First off, I have no idea why the Biblical GOD is being discussed here.
That was completely off-topic and retarded.
Second, Dr. M was GOD-LIKE, but NEVER was GOD.
He could create exact duplicates of himself with different thinking and emotion, control space and time,
And his greatest feat of all, create LIFE. Something the Biblical GOD could do, and SS could not.
But he lacked other characteristics that could distinguish him as a GOD, such as being OMNISCIENCE. And he was fallible.
But fallibility is always present in the world of comics.
We can't say SS is infallible.
Or Galactus is infallible (he's been beat more times than Rhino)
Or LT is infallible (there are beings stronger than him, such as Protege, Infinity Being, Heart of the Universe, etc)
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Is KK still insisting using feats in a debate is simple minded?
I know you guys have a difficult time accepting it, but I'm not talking out of my ass when I say that the way you debate here is almost identical to the way we debated back on the Wizard World forums in the late 90's-early 2000's.
In debating these same characters and topics for the better part of a decade, we've evolved well beyond the first baby-steps of debate that most of the people here seem to still be taking. It's not like I'm saying you guys are dumber than us or anything--you're just several years behind in the development of your debate style. We've simply gotten past the point where we can beat each other in debates merely by spamming scans of our favorite character's best feats.
And yes, I'll come right out and say that "Silver Surfer has better feats than Doc Manhattan" is an extraordinarily simple-minded way of looking at this topic, given the nature of the characters involved.
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
First off, I have no idea why the Biblical GOD is being discussed here.
That was completely off-topic and retarded.
I offered it as a simple example of an instance where people accept a character for how he was obviously intended to be taken without demanding a 1-to-1 comparison of feats.
Comparing feats, the Biblical God doesn't do much that the average matter-manipulating superhero couldn't do.
Comparing feats, Dr. Manhattan falls short of most superheroes who perform spectacular feats on a regular basis and have throughout decades of stories. But it is fairly obvious to me that Alan Moore intended for the character to be something more than that.
Second, Dr. M was GOD-LIKE, but NEVER was GOD.
He could create exact duplicates of himself with different thinking and emotion, control space and time,And his greatest feat of all, create LIFE. Something the Biblical GOD could do, and SS could not.
But he lacked other characteristics that could distinguish him as a GOD, such as being OMNISCIENCE. And he was fallible.
I would have said that omniscience was his most obvious trait. He knew everything that would happen at all points in time, and experienced all of it simultaneously. That's pretty damn omniscient.
Fallibility comes into play when we learn that an abundance of tachions can cloud his vision of the future, but God's omniscience isn't without flaw in the Bible, either. There are instances where he demonstrates curiosity or the need to physically investigate things (such as Sodom and Gomorrah).
Originally posted by KK the Great
I know you guys have a difficult time accepting it, but I'm not talking out of my ass when I say that the way you debate here is almost identical to the way we debated back on the Wizard World forums in the late 90's-early 2000's.In debating these same characters and topics for the better part of a decade, we've evolved well beyond the first baby-steps of debate that most of the people here seem to still be taking. It's not like I'm saying you guys are dumber than us or anything--you're just several years behind in the development of your debate style. We've simply gotten past the point where we can beat each other in debates merely by spamming scans of our favorite character's best feats.
And yes, I'll come right out and say that "Silver Surfer has better feats than Doc Manhattan" is an extraordinarily simple-minded way of looking at this topic, given the nature of the characters involved.
Oh, well then, bow down to you oh great debater from beyond. I had no idea we were in the presence of a guy who's been debating comics on the web for nearly a decade. Forgetting the fact that most the comic fans on here have been debating these topics since before internet comic book forums ever exsisted.
I humbly withdraw from this topic, my meager assessment that using feats is a good way to debate since that's the only tangible evidence we have to go by was clearly incorrect. You have set me straight.
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Oh, well then, bow down to you oh great debater from beyond. I had no idea we were in the presence of a guy who's been debating comics on the web for nearly a decade. Forgetting the fact that most the comic fans on here have been debating these topics since before internet comic book forums ever exsisted.I humbly withdraw from this topic, my meager assessment that using feats is a good way to debate since that's the only tangible evidence we have to go by was clearly incorrect. You have set me straight.
