Originally posted by Darth Mantis
Really, but is Revan agile... And what makes you think that Yoda could not predict Revan's attacks... Honestly I don't think Revan could defeat Yoda's agility... Revan better stick to being a tactican because he would fall to the superior skill and power of Jedi Master Yoda...
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Can we realy say he is not superior to Sidious ?
Yoda is limited to a certain degree by the rules of the Jedi Order. We don't know, what he wants to do with Sidious. Did he wanted Sidious dead or just defeated ? That is a question because it is harder to capture somebody like Sidious than simply kill him when that person wants to kill you. Same with Dooku.
"Your reign is over and not short enough it was" He wants him dead charging him is not an option anymore... He makes that pretty clear.
Well...
Yoda can't get hit by three Jedi Council Members who try to do so. He can't get hit by Dooku. He can't get hit by Sidious. I don't think that Revan would be able to do that. If you assume that Yoda can't hit Revan this would be a never ending fight.
Force powers would be a deciding factor or who ever would get tired first, who manages to get an advantage. And because Revan is a more offensive fighter and not stupid enough to make mistakes he will have an edge here.
And again there is the question if Yoda ever did come close to use his full power against any opponent. He is a very passive fighter and force user. There are only two "agressive" actions from him both in ROTS:
First when he enteres Sidious room and smashed that two red guards of Sidious against the wall (and they were down immediatly) and the second when he threw Sidious across the entire room. And both things didn't cost him much energy. For me that are the two situations where we can see what Yoda probably COULD do and I think he can do much more "powerful" things if he wants or needs to do so.
Very possible, but if he didn't use it when he needed it he would never ever use it. Not when fighting Revan either.
I don't want to argue that Revan learned much or at least everything that he needed. I just say you can't learn as many things in 30 years as another guy can learn in 900 years. And even the Jedi had knowledge that only a few people (not even all council members) had access to and therefore Revan might never knew it.
Logically you would be right yes, but you have to keep a few things in Mind. Revan was dedicated to studying and there would be more knowledge available for him. He could also learn more from both sides and more about war and he was a fast learner. Of course that does not compare to 900 years but how well you pick up on it also matters. Revan was just a natural.
For example morichro (ancient Jedi technique that rapidly slows down the body functions of target beings) or the technique to cut peoples connection to the force (that what the Council wants to use on the Exile in KOTOR 2). You can assume that Yoda had access to that knowledge and would use it if he realy has to.
Well you have to keep in mind a few things here, Revan wasn't as powerful at the end of Kotor as he was some time later when he regained his memory's and the second one needed several people. And if he could do it alone what would the use be for Revan? Against who could he use it and why? What would he do with it? He would be better of concentrating on more important things. Things that would actually matter for him.
Oh...does it realy help Revan a lot ?
As far as I could get it from everything I heard while playing the KOTOR games that gift is no supernatural power it is just the ability to predict an opponents moves that actualy comes from fighting experience. Yes...I know their were people that could see the actions taken in whole battles and Revan could even see oversee whole wars but that is - in my oppinion - more because of his tactical genius.
Its not a supernatural power you are right about that, its a rare power that only Echani people had which allowed you to prodict battles and wars sometimes years in advance by studying movements. I agree that it probably wasn't the Echani power just something about the same through the force but that hardly matters. It still does the same thing.
Do you realy think that would aid Revan that well in a duel with somebody that uses very uncommon and unpredictable moves like Yoda does ? Still the Echani masters died and you can see the Exile defeating the 5 Echani handmaidens at once (training on Telos). So that thing is not that impressive and useful otherwise that things happened have to be considered being impossible, since the masters of that technique should not get defeated or killed. [/B]
It would help against Yoda more then against anybody else. Normal people can be prodicted and studied its going to be a lot harder if you want to do that with Yoda.
The 5 handmaiden also weren't even close to as powerful as Revan was or the highest Echani Revan killed. Their powers were still young and relativly untrained.
