well I'm pretty sure this thread is a lost cause, we have all made up our mind. But I'm going to try and defend Yoda again (still haven't decided, I personally don't find battle pre-cog that great, it has obviously failed, it failed Revan in detecting Malak's attack, it failed Yusanis in detecting Revan's attacks etc.)
But about your points that Revan had far more to study from, I disagree with that. He had Dantooine, Malachor V, and Korriban, and Yoda had the jedi temple. Ok, I think we all agree with that. But I noticed that you said Yoda never travelled to get information, first off, how do you know this, second, even if he didn't, that is still 4000 years after Revan, other jedi would have done that and brought the knowledge to the temple. Also, Revan couldn't have had 35 years to study, if he was 35, he would have only really started studying at the earliest at age 4. Before that you simply do not have the motivation or brainpower to do it. Even if you were Eistien, at age 2, even he could have done nothing. It would be the same with Revan. And if he started working as hard as he could at age 4, that still wouldn't be very hard since he is young, has other distractions (friends, and don't tell me he didn't have friends, he was charismatic, he had friends along with anything else that came up, injuries, taking time off etc.), and from age 4-10, he would not have had access to much stuff, the library is locked to him, he does not have a master, they get them around 12, since Revan is talented, I will say 10. So at most he had 25 years of hard training. But wait, he had to have gone on missions and of course the war, so he would have had probably 20 years hard training.
Also, someone said that Yoda never trained, that is simply not true. Like was stated earlier, he went in a practise duel with 3 jedi masters (can't remember them, but they were all good, Plo I think was one, Depa another), so he did train. And also, he was not instantly a jedi master sitting on the council. Jedi have to go on missions, Qui-Gon is a master and he went on missions, also since Yoda was training padawans, he had to go on missions to give them experience, so say 20 years training under his own master, 2 years of missions on his own, then he took on a padawan, 20 years with him. Then he went on the council, but he still took padawans often, he trained Mace and Dooku and they aren't to far apart in age, so say he trained a padawan every 50 years. So lets say he took a slight vacation lately, and only trained 16 padawans, now
16 * 20=320, so Yoda had 320 years of experince fighting and training with padawans, going on missions. Add that onto his 20 years training under his own master, 2 years own his own before he took a padawan, oh and his first padawan, you get 362 years of missions. Now tell me again that Yoda doesn't have experience.
Also, how do you know he can learn things ten times faster than normal people, I'm pretty sure in KotOR II that the masters all said that they had never seen someone learn as quick as the Exile was then, they also said it took everyone else YEARS to master them.
About Kreia's comment that Revan was the heart of the force, actually she said, "looking at him, was LIKE looking into the force." so he was very powerful, but not the force, and since when did Kreia's word become law?
Kreia's word isn't law but you have to admit she is both wise and powerful.
And yeah Yoda has experience people who say otherwise are insane. The biggest point is however he does not have as much experience in some things. Maybe in years but not in actual experience. Playing soccer for 50 years does not make you the best player, some people who play it 17 years are better.
And really the biggest point for Yoda is honestly his huge life, now I agree its nice but we have never seen anything helping him because of that. IMO he shouldn't have even fought in the PT well maybe against Sidious but with Dooku and everything he just does not look like somebody who can beat a person of Revan his caliber. Not that i'm underestimating Dooku or anything he's great but if Dooku and Sidious can both fight him into a stalemate or somehow escape then Yoda his 900 years don't give him enough.
And IMO neither of them could match Revan.
oh yes, neither of them could match Revan, and yes I was disappointed with Yoda, but remember he was 20 years away from death there, this is him in his prime, so instead of him being 900 in the duel, he is say 500 or something around there, so he still has lots of experience, around 150 years of training then, combined with still lots of knowledge, because I think that around that time he learned everything in the archives, but in his youth, I think he can take Revan
Possibly... But thats were our oppinions of Yoda his power differ I guess...
I just always thought Yoda become more powerful with age because he learned more and got a better control over the force. Still if you are right and he was better then he would have a better chance against Revan, I still wouldn't think he would win but thats mostly because we have nothing to base his power on at that time.
