Using your analogy of a game. If a team is losing, and they get everyone they know to help them, don't they also lose by default?
After Yoda took his fall, palps had the troopers search for Yoda. Palps didn't do anything himself except call for back up. He didn't want to fight Yoda and that was clear. He wanted the clones to do what he couldn't, just like order 66.
Palpatine is too badass to do the dirty work himself 😛
I get what you're saying... without the troopers the fight may have gone on. Palpatine's 'victory' was part luck - when the two of them go flying away from eachother after their lightning fight the are thrown back equal ammounts. Yoda was standing on the edge of the pod causing him to be thrown off the pod to the ground. Palpatine was able to grab a rail. But Palpatine was able to do this because he had gained the 'high ground' (something we don't see him doing in the film) which meant Yoda had to jump up at Palps where he was ready to attack...
I don't mean to ruin the movie for you Anomaly in case you haven't seen it yet, but YODA LIVES ALSO !!! How do you justify your line of thinking? Yoda lost because he didn't kill palps? Hmmm.. .go watch the movie again before blatently contradicting yourself ok. Yoda didn't win or lose, and Palps didn't win or lose. The duel was a draw. Both fighters did well, AND BOTH LIVED !!! The thread isn't about who won the fight, because neither did. The thread is more about who you think is the stronger of the two. Who is more powerful basically, using the fight as a framework to justify it. But to say that Palps won and Yoda lost because he says "failed have I" is just plain dumb. The word failed, in no way implies a loss. I just don't know what part of english is eluding you, but I can't make it any more clear then that.
Im going to respond point to point.
First off, contradicting myself? Perhaps you might understand the word contradict before you throw it out there, because no where in my argument did I say anything contradictory.
Yes Yoda lives, Yoda went there to Kill Palpatine. He failed.
Yoda did lose, he failed, by terms and definition to fail means to not succeed. Lets review this in simple logical terms.
Yoda’s objective = To kill Palpatine
Did Yoda kill Palpatine? No.
Therefore Yoda FAILED to kill palpatine
To fail at something is to not succeed at it.
In a contest of 2 people there is a winner and a loser, is there not? Other then in the event of a draw, this, is a near impossibility in terms of a contest containing only 2 people.
Now Palpatine’s Objective = PREFERABLY to kill Yoda (not a required premise)
To not get killed so that he can rule his new empire. (Required)
Did Palpatine live to rule his new empire? Yes. He did not however kill Yoda, although a preferable premise not a required one.
So let’s review.
Yoda->failed to achieve his goal
Palpatine-> while not achieving his preferred Goal, still achieved his primary goal.
So then, if in a contest, person (a) fails to achieve his goal and person (b) achieves his goal.
Then Person (b) is the winner of the contest.
Simple enough? I think so.
Secondly, you say that palps would use the enviroment to his advantage wherever they fight? I don't know where you are getting that, since the movie obviously pointed out that Yoda's force powers are also very powerful. He force pushed Palps into the wall, making him scurry to get up and try to flee the battle. Then Yoda tossed one of the senate pods BACK UP at palps against gravity, which obviously impressed the hell out of palps, given that look he gave him when he did it. Lastly, palps best weapon, his force lightning, was tossed back in his face.
First off your first two sentences have no connection whatsoever.
“Secondly, you say that palps would use the enviroment to his advantage wherever they fight? I don't know where you are getting that, since the movie obviously pointed out that Yoda's force powers are also very powerful”
Humm, I dunno about you but Yoda’s force powers and the fact that Palpatine would and could use any environment to his advantage have no connection at all.
“I don't know where you are getting that”
Getting what? So your saying he wouldn’t use it to his advantage wherever they may be? Perhaps you mean that Yoda is equally able to manipulate the environment? I dunno, you tell me what you meant.
Next. Yes Yoda threw a pod at palps AGAINST gravity. I don’t know where you get the fact that palps was impressed? He made a “huh” kinda face. But, HE LET YODA DO IT. Had he not wanted Yoda to do it they would have fought over control of the pod, which they didn’t. Palps let him throw it back.