Originally posted by Darth Mantis
The ancient race is the Rakatan... Yoda can most likely takes dozens of the Star Forge droids... Even though revan took down two Terentak by himself, what would make you think Yoda couldn't do it... Remember Yoda's agility, he can most likely take those two creatures down or more... Aren't they resistent to the force... Well those creatures aren't that fast, and Yoda could take those creatures down without them touching him...
Because its just a guess at best, nothing that proves it.
Originally posted by FishyYou honestly think Yoda couldn't take down two inferior creatures as those things... Or the star forge droids... I'm suprised... Well I really don't see anything that would make Revan take Yoda... That's nice that he took down those creatures down by himself, but they still aren't Yoda... Sorry but I really don't put Revan in Yoda's league... But he's up there with Jar Jar...
Because its just a guess at best, nothing that proves it.
Originally posted by Darth Mantis
You honestly think Yoda couldn't take down two inferior creatures as those things... Or the star forge droids... I'm suprised... Well I really don't see anything that would make Revan take Yoda... That's nice that he took down those creatures down by himself, but they still aren't Yoda... Sorry but I really don't put Revan in Yoda's league... But he's up there with Jar Jar...
Nothing that Darth Revan has done has proven that he would beat Yoda in a battle. Yoda could beat Malak...People have praised Revan of how many Dark Jedi/Sith/Jedi he's killed. But Yoda could do the same thing and has more knowledge of the Force. I don't think he's trained for 850 years for nothing...
Originally posted by Revan Souer
Revan was the most powerful JEDI/SITH EVER FACT!!!!
actually where do you get that? cause revan was able to use the star forge? BFD dude, malak could do that and he's not anywhere near the greatest sith.
because he found some sith holocrons? also BFD, he's not the only one to have found some holocrons.
because he ruckused the sith and jedi order? also BFD - sids, not anywhere near close to being the strongest sith ever and he ruckused the jedi order and the republic with darth vader.
don't get me wrong revan is great but he can't kick everyone's ass.
Originally posted by Fishy
"Your reign is over and not short enough it was" He wants him dead charging him is not an option anymore... He makes that pretty clear.
That does not realy mean he wants to kill him. Maybe we should take a closer looks on Yodas motives or opportunities:
a) Killing Sidious:
What would that have done ? Sidious said in front of the Senate that the Jedi wanted to take over the Republic. He said that they tried to assasinate him. So who would believe Yoda that Sidious was a Sith if you assume Yoda would have killed Sidious ? Nobody. They would have taken that action as a proof of what Sidious said to them and lose every confidence in the Jedi and in the Republic.
b) Capturing Sidious or just defeat him without killing:
Better option since that would have been the proof that the Jedi didn't want to kill Sidious thereby proving all his accusations wrong. That would leave Sidious no way to remain leader of the Republic or the Empire since all that people would see he murdered all the Jedi WITHOUT any reason.
c) Tactical reason:
Imagine Yoda doesn't want to kill or defeat Sidious...just keep him busy until Obi-Wan finished Anakin. See...oppinion a and b don't gave Yoda the quarantee that things would be better after it. Killing Sidious apprentice and leaving him with not enough time to train another one - all of Sidious plans would have failed in the end because there would be no Sith left to rule the galaxy.
That is also another explanation why Yoda thinks he has failed. He did not manage to keep Sidious busy until Obi-Wan finished Anakin so that Sidious could travel to Mustafar and save his new apprentice.
Force powers would be a deciding factor or who ever would get tired first, who manages to get an advantage. And because Revan is a more offensive fighter and not stupid enough to make mistakes he will have an edge here.
I don't understand that logic. I don't want get you angry or something like that I simply don't get it. Yoda is a very patient fighter using a very agressive lightsaber form which he mastered. I don't think that he is the first one that will make a mistake here. That has nothing to do with stupidity more with impatience. And Revan is no one that has a huge amount of patience I think - all his actions display that.
Very possible, but if he didn't use it when he needed it he would never ever use it. Not when fighting Revan either.
When he ever needed to use all his powers ?
