Originally posted by KK the GreatCreating the world then which was later expanded to turn out to be a universe. You can't really take one without the other.
I didn't ask about "the belief of today's timeframe."I want God's feats from the Bible.
Featfish loves feats.
Gimme dem feats.
Plus he was also omnipotent.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Creating the world then which was later expanded to turn out to be a universe. You can't really take one without the other.
Sure you can.
It's a fictional world. It can be whatever the hell it wants to be.
Being that I don't recall the Bible ever retconning Genesis, that's the "universe" God created. It was a big flat square of land under a dome-like sky filled with small balls of light and one bigger ball of light.
Even all the way at the end of the book, when the world came to an end, those balls of light fell out of the sky and landed on the ground. I think that pretty soundly debunks your argument that the Bible ever retconned the nature of its universe.
Plus he was also omnipotent.
Sounds suspiciously like hyperbole.
I bet Storm fans would just throw similar soundbytes back at you.
"Here's a page where such-and-such calls Storm's power limitless."
Originally posted by KK the Great
Again, for the umpteenth time, your idea of "everything" and the Bible's idea of "everything" are two very different notions.The Bible's "everything" makes God planetary level.
Originally posted by KK the Great
I didn't ask about "the belief of today's timeframe."I want God's feats from the Bible.
Featfish loves feats.
Gimme dem feats.
Originally posted by darthgoober
How is creating Heaven a planetary level feat? How is creating the sun a planetary level feat for that matter?
"The heavens" in Genesis refers simply to the sky. And the sun was a small ball of light in the sky-dome.
At the end of the book, the sun falls onto the ground. Hardly Sol as you're no doubt thinking of it.
How about creation from NOTHING. No matter or energy to transmute, no extra-dimensional space to draw from, nothing. I think that you're overlooking the significance of being the source for all matter and energy in all of creation.
If you want to be pedantic, the Bible doesn't really specify that God created Earth out of nothing. It describes a formless wasteland and darkness covering a watery abyss. Then God steps in and introduces light as his first act. Then he begins separating the water into different locations and allowing land to rise, and so on. And it was good, as the fella says.
Originally posted by KK the Great
"The heavens" in Genesis refers simply to the sky..If you want to be pedantic, the Bible doesn't really specify that God created Earth out of nothing. It describes a formless wasteland and darkness covering a watery abyss. Then God steps in and introduces light as his first act. Then he begins separating the water into different locations and allowing land to rise, and so on. And it was good, as the fella says.
Gods creation as said in genesis is not planetary level... Shapping Earth, creating light in deep darkness out of nothing, livestock, creatures, bases of man...
Originally posted by Ambient
It really depends on your interpretetion upon reading Genesis..
If you're trying to make it work as some sort of true parable that is literal but also a metaphor so that your belief system doesn't seem absurd...then sure.
But looking at it purely as a work of literature with characters who can be judged like any other characters...then no, not really.
I fail to see the point of introducing God into this argument. Other than trying to make an invalid point or analogy.
First of all DM is a by product of the Universe and not it's starter or even the Earth's for that matter, so simply implying him as a biblical version of God is mute from the start. Next DM was shown to be fallible, nothing could effect or harm the biblical God.
As to what level feats God possessed. The common doctorate of most churches and most Christians isn't that the Bible is wrong or limited God. It is that our ability to comprehend God's feats is limited. Thus when humans wrote the bible it was from a limited understanding of it.
So if we only see the the sun, and the Earth then we know God created those. Now we come to find out that there are other planets. Well then God also created those and we simply didn't know he had created them before. Cause God created everything as stated in the bible.
As to your argument that we have to take it at face value, cause your trying to prove some point on DM's power level. Let me point out the major difference. As I told you before God isn't limited to the Bible in fact before the Bible was written God was told and passed down through Oral History. Even when the Old Testament was written, it was still added onto at a later time. God is will always be beyond the bible as a being, cause frankly unlike DM humans being still believe in him. Therefore God is constantly being adapted or in the case of believers is constantly revealing his nature to us.
