (or a clear hyperbole), the handbook/bio says: character X "claimed" etc...(meaning it's an unproven statement). nothing of the sort was mentioned in the above bio.

on panel illustration + on panel statements + bio confirmation = fact, period.

The alternate Galactus was from a timeline which diverged from 616. So it's basically a future version of 616 Galactus.

considering that the child franklin created countless pocket realities like nothing, and was called being an omniversal threat, an adult version of him (who himself created a pocket reality at the time-space collapse), not being able to defeat 3 average celestials, speaks volumes.

Originally posted by Galan007
I never have, no.

i don't see why not, really.

i can certainly understand that you don't consider that this beyonder was operating on the same levels as in FFA 27 (trans mulitversal levels) but all the secret wars showings were achieved by the half cube Beyonder. If you want confirmation that he was still a multiversal threat while being retconned to a cube being:

1993 bio (5 years after the retcon) confirms he was a multiversal threat (just like on panel):

http://i.imgur.com/VFCEtTc.jpg?1

beyonder's most recent bio (2009, marvel encyclopedia) confirms this as well (read the right part before the left)

http://i.imgur.com/PKiD6TP.jpg?1

don't see why it's not at least, a multiversal showing of power.

Originally posted by operator616
i don't see why not, really.

i can certainly understand that you don't consider that this beyonder was operating on the same levels as in FFA 27 (trans mulitversal levels) but all the secret wars showings were achieved by the half cube Beyonder.

Just my opinion. Really don't care to argue it, though. /shrug

Originally posted by operator616
^ bunch of statements from kubik? the celestials managed to put the (cube) beyonder in an illusion, and made him think that he defeated them, clearly showing their superiority. Not to mention that Kubik's statements are confirmed by the handbook (kubik's 1989 bio)

http://i.imgur.com/Y2riIFd.jpg?1

note that the handbook does differentiate between an actual fact and a potential hyperbole. When something is not certain (or a clear hyperbole), the handbook/bio says: character X "claimed" etc...(meaning it's an unproven statement). nothing of the sort was mentioned in the above bio.

on panel illustration + on panel statements + bio confirmation = fact, period.

The alternate Galactus was from a timeline which diverged from 616. So it's basically a future version of 616 Galactus.

considering that the child franklin created countless pocket realities like nothing, and was called being an omniversal threat, an adult version of him (who himself created a pocket reality at the time-space collapse), not being able to defeat 3 average celestials, speaks volumes.

Also, lol at the bio saying he's probably less powerful than LT while being definitely less than Eternity. Bios.

Why in the world would the bio be comparing him to an alternate Galactus? Anyway, any Celestial >>> Kubik = Alternate more powerful Galactus is what you're saying. When you know, Galactus and Celestials...

Plus, the Celestials that fought the Goblin Force were definitely more than three. Not saying Adult Frank is below the Force, it's just sketchy logic to get there. Though a Kubik vs Force thread is def in the making

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
So Vamp is shit? K cool, won't read it then.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Because Tiamut is the most powerful. That doesn't mean that a tiny portion of his power is anywhere near a different Celestial's power.

Anyway, a small portion of Tiamut's power split among the MP was enough to take out each of the 1/5 parts of the Phoenix Force. But when it was the full force, it was more than whatever small portion of Tiamut's power was currently being distributed to the MP's.

It doesn't look good either way for the Force vs Celestials...

But anyway...

So a bunch of Celestials > the Goblin Force with Phoenix's power
Which naturally flows into Celestials >>> Kubik who = an alternate Galactus because that Galactus is naturally who the Bios would refer to... the Galactus in three to four issues... otherwise it's a low showing for Kubik.
And the Celestials are Multiversal because a bunch of statements about Kubik?

Or this:
http://imgur.com/cjcgu27
http://imgur.com/HWgswQz

And naturally this:
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff240/Branlactus/Fights/Celestials/FantasticFour_604_020.jpg

And another point to be noted, the Force practically one-shotted Sinister the moment it got awakened. Sinister didn't appear to even stand a prayer of a chance. That's why I believe that showing is an insufficient to gauge how it would perform against a bunch of Celestials in a comic book. Could it dominate them like Hickman's Galactus did? I think so.

Originally posted by operator616
^
1. why is celestials (collectively, not individually) being superior to Galactus, a surprise, exactly?

2. It wasn't the whole race, it was the 5th host.

Your own scans say:"their great race devastated, they managed to diminish its power and contain it". So they managed to weaken and trap the GE after incurring enormous losses to themselves. Not to mention that Hosts vary in power, and 5th Host might as well have consisted all the Celestials of that reality ever.