I say they are both equal. If you look at all the force powers available in Kotor, then you could safely assume that Yoda would have max lightside powers and universal powers. Revan(LS or DS) could have maxed out universal and LS or DS power, along with a few of the other sides added powers as well. Revan's Darkside powers would more than likely be a nonfactor in this fight, since Yoda has master force barrier. Then again, their force powers wouldn't matter since both of them could use force breach or whatever its called on each other, negating their LS defenses.
Since this is Darth Revan, he would then wail away on the undefended Yoda with his DS powers, but lets just say Yoda resists them all. Now it would come down to physical confrontation, now since both Revan and Yoda are unable to use master speed because of Force Breach, It would turn into a 30 year old physically fit Wo/man vs a 900 year old frog thing. Imagine Yoda in regular speed vs a much younger Revan in regular speed.
Force Power
Revan< or =Yoda
Lightsaber
Revan> or =Yoda
Both Lightsaber and Force Power
Revan=Yoda
Take away Force power and Leave Light Saber
Revan>Yoda
The best point for yoda is his age, as for having more to learn from, Revan had two full planets, more combat experience the jedi temple and other things he could have learned from the outer rim so he does still have more.
As for experience experience training someone with what you already know and learning something new are completley different, As for going on missions the information I have says up until the clone wars he was responsible for training people at the temple, once he trained dooku he became a master and none of the council members ever went on missions except during the clone wars and then it was usually for negotiations, so lets say he trained dooku for 20 years then he became a master and trained others at the temple because the info I have never refers to him going on missions, I'm not denying it as a possibility just saying that all I've seen is that he trained padawans at the temple and on ossus, mainly younglings at that I've also seen that yoda never participated in duels if I can find the source again I'll show you.
As far as my information tells me he also isolated himself for 100 years to study the force so that's 100 years for sure without lightsaber training, with the exception of his time with dooku, I haven't seen anything on him doing anything other then teaching younglings the basics of shii-cho.
As for Revan mastering things in much less time you here it from, zhar,vrook,vandar,dorak and kreia that he can learn in weeks what others can't in years.
Yoda's only real asset is his immense life but Revan has more real combat experience,better lightsaber technique and more force knowldege, The jedi temple couldn't have information from korriban malachor or the outer rim worlds as those places were explicitley BANNED from being visited by jedi. in kotor II it says that jedi are forbidden from traveling to korriban. So while training padawans is great he doesn't have the sources, the actual combat experience or certain other things Revan does.
Finally as for battle pre-cog failing in detecting malaks betrayal, he was busy with deciding how he was going to anhilate the jedi boarding party and using ot to predict their movements, and he simply wasn't looking for betrayal beforehand, as for yussanis ability Revans was greater then he could ever imagine by a lot there's no real comparison.
Good support though darkstar you're a credit to these forums
Originally posted by Darth Infidus
I say they are both equal. If you look at all the force powers available in Kotor, then you could safely assume that Yoda would have max lightside powers and universal powers. Revan(LS or DS) could have maxed out universal and LS or DS power, along with a few of the other sides added powers as well. Revan's Darkside powers would more than likely be a nonfactor in this fight, since Yoda has master force barrier. Then again, their force powers wouldn't matter since both of them could use force breach or whatever its called on each other, negating their LS defenses.Since this is Darth Revan, he would then wail away on the undefended Yoda with his DS powers, but lets just say Yoda resists them all. Now it would come down to physical confrontation, now since both Revan and Yoda are unable to use master speed because of Force Breach, It would turn into a 30 year old physically fit Wo/man vs a 900 year old frog thing. Imagine Yoda in regular speed vs a much younger Revan in regular speed.
Force Power
Revan< or =Yoda
Lightsaber
Revan> or =YodaBoth Lightsaber and Force Power
Revan=YodaTake away Force power and Leave Light Saber
Revan>Yoda
Yes kotor would be more even, I forgot Revan had master speed which would make him just as fast if not faster as he's naturally faster without the force, the thing is we're comparing full power revan so add that to Revan having crazy force powers from over two planets worth of information, the jedi archive and all the ancient sith with techniques that can't be defended against and you have a winner.
