Originally posted by GalacticStorm There is a difference between just being a primal force, a force of creation and THE primal force of creation. Phoenix is called the primal force of creation because it is the the force from which all of creation originates, it means phoenix was there from the beginning and it made creation, it is the original source from which all of creation came from. It is the original force dedicated to creation That is the definition of that line. That line alone tells you not that phoenix is one with evrything , but that is responsible for the creation of everything. Your Michael example just isnt good enough it really isnt. Together both Michael and Lucifer have the power to create a multiverse. Together they can accomplish what marvels primal force of creation has and does. Individually there is no evidence of them doing so in the comics or off panel. They were not responsible for the creation of the main multiverse, the 'preacherverse' they are merely powerful beings who together have the capability to create their own jointly. In marvel phoenix is the force that creates, maintains and destroys the main multiverse of TOAA. The fact that Phoenix is called the primal force of creation second only to TOAA tells you that it is the real deal, this tells you that it is right at the top of the hierarchy where a force with such a role should be. Just like Michael and Lucifer are second to the presence and jointly have the power to create a multiverse, so to does phoenix in marvel, but singlehandedly.
What is the meaning of “Primal”? huh?
Primal – Primary; Being first in time; primeval; Of first importance.
That’s what Primal means. It doesn’t mean anything about being the source of everything else. Phoenix is THE Primal Force of Creation because it STARTED the creation of everything. This goes well with the issue you gave me about Phoenix jumpstarting creation. See, Phoenix only started it, she didn’t create everything. Phoenix is the most important(Primal) because without her, there’s no one who would provide that first spark. There’s no one who would start the process for the others to follow. Just like the analogy of the Inventors of the first automobile. Because of them, the age of cars began. They jumpstarted the creation of it. But does that mean that they created/or can create every single car up to the present?
And what are you blabbing about Michael and Lucifer not creating the main multiverse? They are the ones who CREATED the DC Multiverse. It was explicitly stated in Lucifer #26.
And what are you going on about the preacherverse? It has nothing to do with these particular discussion of ours.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm The issues of classic Xmen you need to read are 8, 42 and 43. You havent quite got it right. Phoenix says that ""all that is I am"" which as you know is referring to her being one with everything. Phoenix also says that """all that is isnt not touched by her"" which can be taken as either again she is one with everything and her influence and power extends over all, or you can take it as there isnt anything in creation that phoenix hasnt had involvement with. You're quite correct Eternity is the embodiment of everything that is in a universe the stars, the matter, energy etc he is an actuality, one single reality. He is the embodiment of that, all of those things made flesh. It does NOT for one second mean that he created all of that, (where did that come from? I havent said that you've just not taken in my points properly, but im about to show you where you went wrong and also what you havent taken into consideration, but more on that later) , but just that he is all of that so it is far from a contradiction on my part but instead both a misinterpretation and misunderstanding on yours.
Oh c’mon GS. Stop pretending. Im pretty sure your contradicting yourself. What I said is very simple, and you cant understand it?
Phoenix – One with all that is = created everything in existence, including every universe in the Marvel Multiverse(according to you)
Eternity – One with all that is in a universe = created the universes in the Marvel Multiverse.
That’s a contradiction. Its as simple as that. Im just using your logic here, dude.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm It sure does Synch, you just misunderstood what i was trying to show you, i guess i should have spelled it out. I am well aware of the meaning of jumpstart. This was merely a smaller part of the picture i was trying to paint for you, showing just how phoenix far phoenix is involved with creation and that it comes from many, many sources. You already know that phoenix is responsible for the creation of all of the abstracts in existence, those which embody the physical matter of a reality, the infinite space in between, concepts such as love and hate, death and time etc My quote was merely to show you that phoenix initiates the first spark and as you now know, goes on to fully create the rest of existence, everything outside the white hot room.
Look Above.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm If you read my arguments properly then you would see that i said the issues of F4 state that phoenix is responsible for the creation of all of the abstracts in existence, all of creation. What you're forgetting to acknowledge Synchro is that eternity is the embodiment of a universe, he is everything within that universe as previously mentioned, he is also a creation of phoenix. A multiverse is made up of many, many universes, many, many eternities. Abstracts are just marvels way of doing things, accept that Synchro, it says nothing negative about Phoenix at all. If anything its a positive that phoenixes universes arent just lifeless realities but instead sentient beings. Another abstract is Infinity who is eternities sibling. Infinity is the infinite space between eternities matter, his stars, planets and his galaxies. Other abstracts for example are Love, hate, kronos and lord order and master chaos and death. F4 confirms that phoenix is responsible for the creation of all of these abstracts and there alternate reality counterparts. Phoenix is indeed responsible for the making of marvels multiverse.What are you going on about? The abstracts are sentient beings they are a form of life(life also refers to that which are perecived have its own distinct existence, not just fauna and flora Synchy lol), it is marvels way. This is just another part of the picture i was painting for you. Not intended to prove everything all by its lonesome. Think outside of the box sonny. What Eternity was talking about is that after the end of all that is, which phoenix brings about, resulting in nothingness, phoenix remakes creation, it remakes the universes( the eternitites who just happens to be an abstract Synchy) and everything else. Phoenix is the assurance of that.