I might add that Palpatine was laughing while Yoda caught the pod. Hardly an “impressed at someone” feature.
Palps “best weapon” was “tossed back at his face” yea, true. Yoda’s force lightning deflection abilities are quite good as we saw. But you must have noticed that the ensuing force “wave” of their fighting over control got Yoda far greater then it did Palpatine. So in essence, Yoda’s “tossing it back at his face” caused Yoda to lose. Hummm, not such a good point to use to show Yoda is superior.
Again, go watch the movie, and you will see for yourself that palps was shocked as hell at Yoda's power during the whole duel. He was better with his saber, CLEARLY, and he was at least palps equal in force powers. The force push, the dodging and tossing back the senate pods up against gravity, and the blocking the lightning WITH HIS BARE HANDS and tossing it back in palps face.
CLEARLY? Clearly to whom? I didn’t see ANYTHING that made it clear that Yoda was better with a saber then Palpatine. Please explain a situation where it was “clear” because I’ve seen the movie…ohh….25 times at least now (bootleg copy), and I don’t see anything.
Yes, I would agree that Yoda and Palpatine are probably pretty equal in force abilities. Better with a saber? No proof at all for that argument.
I might add that Palps didn’t seem all to concerned during the fight, given his continuous laughing and smiling.
Continued from above...And also, don't forget that Palps certainly didn't chase after Yoda when he fell. You say that because Yoda didn't try to go find him again, that is proof that he lost? Palps asked his fuking troopers to go find Yoda for him. Isn't that an admission that he needed all the help he could get? Please... Palps clearly showed during the duel, and after the duel, that he wanted no part of a rematch with Yoda.
Yes it's true that Yoda didn't persue Palps again, but at least he has a good reason. Being that palps has the entire empire protecting him. Yoda has... himself only. You can hardly fault the guy for not persuing someone who he knows he would never even get close to again without having to fight an army.
And NO, Obi wan didn't sneak around palps own ship and get in the same room with him. Sneaking around grevious's ship is entirely different then sneaking onto Palps ship, and finding him alone in his room to fight. Give me a fuking break dude. Vader sensed Obi wan when he wasen't even on the ship yet. Don't you think Palps would be able to sense Yoda is close, and he would have surrounded himself with guards?
Yes Palps did not chase him after Because Yoda left before Palps could recover himself.
Yes Palps asked his “****ig troopers” to go find Yoda. Because if you had paid attention he “Sensed Lord Vader was in Danger” he had more important things to do then battle Yoda all day. The life of his apprentice is a big one on his list I’d say. So no its not an admission of “needing all the help he could get”
"after the duel, that he wanted no part of a rematch with Yoda."
Of course he didn’t want to fight Yoda again! Would you? He rules an empire, something he worked hard at getting. He’d rather not lose it. This is the reason he tried to leave before they started fighting, he didn’t want to lose his power.
"Yes it's true that Yoda didn't persue Palps again, but at least he has a good reason. Being that palps has the entire empire protecting him. Yoda has... himself only"
Did you read what I said before? Yoda didn’t pressure palps again for the same reason palps wouldent want to fight Yoda again. Fear of losing. Not because he would have an “army” protecting him.
"And NO, Obi wan didn't sneak around palps own ship and get in the same room with him. Sneaking around grevious's ship is entirely different then sneaking onto Palps ship, and finding him alone in his room to fight"
Now this part I read and couldent wait to get too. Let me first say that you might READ my other argument before responding to it, because nowhere did I say anything about Grievious’s ship, did you read anything? Because I clearly said DEATH STAR.
Give you a “****ing break”? no.
lets review again.
Now the empire constructs its most dangerous weapon. The Death Star. Obviously they would have substantial forces in and around it, correct? Probably more troops were in the Death Star then most of the entire imperial fleet.