For the record, when I said that I wasn't necessarily calling you guys dumber than us, it didn't apply to everyone.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
lol "i can see the strings". he exists simltaneously in quantum time. he is AWARE of the future but unable to change it, or havent you been paying attention. he beleives in predetermination PRECICELY because his knowledge goes so far that he himself is aware of what HE is going to do in the future, becoming a prisoner of his own power. the tachyons make it harder for him to keep linked with other incarnations of himself in the future and the past, but it doesnt cut it altogether. also he can instantly teleport himself and other over galactis distance. infact HE doesnt even exist as a bosy, he constituted the body of his will, he has no actual physical or even energetic form at all, he is just existing with the universe. i wud easily put him at a godly{and NOT mythological skyfther type gods} level. surfer is nuthing to him. infact the entire actions of humanity past present and future seemed insignificant to him, hence his isolation and non reaction to events which seemed major on earth like the assasination of kennedy, which he knew wud happen but did nuthing to stop. also, his perfect clairvoyance wud give him complete knowledge of surfer and his powers.
Cool. So we know that he will be present when Surfer stomps a mudhole in his ass.
Originally posted by KK the GreatAre most of these posters from the old days on herochat now?
I know you guys have a difficult time accepting it, but I'm not talking out of my ass when I say that the way you debate here is almost identical to the way we debated back on the Wizard World forums in the late 90's-early 2000's.In debating these same characters and topics for the better part of a decade, we've evolved well beyond the first baby-steps of debate that most of the people here seem to still be taking. It's not like I'm saying you guys are dumber than us or anything--you're just several years behind in the development of your debate style. We've simply gotten past the point where we can beat each other in debates merely by spamming scans of our favorite character's best feats.
And yes, I'll come right out and say that "Silver Surfer has better feats than Doc Manhattan" is an extraordinarily simple-minded way of looking at this topic, given the nature of the characters involved.
Because the reason I post scans there is to prove when someone is lying or misconstruing the facts. I suspect that many icters are many of these wizard world posters you speak of.
Really though they arent as great as you think they are. By any means and imo many are lazy posters.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Are most of these posters from the old days on herochat now?Because the reason I post scans there is to prove when someone is lying or misconstruing the facts. I suspect that many icters are many of these wizard world posters you speak of.
Really though they arent as great as you think they are. By any means and imo many are lazy posters.
I've seen you debate, quanchi. Half of the time your evidence disproves your own argument.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Such as?
That Michael Myers video comes readily to mind.
Your intention was to demonstrate that Michael Myers has been shot in the torso without his arm falling off, thus "proving" that he would be immune to dismemberment via Hanzo sword.
That argument is absurd on the face of it, since arms don't tend to fall off as an effect of being shot in the torso, but your argument became even more of a farce with the addition of the video you posted.
You see, in the video, it can be clearly seen that the first gunshot went into Michael's chest and straight out through his back. It tore through his entire torso. This made your argument--that Michael's durability would be too much for the Bride to cut--even weaker than it was before you posted the video.
To be perfectly clear: In your attempt to demonstrate Michael's durability, you provided a video of a gunshot going completely through his torso.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Then it shouldnt be difficult for you to put them in their place in any one of these fine threads here.Show us how great you are kk.
But not by talking down to us simpleminded scanposters but by debating.
Originally posted by KK the Great
That's like tossing Michael Phelps in a pool with a bunch of people who can only doggy-paddle and getting angry that he tries to teach them real strokes rather than racing them in the doggy-paddle.
Originally posted by Boy Blue
I lol'd.