^
Galactus can't beat more than 2 celestials, and he certainly can't take an entire celestial host head on. He got one shotted by 3 of them when they merged (only killing 1 of them)....after that 4-planet snack. So why is it so hard to accept that a celestial host is well above Galactus (even at his peak)?

yeah, because the 5th host suffered enormous loses, the celestial race was devastated, that's how i see it. Celestials usually go in hosts, they don't send their entire race. But you're right, hosts do vary in power, so we have no way of telling the exact power of that host, in which case it becomes a speculation on both of our parts. Though im pretty sure the 5th host isn't consisted of all the celestial race.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Unless you like phapping off to comic book stripperellas, good choice. 👆

I know all that, but again, we're comparing the Force to the most powerful Celestial here.

And another point to be noted, the Force practically one-shotted Sinister the moment it got awakened. Sinister didn't appear to even stand a prayer of a chance. That's why I believe that showing is an insufficient to gauge how it would perform against a bunch of Celestials in a comic book. Could it dominate them like Hickman's Galactus did? I think so.

I don't think Sinister siphoning off power from Tiamut's head puts the power anywhere near any Celestial in power.

Sinister wasn't even using the power to power himself up. Only his weapons and the Madelyn's. Hell when he first got the Creation Engines up his main clone got one shotted by a sniper rifle.
Plus, the power wasn't even being fully used, and what was being used was being split up worse than the Phoenix Five were. Between being used for thousands of guns, instruments, the Madelyns (who blew up when the Force inside them made them), and was being used to make thousands of clones... and the main power source was still sitting there inside the machine.

Basically Sinister had enough power to make beings that could take out 1/5th of the Force (times 5) at a time while still not nearly tapping into all its power.

I can't imagine how that showing makes the Force look better than Celestials.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
You were basing "multiversal" based off statements about Kubik, when there's actual on panel proof of this. It'd be like saying Wolverine can cut Hulk based off of all the times it talked about his cutting ability without actually using Hulk

Also, lol at the bio saying he's probably less powerful than LT while being definitely less than Eternity. Bios.

Why in the world would the bio be comparing him to an alternate Galactus? Anyway, any Celestial >>> Kubik = Alternate more powerful Galactus is what you're saying. When you know, Galactus and Celestials...

Plus, the Celestials that fought the Goblin Force were definitely more than three. Not saying Adult Frank is below the Force, it's just sketchy logic to get there. Though a Kubik vs Force thread is def in the making

When did i base it off only on kubik's statements? in any case, it's really pretty clear given the fact that the on panel showing and kubik's statements came in the very same issue.

no, what im saying is that Galactus as portrayed in that time period (88-89) was very impressive, and to answer your question, even to take an example of that same galactus we are talking about, the bio (2004, FF encyclopedia) simply refers to him as Galactus (there really isn't much difference seeing how it was a galactus from a timeline/universe which diverges from 616):

http://i.imgur.com/lBJEPKu.jpg?1

the Galactus the bio is talking about, is this particular alternate version because we know he's the one galactus that gave TVA massive problems. And the bio itself compares Galactus' case to molecule man and beyonder. In case you're unaware of fantastic four annual #27 events, a battle between those 2 caused trans-multiversal damage, and left massive problems for the time variance authority, the same guys whose hall of chronometery is as big as the omniverse, same guys who are sometimes represented by actual writers (not like TOAA, though, an entirely different concept), im not even kidding, all this is seen on panel and even confirmed by the bios. But most importantly, Galactus was a potential threat to the entire OMNIVERSE, in that time period. Kubik being compared to someone like that, doesn't take away anything from him.

yes they were more than 3, but the goblin force was the real challenge not the PF's absorbed power. Though i don't think that anyone should have any doubts regarding celestials superiority over PF after they were shown creating the multiverse with nothing but their will on panel (im setting aside the mutant x affair).

Originally posted by operator616
When did i base it off only on kubik's statements? in any case, it's really pretty clear given the fact that the on panel showing and kubik's statements came in the very same issue.

no, what im saying is that Galactus as portrayed in that time period (88-89) was very impressive, and to answer your question, even to take an example of that same galactus we are talking about, the bio (2004, FF encyclopedia) simply refers to him as Galactus (there really isn't much difference seeing how it was a galactus from a timeline/universe which diverges from 616):

http://i.imgur.com/lBJEPKu.jpg?1

the Galactus the bio is talking about, is this particular alternate version because we know he's the one galactus that gave TVA massive problems. And the bio itself compares Galactus' case to molecule man and beyonder. In case you're unaware of fantastic four annual #27 events, a battle between those 2 caused trans-multiversal damage, and left massive problems for the time variance authority, the same guys whose hall of chronometery is as big as the omniverse, same guys who are sometimes represented by actual writers (not like TOAA, though, an entirely different concept), im not even kidding, all this is seen on panel and even confirmed by the bios. But most importantly, Galactus was a potential threat to the entire OMNIVERSE, in that time period. Kubik being compared to someone like that, doesn't take away anything from him.

yes they were more than 3, but the goblin force was the real challenge not the PF's absorbed power. Though i don't think that anyone should have any doubts regarding celestials superiority over PF after they were shown creating the multiverse with nothing but their will on panel (im setting aside the mutant x affair).