Wow...tons of new posts here. Well...I don't want to do a quote massacre here so I will just try to focus on the most important things (from my point of view).
on sources and learning speed
As far as I get it most people believe that Revan had a greater amount of sources to learn from. Since I like Revan and Yoda very much and don't want anyone of them to be overrated or underrated (to keep that fight "fair"😉 I just will hang on to the things I know about them or things you might see as truth.
We know that the main archieve of the Jedi Order was destroyed just a few years before Revan started with his Jedi training. I personally think that was a great lost of ancient Jedi knowledge. So we have to assume that his knowledge about the Jedi basically came from his masters and the archive on Dantooine.
In sheer size the archieve of the Jedi on Coruscant is bigger than the one on Dantooine is (just compare what can be seen in KOTOR and in AOTC) so I have to assume that they have more knowledge stored in it. And still there is another part of the archieve (or another archieve) that only the Jedi Council members had access to. That is clearly stated in the ROTS novel. And still Yoda had access to everything stored on board of the Cu'unthor - basically another Jedi Academy archieve.
That alone would give Yoda an advantage when it comes to knowledge of lightside powers but now we have the next thing coming up. Yoda knows about the "one master, one apprentice"- Sith rule. That does actually mean that he had been confronted with Sith in his earlier life (since we know from the films that their were no known sith for a several hundret years) or had access to some Sith sources (and he had to get them from somewhere). So very likely he had confronted Sith Lords / apprentices and survived it. Since I do strongly believe that the Sith became weaker with the force from the Battle of Ruusan on at least (the evidence from the films and the EU clearly speaks for my oppinion I think) we have to assume that Yoda had fought people that actually were more powerful than Sidious was so he might have a greater knowledge about the dark side than some people here actually think.
So much for the sources. No lets have a look on learning speed. Revan is a outstanding learner. No doubt about that. He learns fast and totally is into it.
But still you have to think about some limits to his time learning:
- during his time in the Jedi Order he had to go through the "normal" training. That costs time.
- after that he had the Mandalorian Wars (fighting and commanding his forces). That also costs time
- he had to train Malak to a certain degree - also takes time
- he had to control the Star Forge - costs time
- than he had the Jedi Civil War and again fighting and commanding
Just that whole stuff takes time to do. And still you have to get your knowledge from some sources. Reading costs time, learning from a holocron even needs more time since that people use ancient Sith language (you have to learn that first) and the speed the informations are given to you is limited by the talking speed of the person whos knowledge is stored within the holocron while the information you receive might be limited by what the person that created the holocron wanted to tell you (and Sith are not known to share their greatest powers and abilities).
I'd say I won't underestimate Revan when saying that he knew almost everything from the archieve on Dantooine + some things his masters told him. But he just scratched the surface of the Sith knowledge on Malachor. As much as I like him but when it comes to knowledge of dark side powers or Sith magic he obviously is no Ragnos, Sadow or Exar Kun. I don't know if that's a question of knowledge or just a matter of fact that he is not as ruthless as those guys and he probably wouldn't blow up planets or entire sunsystem according to his needs (you see...the LS ending of KOTOR is the canonical one !)
Still that would leave me with the conclusion that Yoda actually knows more because he had more time to study. And please remember the folowing point: Using the force is not limited by the things the people can do in the computer games. That are names for certain powers so that you can categorize and use certain abilities. The force is more than that.
If you want to do that according to the games give Yoda knowledge about ALL the lightside powers that are in the game. Every "destructive" ability can be easily countered with force heal (master). And I don't have any doubt that Yoda actually has a greater amount of force power compared to Revan.
lightsaber fighting
Well...to give some decent reason here I just rewatched the fight of Yoda vs Dooku in AotC again (picture by picture). The fight lasts for 30 seconds (first lightsaber contact -> last lightsaber contact)
In that time Yoda hits 20 attacks on Dooku, does 9 360 degree turns, jumps 13 times and he just blocks Dooku for 5 times and guess what. ALL of that blocks are completely useless because that strikes never even got close to hit him. And you even can see him change the direction of his jumps in the air (there is a jump where he jumps from right side infront of Dooku to the air on the left side behind Dooku, flys back to Dookus right side and lands on the left side in front of Dooku - so he changed the direction of his jump in the air for 2 times). And see...a master of the form that is the "ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat" using "extreme precision" can't even get close to hit Yoda. So what could Revan do ?