Originally posted by KK the Great
[b]( 9 ) Super-fast flight capabilities are not by any means indicative of bodily or muscular super-speed. Which isn't to say a character can't have both, but just because a given character may be able to fly at insane speeds, it does not automatically follow that their innate muscular speed is at anywhere near the same level. In many cases, it clearly is not. Even comic book characters don’t actually use their muscles to fly, after all; it's a separate power.( 10 ) It does not necessarily require super-speed to tag a being that has super-speed. Many a time, I’ve heard someone suggest that because character 'X' managed to hit character 'Y' (who has been known to demonstrate super-speed), that means that character 'X' must have moved at some degree of super-speed in order to do so. In most such cases though, the second character ('Y'😉 is someone like Superman, Gladiator, Hyperion, or the Silver Surfer… people who are not known to employ particularly high levels of speed during close-quarters combat all that often. Even in cases where character 'Y' is a full-time speedster like the Flash or Quicksilver, rule #8 still often comes into play to some extent.
( 11 ) Experience is very much overrated when it comes to gauging comparative skill levels. It is often argued that if character 'X' has been an active combatant for decades, centuries, or even millenia longer than character 'Y', that character 'X' must therefore be much more skillful. It's simply not true. There are examples where characters like Captain America and Superman have fought wars in other dimensions that spanned decades or centuries... and yet returned no more obviously skillful than they were previously. Characters in the higher strength classes also tend to come across as being significantly less skillful than the cream of the so-called 'street-level', irrespective of the difference in lifespan or active experience. That isn't to say experience is entirely meaningless, but after a certain point (probably less than an average human lifetime), most characters seemingly hit a plateau and pretty much stay there, regardless of how much longer they remain alive.
( 12 ) The more powers a character has, the less likely it is that they will exploit any of those powers to their full potential. Also, the greater the magnitude of a given power, the less likely it is that its full potential will ever be realised. Essentially, the less a character has to work with, the more they're likely to get out of it, proportionately speaking. Ties in to rule #6.
( 13 ) So-called 'flying bricks' -- especially those who regularly travel the stars -- are inherently likely to have more impressive power feats than Earthbound bricks. This is in large part due to the fact that it is much more difficult to have the Earth itself moved or significantly damaged, plot-wise, than some unnamed planet or moon way out in deep space. Also, the power of flight is usually requisite for moving planetary bodies anyway. Hence for those who cannot fly (or indeed those who rarely venture beyond the Earth's atmosphere), there is very little likelihood that they will ever move or lift anything bigger than an island -- not for a lack of raw musclepower necessarily, but because that is pretty much the heaviest distinct mass you will find sitting on the Earth's surface. This should be taken into account when comparing power feats between such characters.
( 14 ) Mind-control or possession is not cut-and-dried in comics. Sometimes mind-control/possession will hinder a characters performance; sometimes it will make little difference; and occasionally, it can actually enhance a characters performance (since they may use their powers more aggressively than they would normally). There is no hard and fast rule when it comes to mind-control, hence each instance should be weighed on a case by case basis.
( 15 ) This is an extension of rules #1 and #6. Even if a character consistently lifts objects thousands, millions, or billions of times heavier than another, that straight numerical difference will rarely be so apparent if they actually meet in combat. For example, those heroes who are broadly considered 'human-level' will often appear surprisingly close in strength to those who can heft cars or tanks, in situations where they actually come to blows. Likewise, those who max out with cars or tanks will often be able to hang with those who can lift mountains or cruise-liners. And those who max out with mountains or cruise-liners will often be able to hang with those who have moved whole planets, or even greater masses. Put simply, the theoretical gaps between the varying strength classes are often much reduced within the context of a fight.
( 16 ) Skill matters more than strength, in fights between low-level characters. Conversely, strength matters more than skill, in fights between high-level characters. This may be because approximate human-level fighters are considered genuinely more skillful than those with greater raw power at their disposal. Alternately, it may be because characters that have both high levels of power and theoretical skill need to be dumbed down in order to keep fights competitive (Thor, for example, has appeared more skillful without powers than he does normally). Either way, this rule does apply more often than not.
That should get you well on your way to learning how to apply the powers of reason to comic book analysis beyond the simplistic approach often used here. [/B]
Jesus Christ...Imagine typing this up....I'm not even going to be sarcastic or cruel...this is just....pathetic ermm