But he wasn't the same Galactus, and it makes no sense for Kubik to be compared to a Galactus who only appeared in like 4 issues, as opposed to the Galactus who is from the same universe. It'd be like saying Kubik was actually being compared to the What-If Galactus' that appeared at the time. Unless you have evidence of them referencing that Galactus, it's a baseless claim.
Even more baseless from it coming from a bio.

You realize that 616 Galactus caused problems for the TVA by firing off the UN around the same time period, don't you?

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff240/Branlactus/Raw%20power/Statements%20of%20power/FantasticFourAnnual24-08.jpg

See, there you go again. Kubik being compared to the most powerful Galactus on panel doesn't take anything away from Kubik. It's like you're implying that him being compared to the 616 Galactus is a low feat. The same Kubik who you're trying to prove is below an individual Celestial, who also happens to be below 616 Galactus.

But that's the problem, we have no idea what it took. It could have been 5 Celestials, or it could have been thousands. We don't know.
And that's what I said. They actually have multiversal feats, not just being compared to Kubik feats.

^
Well, considering that in that same kubik bio, it says that kubik's power is unknown how it compares to galactus (implying that they're close), when at the same time saying that kubik is below most known celestials and DEFINITELY less powerful than exitar, id say that especially in that time period, at least, celestials were regarded as being more powerful than Galactus, especially the high tier celestials.

I actually expected you to bring that FF annual, and I do realize that, that's why i specifically said that the one that bio refers to is the one that caused the most massive problems to TVA, because it was going to affect ALL timelines (omniverse). the FFA 24 doesn't compare to what Beyonder and MM did.

it's not that it is the most powerful version of galactus that appeared on panel, it's because it coincides as being in that same time period, that's why.

And you don't think that Kubik being compared to 616 Galactus (on average) is a low feat for him? same being who was going to destroy the entire multiverse with his battle with super adaptoid, or defeating beyonder and holding his entire universe in one hand?

Alright.

Originally posted by operator616
^
Well, considering that in that same kubik bio, it says that kubik's power is unknown how it compares to galactus (implying that they're close), when at the same time saying that kubik is below most known celestials and DEFINITELY less powerful than exitar, id say that especially in that time period, at least, celestials were regarded as being more powerful than Galactus, especially the high tier celestials.

I actually expected you to bring that FF annual, and I do realize that, that's why i specifically said that the one that bio refers to is the one that caused the most massive problems to TVA, because it was going to affect ALL timelines (omniverse). the FFA 24 doesn't compare to what Beyonder and MM did.

it's not that it is the most powerful version of galactus that appeared on panel, it's because it coincides as being in that same time period, that's why.

And you don't think that Kubik being compared to 616 Galactus (on average) is a low feat for him? same being who was going to destroy the entire multiverse with his battle with super adaptoid, or defeating beyonder and holding his entire universe in one hand?

Alright.

And it was stated that they were only looking for massive problems? What you posted only stated they were keeping on eye on him. Hard to keep an eye on a being that's currently erased.
Can you prove that bio was specifically pointing to the alternate Galactus? And can you prove that even if, that's relevant to a completely different bio 15 years earlier?

It doesn't matter what time period it was. It wouldn't be using a 4 issue alternate Galactus to paint a picture of power. That's even less baseless than me saying the bio was actually referring to Galactus at his hungriest levels.

Wait... wait... hold the phone.
You're saying Kubik's 1989 bio refers to him being around Galactus level, and that was the time period the alternate Galactus was an omniversal threat, so naturally that bio refers to omniversal Galactus. Well, besides this being a large leap in logic, let's look at the date omniversal Galactus' first appearance was:
http://marvel.wikia.com/Fantastic_Four_Vol_1_338

March 1990. 1 year after Kubik's 1989 bio.
So I think it's safe to say that the bio was not in any way referring to a story that came out after the bio was published. To say the least.

And are you seriously asking me if him being compared to Galactus in a bio is a low feat?

I had some more written up, but I erased it due to me thinking about the cover dates.

I think we're done here.