Yoda doesn't even need his lightsaber to defend himself. He just avoids every strike Dooku tries on him. I guess Revan won't do that much better versus Yoda no matter what kind of lightsaber form (even something he designed for himself) he used.
And somebody stated all that jumping around would Yoda make vunerable for force attacks. If you take a close look on the duel between Sidious and Yoda in ROTS you can see Yoda jumping up to Sidious and Sidious uses force lightning on Yoda at the same moment Yoda lands. Still Yoda can deflect it immediatly (although he loses his lightsaber). Not that you even would get a chance using the force against Yoda if he fights you (not without losing some bodyparts though).
on Yodas motivations / goals / philosophy
Yoda always acts according to the rules of the Jedi Order. The rule that is above all others is to protect life. Whenever Yoda is engaged in combat that has to be the highest goal for him. I don't think he wanted to kill Dooku or Sidious. Both deaths would not have aided him very well. Dooku was the only one knowing who the Dark Lord of the Sith actualy was - killing him would have been no use for Yoda. Killing Sidious - as I have already mentioned - also wouldn't help Yoda. Yes...I know he makes some statements that could make people think he just wants to kill the Sith.
Actually we don't know what he was planning. Just kill Anakin and Sidious ? There is no logic in that because of the consequences. Still it is senseless because they split up. Yoda and Obi-Wan could have both go for Sidious and probably kill him or they could have both travelled to Mustafar, kill Anakin and wait for Sidious to show up and then kill him. There are only two possible reasons why Yoda would send Obi-Wan to Mustafar and face Sidious alone:
a) He wants to keep Sidious busy while Anakin is getting killed by Obi-Wan leaving the Sith Lord without any apprentice (Sith would have been destroyed; Sidious reign would have be over a few years later) or capture Sidious thereby revealing everything Sidious had told to the Senate was a lie.
b) He planed to turn Anakin back to the light side again and thought the only one having a chance to do so would be Obi-Wan alone since he always had great influence on Anakin.
If Yoda would have wanted to kill the Sith he would probably have teamed up with Obi-Wan and killed Anakin and Sidious one after the other. I think he simply doesn't want to kill Sidious. I mean:
- he could throw Sidious across the entire room. Why doesn't he just throw Sidious to the ground of the Senate chamber ? On equal ground he probably is the superior swordman.
- whe saw that he could throw that senate pods in a way Sidious can't throw them back. Why doesn't he just smack Sidious with one of that things ?
- before their fight "realy" starts he cuts Sidious escape way out of that room. Why doesn't he just keep Sidious in that room and kill him there (he could have done that - again that would have been a "fair" fight).
The only explanation I have for that is that he wants to keep Sidious busy. I have no doubt that he would be able to sense Anakins death through the force. In AotC he immediatly sensed when Anakins mother died and Anakin was overwhelmed by anger. Why shouldn't he be able to sense Anakins death or the death of Obi-Wan ?
And a last reason for my idea: He planned his escape from the Senate before he went to face Sidious. Why should he have done that if it was his intention to kill or capture Sidious and he had no doubt he could do that ?
Keeping that in mind I'd say we never saw Yoda using everything he could use in the films and thereby I would say he is probably able to defeat Revan using everything he can.
Revan had all those sith holocrons and horded all that knowledge, but even if Yoda could have all that knowledge I believe Yoda thinks he knows enough about the darkside and doesn't really care to know its ancient mysteries.
In KOTOR the jedi masters always tell you that knowledge of the Ancient Sith corrupts you. Kreia tells Atris something like that when they're talking. Kreia did drop three masters in one shot, but I don't think Kreia would drop Yoda like that.