I dont quite know if youre purposely being stubborn or youre really not comprehending both what im saying and/or the way of marvel. The abstracts do NOT create those concepts for goodness sake, they ARE those concepts. They are the living embodiment of those concepts. If those abstracts are killed then that which they embody is absent from that reality. Hence my earlier example of when the Beyonder killed Death and then nothing could die. Or when Thanos got rid of Eternity and he had to become the embodiment of the universe to fill the void. It is already established that phoenix created those abstracts and so brings about these concepts with their creation. Your theory is very wrong its an established marvel thing whatever you say or think will not change that. Please PM someone to ask if need be just stop this folly Synchy.
A Sentient Being embodying a Concept is a teeny weeny bit different than the Concept itself. Even if Eternity embodies a universe, he’s still a sentient being that has consciousness. Meaning he still has life. The Concepts Im talkin about is the IDEAS ITSELF, not some sentient being that embodies it. Im talking about the idea of time, love, hate, etc. which has no life, which has no one embodying it. Its the idea itself. Because that’s what Lucifer did. He created that IDEAS ITSELF, as oppose to creating sentient beings that embodies that ideas
And please stop making excuses such as “Marvels way of doing things”. Just stop.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Michael and Lucifer arent responsible for the creation of the proper multiverse are they? But merely Lucifers side one which was a test by the Presence. Therefore neither of them are the primal force of creation. Jointly they can create a multiverse like the phoenix can, however they are not responsible for the creation of everything beyond the white hot room, or heaven in Dc terms. They are not the origin, the source from which all life in the proper multiverse came from. It seems in DC that the persence hasnt assigned this role to any outside force he does it himself. Michael and Lucifer are just his favourites who have the power together to do similar things. However neither of them are the primal force of creation. Michael is the one that builds and breaks, fair enough he along with Lucifer can build a multiverse however they are not the primal force of creation ok?
Too bad, your already wrong in your first sentence. Michael and Lucifer created the DC Multiverse, the Proper Multiverse, read Lucifer #26. Ive already said that countless times on other threads, its already common knowledge. And the Presence’s test wasn’t about Lucifer’s Multiverse. His test was about all the things that Michael and Lucifer went through in the DC Multiverse starting from the creation of DC up to the present day so that Presence can decide on who will succeed him as the next ruler of the DC Multiverse.
And Ive already explained the meaning of the Primal Force of Creation. It is NOT where all things originate. It does NOT mean it created everything. Its merely the starting process of creating. It’s the one that triggers the creation of something.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Ive just explained to you more fully what the primal force of creation is, Michael or Lucifer are neither, they are powerful beings who can emulate some of the forces feats together however they are not the source or origin from which all life, all reality of the proper multiverse came from.
No. Ive just explained to you what Primal Force of Creation means.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm You still have yet to prove Lucifer is one with everything in his multiverse so you cant really say that. The prseence is one with everything in Dc because he/it retains the role of primal force of creation in DC he hasnt made an entity to fulfill that job description as TOAA has in Marvel. Michael even if he could become one with the presences multiverse isnt really saying much when under his own power he cant create a multiverse. You need to prove Michael can even do that in the first place and even if he did it doeant change anything, he or Lucifer arent the primal force of creation and individually they cant create a multiverse.
No. I have proven that Lucifer is one with everything in his Multiverse. Ive already made several points why. To which you didn’t counter all of it. Again, a Multiverse/Universe is no good if there’s no one holding it together. Its no good if there’s nothing that flows through it to keep it alive. It will collapse.