My original point was this:
A crew of a smuggler, a farm boy a Wookie, an old Jedi, and 2 droids were able to get in this thing. On purpose? No, but they still did. Then Obi-wan made his way to the main tractor beam core and shut it down, without anyone noticing him.
Now, don’t you think Yoda could make it onto Coruscant, where probably billions of ships enter and leave daily and then go to Palpatine’s palace and infiltrate it? As we’ve seen Yoda is far superior to Obi. So if Obi can get through the imperials greatest and most defended weapon completely unnoticed, im pretty sure a 2 foot tall Jedi with far greater force abilities could get into Palpatine’s “room” easily.
“Vader sensed Obi wan when he wasen't even on the ship yet”
Im a little confused as to what ship your talking about. But regardless Jedi have the ability to scramble their presence, like Luke did in ROTJ. That’s why Vader didn’t know exactly where he ws even though luke was like 10 feet from him. So Yoda could do the same had he needed too. As a matter of fact he probably did when he fought palps. Had he not then palpatine would not have been surprised to see Yoda in his office. He would have felt him coming.
Fact is, had Yoda really wanted to, he could get to Palpatine to have another fight. But he didn’t.
So Yoda's not sure if he is stronger or not, if he was as sure as you seem to be then he would have given it another shot. but he didn't.
I read it and its a good argument, but I don't think Yoda was afraid of losing to Sids if they fought again. I just think he thought I failed and I'm not getting any stronger so I will just bide my time and wait for the future to reveal itself. They are pretty equal but I consider Yoda just a little stronger during their fight (maybe just because I'm biased, but oh well)
Yup not reading that, but i'm sure it's full of misquoting me, and twisted logic. Full of "facts" that aren't facts, and somehow a dictionary definition to prove that failure means he admitted defeat. Who knows, who cares.
My thoughts on the whole thing are clear. Yoda and palps fought to an even draw, but Yoda over a longer duel would win because he is slightly stronger in force, and definitely stronger in saber fighting. In a rematch Yoda would probably kill palps, but a rematch is impossible because Palps has the entire empire protecting him, making sure that could never happen.
Can someone read that rediculous post up there by anomaly, and publish some cliff notes for it? 🙂
Originally posted by Apex512
I read it and its a good argument, but I don't think Yoda was afraid of losing to Sids if they fought again. I just think he thought I failed and I'm not getting any stronger so I will just bide my time and wait for the future to reveal itself. They are pretty equal but I consider Yoda just a little stronger during their fight (maybe just because I'm biased, but oh well)
Well everyone is a little bias, to be honest im bias the other way towards palpatine.
since he is my fav character.
I "like" to think that palps could beat Yoda, but to be honest its hard to say.
my point is that Yoda is not stronger. but palps is not necessarily stronger either.
the only thing, as i said, that we can induce from the fight is that since neither is dead, then they are equal in ability. but palps still won the battle.
but eventually he lost the war 😉
Originally posted by Vanquish
Yup not reading that, but i'm sure it's full of misquoting me, and twisted logic. Full of "facts" that aren't facts, and somehow a dictionary definition to prove that failure means he admitted defeat. Who knows, who cares.My thoughts on the whole thing are clear. Yoda and palps fought to an even draw, but Yoda over a longer duel would win because he is slightly stronger in force, and definitely stronger in saber fighting. In a rematch Yoda would probably kill palps, but a rematch is impossible because Palps has the entire empire protecting him, making sure that could never happen.
Can someone read that rediculous post up there by anomaly, and publish some cliff notes for it? 🙂
humm, well arnt you good at assuming things....
and here i go take the time to prove point by point why you are wrong.
oh well...
Ya sorry bout that. You did take some time to write all that and I guess I could at least take the time to read it, but come on man, it's a fuking novel, what do you expect? Plus, neither you or me will ever be convinced of the others point so it's really time to just agree to disagree.
Yoda all the way, even though the duel was a draw, I feel Yoda is slightly stronger in force and better with a saber. But that's just my opinion I suppose (backed up by everything we saw in the movie). Oh damn, i've gone and done it again... 🙂