VS Sidious - he never had a doubt that he would win that he just was surprised badly and in that moment he had no opportunity anymore to use all of his powers.
VS Dooku - same thing and that fight was already over before Dooku throw that massive thing on Obi-Wan and Anakin
I don't think Yoda is very arrogant. He just knows what he can do. And if he has no doubt that people like Dooku (probably best lightsaber duelist at that time) or Sidious (who killed three Jedi Masters in a few seconds) can't defeat him he has to be more powerful than many people think.
Logically you would be right yes, but you have to keep a few things in Mind. Revan was dedicated to studying and there would be more knowledge available for him. He could also learn more from both sides and more about war and he was a fast learner. Of course that does not compare to 900 years but how well you pick up on it also matters. Revan was just a natural.
Well. Do you actualy know what things were in the archieves of the Jedi Order when Yoda had access to them ? The databank of starwars.com (see the article about Yaddle) just states there was an "impressive collection of holocrons, scrolls and tomes". Jedi ? Sith ? We don't know. So we can't tell for sure if Revan had that much more knowledge available for him.
Only thing that we can say is that Yoda had more access to Jedi teachings (or light side force powers) and Revan had more to the dark side ones. Dark side and light side are considered to be equal in power - so still Revan had not the time to learn nearly everything about the dark side while Yoda had the time to learn almost everything about the light side and enough about the dark side that some of the dark side powers are no surprise for him (force lightning).
When it comes to "knowledge" I have to say Yoda knows more than Revan does. And still wisdom is superior to sheer knowledge and Yoda had tons of wisdom compared to Revan.
Well you have to keep in mind a few things here, Revan wasn't as powerful at the end of Kotor as he was some time later when he regained his memory's and the second one needed several people. And if he could do it alone what would the use be for Revan? Against who could he use it and why? What would he do with it? He would be better of concentrating on more important things. Things that would actually matter for him.
There is no defence against both of this abilities. Now imagine Yoda could use them against Revan. Do you give Revan without forcepowers or rapidly slowed body functions (pulse, breathing) a chance versus Yoda ? I don't.
It would help against Yoda more then against anybody else. Normal people can be prodicted and studied its going to be a lot harder if you want to do that with Yoda.The 5 handmaiden also weren't even close to as powerful as Revan was or the highest Echani Revan killed. Their powers were still young and relativly untrained.
Ok. It would aid Revan to a certain degree but it doesn't make him invincible and it won't give him an advantage to Yoda when it comes to lightsaber combat.
Originally posted by Darth Plagues
Nothing that Darth Revan has done has proven that he would beat Yoda in a battle. Yoda could beat Malak...People have praised Revan of how many Dark Jedi/Sith/Jedi he's killed. But Yoda could do the same thing and has more knowledge of the Force. I don't think he's trained for 850 years for nothing...
Your ignorance procedes you, everything Revan had done has been legendary, He had much much more force knowledge then yoda, yoda may have had 850 years but he didn't have nearly the sources Revan did, some of what Revan learned could only be learned at malachor or only be learned at korriban or could only be learned from Revan himsef, no force power yoda has used would be foreign to Revan, but yoda could't learn what revan did as he simply didn't have the sources nor was he able to practice his force abilities in combat as much as revan could. As for yoda being a better swordsman, Revan was a tactical genius with battle pre-cog and a practically flawless lightsaber form, attaru has several defensive flaws, if the exile could kill another attaru master (vrook) with practically no training so it's far from perfect. Revan is almiost 3 times as powerful as the exile and he invented his own saber technique. As for yoda being able to do what revan did, he was never in a situation to do something close to as good so you can't say that s you have no proof. Yoda DOES NOT have more knowledge of the force period. Revan had many more sources that he learned from and many more chances to practice, he could do many moves that yoda was never able to do it's that simple. and yoda's lightsaber technique wasn't nearly as refined as revans. Revan could use force techniques that yoda wouldn't be able to defend against as
A.some techniques can't be defended against like kreia said.