If you want to put into terms you understand or in the context of this argument. God is the ultimate long term character with thousands of years of feats and history. Seriously if you are going to try and make a point like that religion is a terrible spot to cover. You'd have been better sticking with the Greek Gods or Norse Gods except most of them have a lot better feats than DM as well.
Now back to the actual topic on hand. The idea that DM was God of his universe. First off he couldn't be the biblical version of God cause he never created anything. Secondly he was a God in that he was the most powerful being that existed in his universe. Then again beings like Magneto or Sersi would also be considered Gods.
Unto a much bigger point that you overlooked while reading the book. It wasn't just about those humans thinking DM was their God. It was the idea of this godly being showing up and granting everyone hope. Because well when he first showed up everyone thought DM could do anything or could save everyone.
Slowly over time people in the comics start to lose that faith in him as the realization comes in that he can not stop the bad things from happening. Thus people come to understand that despite his power he is still fallible.
And there ya go DM wasn't God he was simply a powerful person existing in the Universe. So to claim that as the basis of him winning well, you wanna call us bad debaters. At least we are attempting to use actual evidence and not trying to use our self imposed titles on characters as the basis.
Until you understand that is what you are doing then I think perhaps you should be the one to not try and doggy paddle in the deep end of the pool with the big boys.
Surfer has more feats, Surfer has better feats.
Surfer, with time manipulation, has shown to be above certain limits that Dr. M has.
"But... but... he wuz a god!!" is a completely flawed argument. Moore wanted to demonstrate the great gap between the little people and those at Jon's power level... that doesn't mean that the same gap exists between Jon and Surfer.
Realistically, Norrin would receive the exact same treatment if you sub him into the book.
The only difference, is that Surfer's proven to be above, while Dr. M is all hypotheticals.
Originally posted by Newjak
I fail to see the point of introducing God into this argument.
Let's not blame me for your failures, then, eh?
Other than trying to make an invalid point or analogy.First of all DM is a by product of the Universe and not it's starter or even the Earth's for that matter, so simply implying him as a biblical version of God is mute from the start.
...he said, having missed the point entirely.
Next DM was shown to be fallible, nothing could effect or harm the biblical God.
And the Lord was with Judah; and He drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. (Judges 1:19)
At least it takes something as strange as tachions to interfere with Manhattan's omniscience. God Almighty becomes impotent in the presence of iron chariots.
As to what level feats God possessed. The common doctorate of most churches and most Christians isn't that the Bible is wrong or limited God. It is that our ability to comprehend God's feats is limited. Thus when humans wrote the bible it was from a limited understanding of it.
I didn't ask about what you believe.
Hell, is that all I need to do? Express a profound belief in Doctor Manhattan's powers?
Now back to the actual topic on hand. The idea that DM was God of his universe. First off he couldn't be the biblical version of God cause he never created anything.
He didn't create the Earth.
He did, however, say that he was going to create a new one, complete with his own race of man.
Unto a much bigger point that you overlooked while reading the book. It wasn't just about those humans thinking DM was their God. It was the idea of this godly being showing up and granting everyone hope. Because well when he first showed up everyone thought DM could do anything or could save everyone.Slowly over time people in the comics start to lose that faith in him as the realization comes in that he can not stop the bad things from happening. Thus people come to understand that despite his power he is still fallible.
Now you're making things up even worse than you did for the Bible.
The only reason anyone turned against him was because Ozymandias tricked people into thinking he was giving people cancer. It had nothing to do with "losing faith" or "realizing that his power was finite." Where did you get that crap?
And there ya go DM wasn't God he was simply a powerful person existing in the Universe. So to claim that as the basis of him winning well, you wanna call us bad debaters. At least we are attempting to use actual evidence and not trying to use our self imposed titles on characters as the basis.
...he said, immediately following a wildly hypocritical treatise on why feats don't matter and only his belief counts regarding the Biblical God.
That point really did sail completely over your head, didn't it?
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, I guess it all depends on whether Dr. Manhattan can get Silver Surfer into an arm lock.
The flipside to Surfer's long history.
Manhattan doesn't have "ZOMG TEH FEETS!" but, on the other hand, his low point everyone's been harping on was when an abundance of tachions muddied his vision of the future.
This compared to a character who has been beaten by having a brick thrown at his head.