The argument about flaws in Yoda's form, because Vrook and Qui-Gon were both killed and they used it. Nai Fohl explains that pretty good to me. A human using Attaru is nothing likle Yoda using Attaru. Qui-Gon and Vrook don't jump around and flip and twirl like Yoda. About Sids and Dooku holding Yoda off. They were on defence almost the whole time against Yoda. You argue that Revan would locate a flaw in the form, but Yoda looks like he attacks in rapid flurries just waiting for you to mess up and then he'll cut you down when you do make a mistake. Both fighters are looking for a weakness.
The argument about knowledge and war experience is different with Yoda and Revan. Revan goes for war experience and plundering tombs for knowledge. Yoda doesn't, Yoda even says "wars not make one great." Yoda doesn't believe wars make you great, Revan does. Different personalitys, I think Yoda did all he wanted and didn't care about all the other stuff, while Revan wanted everything.
Frank Oz says in an interview with ET( I think ET) "that even though Yoda's more powerful now, its harder for him to do things like he did back in his younger days." I think as a force users all you can do is gain more knowledge of the force as you get older, but you're still getting physically older, you can't help your age. One reason why Yoda puts so much effort into his fights with Dooku and Sids and struggles, he knows he can do, its just not as easy in his older age. That is way Yoda in his prime would be not neccesarily powerful enough to take Revan but strong enough to take Revan or more capable of taking Revan. We see Revan reach his prime in the game and then he goes on to fight the Ancient Sith Empire. What did Yoda try and tackle in his prime. Nobody knows.
well done Nai Fohl, I agree with everything you said
oh and Frobo, about you thinking Yoda isolated himself for 100 years, you got that from the NJO books, and it actually never says that, it is when Jacen is defending him not using the force to the other jedi he says, "for all we know Yoda could have spent 100 years of his life meditating on the force" and we know that he didn't do that because he was the senior member of the council, advisor to the the chancellor, representative to the senate, jedi trainer etc.
Sources, as much as yoda had Revan had two PLANETS worth of info, stuff from the outer rim and beyond as well as the jedi temple. If you look at the math I posted, and what kreia said about him as well as what the other masters said he learned all there was to learn fromhis sources which were much greater, the jedi archive was great but it was no where close to entire planets filled with knowledge.
I will say this again yoda simply would have no knowledge of some of the powers Revan had as he found them places yoda didn't know about or was banned from going to. Also we come back to the fact some powers can't be deflected. Also Revan has like 20 times as much force knowledge after KOTOR as he has during it.
As for force heal, you'll have trouble healing while someone is choking you, or draining the life force from you or slashing at you so fast that all you see is a blur. Revan simply had more sources to learn from and an extrordinarily fast learning ability as for yoda being stronger with the force, Revan was the heart of the force and possesed numerous artifacts that sky rocketed his force power.
As for lightsaber technique:
Revan is just as fast if not faster it's called master speed so yoda's speed is a non-factor, as for his acrobatics Revan would know where he's going before he even thought of going there so much for that.
Now throw in the fact that Revans form has practically no weaknesses and that attaru does, Kreia says it, it's shown in both the maul qui-gon fight,the ob1 maul fight and the vrook exile fight. While it excels at offense, it's known for a weakness against force attacks and defending agaisnt an offensive opponent it's a known fact about the style and don't give me this yoda's attaru has no flaws, there's no such thing as yoda's attaru or qui-gons attaru there's just attaru and the flaw in the style remains no matter how well you've mastered it, Attaru is not perfect, not even close it has trouble defendidng against opponents, Revan has fought countless attaru using opponents, knows it's weaknesses and will exploit them, The dooku and sidious fights are irrelevant, comparing them to revan is like comparing a whitebelt to a shaolin master. Revans just as fast has battle pre-cog and his form has less flaws, not only that he's fought people using yoda's form before and knows how to beat it he's also a master at killing jedi. Attaru as it is always pressing the attack is not meant to defend, and the person using it has little chance to defend especially if it's up against someone who knows exactly how the person's going to try to defend.
Ultimatley Revans just as fast, still has more force knowledge has a better lightsaber form, attaru is flawed in ways that Revan will exploit and has battle pre-cog to know yoda's every movement before he thinks of it himself. In the end Yoda won't be able to block all of revans force attacks, and Revans lightsaber form and ability is superior.