B.Yoda wouldn't know about them
Revan took all the strong points of everything he learned about saber combat and created a nearly inpenetrable style, unlike attaru which has been proven to have a major defensive weakness especially against offensive force powers. While yoda's agility is good if you're opponent know where you're going to be before you do how does it help? Yoda does not have battle pre-cog or if he does it's not nearly at the level of lord Revan. Revan is a master at killing jedi/sith Yoda has fought 2 weak sith and trained padawans that really weren't that great. It's fine that Yoda has good force knowledge, and that he's a sword master, but he hasn't shown superior force abilities, and Revan has a greater knowledge of lightsaber combat and more combat experience as Yoda never participated in sparring matches and the only people we know he's trained are dooku and younglings, he taught the younglings the bare essentials of lightsaber combat and dooku pretty much learned lightsaber combat by himself. Yoda's good but if you look at the proof, Revans better.
Nai fohl, good reasons however:
Revan also had the jedi archive to learn from as well as the sith teachings, Time really doesn't mean anything, We've said before revan can learn in a matter of years what it would take others decades to master. He soaked up all the knowledge possible from every source he had and used it in battle, so he could do everything he heard about, in kotor he had about a 6th of his true power and he could still do many things yoda couldn't, "death field" anyone? and thats without his other knowledge, knowledge yoda wouldn't be able to defend against on the grounds that he's never been to malachor or korriban the only place you could learn about some of these powers. As for patience Revan is probably the most cunning patient sith ever. He doesn't give in to his anger when fighting and being the brilliant tactician he is he would remain calm and wait for yoda to make a mistake, and with revans lightsaber technique it would only be a matter of time, Revan could very well go on the offensive with either his lightsaber or with the force and exploit the defensive flaws in attaru but he wouldn't have to he could easily wait for yoda to get tired or make a mistake, look at the way he waited for the jedi boarding party to come at him on his flagship, he could've gone on the offensive if he wanted but he decided to use his head, he may not have as much wisdom but he has more intelligence in terms of book smarts and street smarts as redneck as that sounds. Now remembering that he has a near flawless saber technique and more knowledge of force techniques particularly offensive ones, remember tthat he'd use his battle pre-cog to know where yoda would attack even before yoda would know himself, now throw in that he's ruthless and he'll use even the slightest chance he has to gain the upper hand and you'll be left with an opponent who is too powerful for even master Yoda to handle, as much as I like the green dude.
p.s Thanks for making intelligence posts with reasons instead of criticizing someone point of view without any proof it's nice to debate with someone competent, unlike others *cough* plagues*cough*
If Revan had this "pre-cog" ability, why couldn't he see that Malak was going to attack him... Even though he was fighting jedi at the time, he should still be able to see what Malak's up too... Revan has never fought an opponent like Yoda... And Yoda has never fought an opponent such as Revan... I mean Revan is pretty solid on his techniques but when it comes down to it, his accomplishments in the past dont mean sh!t when he is fighting Yoda... Anyway where would this battle take place, because that makes all the difference... On the star forge, Revan... In the swamps of Dagobah, Yoda...
Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Revan also had the jedi archive to learn from as well as the sith teachings, Time really doesn't mean anything, We've said before revan can learn in a matter of years what it would take others decades to master.
Actually Revan did not have the Jedi archive. The main archive of the order was located on Ossus and the planet was destroyed in the Great Sith War 33 years before the Mandalorian Wars started. Basically he had what was left from that archives. And I guess that would not be as much as the ROTS Jedi might have gathered in 3,900 years from the Jedi Civil war to their time.
And we are not talking about decades here...we are talking about centuries. So even if you assume that Revan could learn 10 times as fast as normal force users (so 1 year for the knowledge other people need 10 years for) Yoda is still superior.
He soaked up all the knowledge possible from every source he had and used it in battle, so he could do everything he heard about, in kotor he had about a 6th of his true power and he could still do many things yoda couldn't, "death field" anyone? and thats without his other knowledge, knowledge yoda wouldn't be able to defend against on the grounds that he's never been to malachor or korriban the only place you could learn about some of these powers.