And as I said, Michael and Lucifer created the DC Multiverse. The Presence didn’t create it. He let the brothers create it. That’s another reason why Im saying that Michael has the capability to be one with the DC Multiverse. The only reason that he cant is because of The Presence overruling it. I mean he did put the essence of God into every atom of existence to keep DC from collapsing. If Michael can put the essence of God himself into something, isnt it common sense that he’ll be able to do the same thing on himself, easily?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm The bigger,grander, more complex something is, the harder it is to form, the more energy it takes to make. My example with the U.S was to show that even though the U.S probably has the room to accommodate the rest of the worlds population, that doesnt mean the U.S is as big, or as complex a land mass, or as powerful as the rest of the worlds nations combined into one. Until you have proof a scan for example that says something like, lucifer created a multiverse just as big, or bigger than the presences one, then you have lost on that point.Lets just move on Synchy.
OMG! Even a 5 year old kid would be able to get what Im saying. Lucifer accomodating every single living being from a proper multivese into his own is PROOF ENOUGH that it’s a proper Multiverse.
And when did we ever start comparing The US to the combined nations of the World? I though were just discussing the US against very single country in the world? I mean that’s what were doing in Lucifer’s case, right? comparing his multiverse into ONE proper Multiverse, NOT the combined multiverses of the omniverse?
Plus the fact that they created the DC Multiverse which is a PROPER Multiverse. What does that tell you?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Right Synchro im going to post your quote again and im going to break it down for you as much as i can. Ive studied English literature to a high level you obviously havent from your comments. There is no evidence at all supporting what you claim the following quote means:"""""""""""""""""And in another place, the Lightbringer turns on new-minted wings. ENACTING HIS NAME, weaving the luminous clouds-stuff of a new cosmos into suns""""""""""
The quote says the LIGHTBRINGER turns on NEW MINTED WINGS. Ok? Lightbringer is another name for Lucifer that comes from the time when jesus was explaining how God took away Lucifers wings and cast him out of heaven with a blazing flash. Jesus says that Lucifer fell like lightning hence the term lightbringer. Lightbringer is used cleverly here as its not only referring to that incident but also how Lucifer is in the process of creating a star and so bringing light. As for the new minted wings, to mint something is to form something newly. This is linking back to Lucifer having his wings taken by God when he was cast out, well now this quote is saying he's turning on his newly formed wings. Wings that he's got since that incident. (Whether or not that biblical event occurred in the Dc comic is irrelevant, the writer is merely acknowledging the history behind the Lucifer character) The quote then goes on to say that he is eneacting his name. Enacting something is to act it out. Lucifers name means both Morning star and also light bringer. So to act out his name would be to bring light. Lucifer is at the time creating suns. Ther really is no debating this. Its simple enough if youve studied english literature.
*sigh*. Look at Lucifer #26. It was explained there how he got his name. It was said that at the beginning there was only the Presence. Then he created 2 angels who, shortly afterwards, created the entire Multiverse. The name of the angels are the Archangel Michael and Archangel Samael(Lucifer) the “Lightbringer”. Again that was said in Lucifer #26, He’s already named the lightbringer ever since he existed. Lucifer Morningstar IS the name that he adopted after he fell from heaven. Read the entire Lucifer Comic book. And he wasn’t just seen creatng stars, he was shown creating everything(i.e his version of Earth, other planets and other stars). This was in Lucifer #15 when Elaine was accidentally brought to Lucifer’s Multiverse. There, she saw Lucifer holding Earth and noticed that the shape of the galaxy for which that version of Earth is placed is different that the shape of the Milky Way Galaxy.
So I don’t quite really understand what your saying. You just brought those names of Lucifer because he is creating the sun/star? Well too bad that logic of yours irrelevant, because he was also shown to be creating planets, galaxies, UNIVERSES too.
And about the enacting thing, again when Michael put the essence of God into every atom of existence in DC. It was said as “Enacting Yahweh’s name, which in turn flowed through every vein, every atom of existence” read Lucifer #46 NUFF SAID!!!
Originally posted by GalacticStorm All that means in reference to Lucifer or Michael is that theyre constants. That they were there in the beginning and that they will be there in the end. Same with Phoenix. However we've now already established that they re NOT the primal force of creation. This changes nothing. All you've done is flesh out my previous explanation.
Ive already provided you evidence of it. Ive already provided evidence that explicitly states what Alpha and Omega means, but you still don’t believe it. That really shows that your in denial and your stubborn.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm What Phoenix has above the brothers individually is that it created exsitence singlehandedly whereas they require each other. It is now quie clear that the brothers arent the primal force of creation in DC as Phoenix is in Marvel, they are merely incredibly powerful beings who together have the power to create a multiverse, however they are not the origin of everything beyond heaven or in marvels case of creation beyond the White hot room. Phoenix is also one with all of creation, she is the heart and soul of it all which is why she is referred to as tipeherth(look it up) her essence permeates it all and she has power over it all. Over the proper multiverse not a side creation.