How can you tell what Yoda could defend himself against ? His force defence (according to some sourcebooks) is only matched by the force defence of Ragnos and Ragnos was able to survive people that were more powerful than Revan. I don't think there is anything that could get past Yodas force defences no matter if he actualy knows it or not. We could do some long time discussion about how force defence actually works...but hell...Yoda could throw force lightning back to people or just "absorb" that things. What do you think Revan could throw at him ?
As for patience Revan is probably the most cunning patient sith ever. He doesn't give in to his anger when fighting and being the brilliant tactician he is he would remain calm and wait for yoda to make a mistake, and with revans lightsaber technique it would only be a matter of time, Revan could very well go on the offensive with either his lightsaber or with the force and exploit the defensive flaws in attaru but he wouldn't have to he could easily wait for yoda to get tired or make a mistake, look at the way he waited for the jedi boarding party to come at him on his flagship, he could've gone on the offensive if he wanted but he decided to use his head, he may not have as much wisdom but he has more intelligence in terms of book smarts and street smarts as redneck as that sounds.
Well...you can argue that but I don't think a 30 or 40 year old man can be as patient as a 900 year old creature. Yoda waited 20 years for Luke on Dagobah. Could you imagine Revan sitting around somewhere for 20 years just waiting for a person to show up ?
And Ataru as Yoda uses it has no flaws. That is the probleme here. A "normal" guy using that technique might be weak in defending. Compare somebody like Qui-Gon with Yoda. Yoda is just too fast to get hit (as I mentioned: Even without a lightsaber in his hands he can avoid to get hit when 3 Jedi Council Members try to hit him). We saw guys like Dooku (more than 60 years experience in lightsaber combat - and master of the duelist form) lose to Yoda in less than a minute. I don't want to say that Revan is not a great fighter but I for myself even won't give Tulak Hord himself a chance vs Yoda in lightsaber combat. Only because Yoda has all advantages on his side:
- he is obviously faster than anyone else
- he had more training with that weapon than anyone else (even if it just was against other Jedi for practice)
- he is small and therefore pretty hard to hit (even without his speed)
- he is completely unpredictable in his movements
Now remembering that he has a near flawless saber technique and more knowledge of force techniques particularly offensive ones, remember tthat he'd use his battle pre-cog to know where yoda would attack even before yoda would know himself, now throw in that he's ruthless and he'll use even the slightest chance he has to gain the upper hand and you'll be left with an opponent who is too powerful for even master Yoda to handle, as much as I like the green dude.
Well...on force knowledge...take a look at the things I mentioned above, also on lightsaber combat.
For battle pre-cog: Even if that technique would be flawless (and it isn't as we saw many powerful Echani die) there is still the question if Revan would be fast enough to defend against Yoda. And even if you think he is: Who do you think would get tired first ? Yoda who receives every power he has directly from the force or Revan who (partly) relies on his physical strength ?
And I don't think Revan is realy ruthless. He acts according to his goals. Guys like Mace or Yoda in his situation might have acted the same way like Revan did without using the dark side of course. I never had a picture of Revan being a ruthless and brutal Sith Lord. He has higher goals that don't match the Jedi philosophy. I guess in TPM - ROTS times he would have been one of the "lost twenty" (still respected by the Jedi without being part of the order) and not a Sith.
<<As for patience Revan is probably the most cunning patient sith ever>>
i'm not saying revan is impatient, i don't think he is but there were other sith that showed incredible patience as well. such as darth bane reconstructing the sith order. he was alone with just his orbalisks latching on to him for company, some beasts and an occasional dark side spirit.
marka ragnos - deep down inside he would've wanted to conquer the galaxy with the republic licking his boot heel, but he decided that he wanted the sith empire to grow while he was in rule for over a century.
Revan was able to use both siges of the force which would give him a huge advantage. He had Masters this dualing ability and had thr pre cog ability. To be totally honest Revan wouldn't even fight if he didn't think or know he could win so if they fought Revan would win. He'd ues any tactic however untastful, these advantage would be enough