Nope. It is quite clear that Phoenix created all life ONLY. She didn’t create everything in existence. Sorry GS, but you havent proven anything.
And again, look at the TRUE meaning of Primal Force of Creation.
Synchro & Galactic Storm,
Holy moly fudgers! How the HECK can you guys write so much?! It must've taken you hours! This has become a debate between Lucifer and Phoenix and you two are the ones battling it out while the rest of us are totally trying to figure out your essays. Were you two on the speech&debate club or something?
Originally posted by eternitygoddess
Synchro & Galactic Storm,Holy moly fudgers! How the HECK can you guys write so much?! It must've taken you hours! This has become a debate between Lucifer and Phoenix and you two are the ones battling it out while the rest of us are totally trying to figure out your essays. Were you two on the speech&debate club or something?
I know, seriously. They write a lot. The most I've ever written was about a paragraph and a half, but they write pages. That's just insane.
Originally posted by demigawd
The problem with Marvel gods is the fact that the hierarchy isn't consistent. It varies from writer to writer. I remember during the Infinity Saga, it was said the Infinity Gauntlet used to be a being who was "all that is", but grew bored and created the abstracts. This being later destroyed the abstracts because among them were people like Mephisto, who was evil. It then committed suicide, which created "everything", including the previously destroyed beings.In Avengers, Thor, IW and Guardians of the Galaxy, nothing is beyond the Living Tribunal (who is the same in all realities and universes) except TOAA. Phoenix has alternately gone unmentioned or shown as being something of a cosmic garbage man.
In the IG saga, it was believed that the Infinity Being died and created the everything including the Infinity Gems. LT chose to not intervene. In Infinity Watch #1 Warlock was on trial. He had the Gauntlet and LT was proven to be more powerful. Every being there acknowledge LT's might and his task of representing TOAA.
TOAA is at the top of the hierarchy. LT and most top abstract agreed on this. Either the Infinity Being is TOAA who died and created everything including LT, or the IB is a different being or just a belief.
LT is top only after TOAA.
In the Fantastic Four, there's a concept of Heaven, presided over by Stan Lee and a far more biblical order than suggested anywhere else.
Um no. Stan Lee isn't GOD. And give me the issue number on this.
In Swamp Thing, the hierarchy is TOTALLY different. Ditto with Ghost Rider.
Swamp Thing is DC.
I give the nod to the DC Brothers because at least they're consistent, lol. And they have better on panel feats. [/B]
What DC brothers? Lucifer and Michael? Or the Marvel Vs. DC Brothers? Firstly, its a crossover. Secondly, it was reconned - LT and Spectre toyed with them both.
Originally posted by Beyonder
In the IG saga, it was believed that the Infinity Being died and created the everything including the Infinity Gems.
Yes, that's what I said.
LT chose to not intervene. In Infinity Watch #1 Warlock was on trial. He had the Gauntlet and LT was proven to be more powerful. Every being there acknowledge LT's might and his task of representing TOAA.
Agreed.
TOAA is at the top of the hierarchy. LT and most top abstract agreed on this. Either the Infinity Being is TOAA who died and created everything including LT, or the IB is a different being or just a belief.
Agreed. The Infinity Being was described to pretty much be TOAA. The IG only represented a portion of IB's might, which is why it could be overrided by LT.
LT is top only after TOAA.
Agreed. I'm not sure if you were disagreeing or elaborating with those points.
Um no. Stan Lee isn't GOD. And give me the issue number on this.
Last issue of the Unthinkable storyline, I believe. Where Thing dies and Reed builds a dimensional tranporter to HEAVEN to retrieve his soul. There's a Michael who guards the gates of Heaven, angels who don't seem especially powerful, and God...Stan Lee.
Swamp Thing is DC.
My bad...I meant Man-Thing. You can see how I can confuse the two.
What DC brothers? Lucifer and Michael? Or the Marvel Vs. DC Brothers? Firstly, its a crossover. Secondly, it was reconned - LT and Spectre toyed with them both.
No, Lucifer and Michael.
Originally posted by demigawd
Lucifer and Michael are also aspects of TOAA...at least their version of it. In terms of role and importance, it seems to be a tie. The only other thing you can do is go by actual feats.
Not excatly as PF is. It's different. PF takes this.
And Infinity Being is not TOAA, we ever saw TOAA, we can only assume he is God and his power is absolute.