Darth Revan and Darth Malak vs. NJO Luke and Mace Windu

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
Revan would beat NJO Luke,ive read all your arguments but i have to say Luke dosent have enough combative ability in the Force to defeat Revan,he isent as good with a lightsaber either.
And in the qestion of Mace vs Malak,unless you dont know much about either character you would know Mace would win in every scenario because of one thing:Vapaad,any Dark Force attack,especialy lightning Malak would throw at Mace he could just throw it back and coupled with the fact Mace is actualy the better swordsman,Mace would obviously in in the end.

NOOB ALERT!!!!!!!!

MUST DESTROY!!!!!

evil_monkey

Well, lets see considering the fact that the creators of star wars and eu have said what complete bs vaapad is don't waste my time. second we have never seen mace deflect force energy if he could he would have done so in the fight with sidious, the creator of mace windu as a charachter completely denies that vaapad deflects the darkside or does anything to help agaisnt it, which leaves mace with his juyo which is known to be specifically weak against force powers so he would get pwned. and where do you get this mace is another swordsman buissness malak has killed hundreds of jedi with ease and defeated kavar who was the greatest guardian in the time of much better swordsmen then windu.

This next picture will say it all

bump a la cool ownage pic

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Well, lets see considering the fact that the creators of star wars and eu have said what complete bs vaapad is don't waste my time.

Where did they do that ?
Vaapad is Mace Windus personal completion of Juyo, adding a balance between dark side and light side emotions to be able to act in more aggressive ways (utilizing your darker feelings) and Mace unique Shatterpoint ability (find weakpoints and exploit them). So it's actualy much better compared to "basic" Juyo since Juyo itself is not a complete art of fighting.

second we have never seen mace deflect force energy if he could he would have done so in the fight with sidious, the creator of mace windu as a charachter completely denies that vaapad deflects the darkside or does anything to help agaisnt it, which leaves mace with his juyo which is known to be specifically weak against force powers so he would get pwned.

Vaapad doesn't deflect force energy but it's still better than Juyo and Juyo itself is not specifically weak against force powers. Where did you get that from ? Even the KotoR manual (not that I would count on that thing) says that Juyo is average vs force powers and still Juyo is not Mace Windus Vaapad.

and where do you get this mace is another swordsman buissness malak has killed hundreds of jedi with ease and defeated kavar who was the greatest guardian in the time of much better swordsmen then windu.

Mace did invent his own fighting style in the age of 13 practicing it for nearly 40 years. Yet Juyo (the basic form of Vaapad) requires form IV and form V mastery so Mace Windu (in ROTS) can be said to be:

- form IV master
- form V master
- form VII master
- Vaapad master
- a natural talent when it comes to lightsaber combat and force powers (since he was in the Council in an age of 28).
- a badass in duels because of his Shatterpoint ability

Since mastery of a lightsaber skill requires at least a decade of training you can say that Mace did nearly nothing else then develop his lightsaber skills for 5 decades of his life (his entire career as a Jedi) and he could kick the ass of every Jedi and Sith in the films with Yoda and Dooku as the only exception.

So while he might lose against Malak (and I doubt that) he would sure as hell not get "owned".

Jeez Nai, you have a way of twisting perspective like no other. So now Malak and Mace are what, near equal?

Oh yeah, and that "twisting perspective" thing. . . that was a compliment to your, uh, talent.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
Jeez Nai, you have a way of twisting perspective like no other. So now Malak and Mace are what, near equal?

When it comes to force powers I would say that Malak is stronger because he still is a dark side user. For lightsaber skills I would say Mace is the more advanced swordfighter because of his experience and his natural talent.

This is why I said that Mace would defeat Malak. Malak won't overwhelm Mace with force powers and Mace shatterpoint ability combined with his unique fighting style and lightsaber mastery would give him the edge in a duel.

I agree with Nai Fohl. I think NJO Luke and Darth Revan would be fighting for quite a while, and Mace would defeat Malak like he said after a bit, and help Luke kill Revan.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
When it comes to force powers I would say that Malak is stronger because he still is a dark side user. For lightsaber skills I would say Mace is the more advanced swordfighter because of his experience and his natural talent.

This is why I said that Mace would defeat Malak. Malak won't overwhelm Mace with force powers and Mace shatterpoint ability combined with his unique fighting style and lightsaber mastery would give him the edge in a duel.

How is Mace's experience fundamentally better than Malak's, though? I think Mace was older, sure... But in a time of peace, too. And considering we know next to nothing on Malak's actuallt style (though we know that he survived the Mandalorian Wars) you can't rightly say Mace is more advanced.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
How is Mace's experience fundamentally better than Malak's, though? I think Mace was older, sure... But in a time of peace, too. And considering we know next to nothing on Malak's actuallt style (though we know that he survived the Mandalorian Wars) you can't rightly say Mace is more advanced.

Well, Janus...

First: Mace is a natural talent when it comes to lightsaber combat. We know that since inventing your own fighting style in an age of 13 years even though he practiced with that weapon for 5 or 10 years that is very uncommon. In terms of "talent" Mace might be on one level with Tulak Hord. Natural gifted simply.

Second: We don't know anything about Malak's style. And we also don't know how much frontline experience he has from the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. We only know that he nearly killed Kavar and that he killed two Jedi. And we also know that Mace personaly destroyed the seismic tank on Dantooine, serveral hundrets of battle droids and super battle droids, he crushed Grievous and defeated Sidious quite easily. At least we know that Windu commanded a lot of actions against the CSS.

Third: Mace Windu was trained from infancy on with a lightsaber and had 5 decades of training with that weapon (including fights against Dooku and Yoda) while Malak was maybe trained from infancy on (do we know ?) and is in his late twenties or in his thirties (a time when Mace was already part of the Jedi Council).

So in terms of "experience" and lightsaber skill I rate Mace higher than Malak. And well...the only thing that would be equal or even better than Mace in a lightsaber duel would be:
a) Somebody with serveral centuries of practice (Yoda)
b) Tulak Hord himself or somebody who practiced Tulak's style for years (Revan maybe since he is a very fast learner)
c) A form II praticioner with more or equal amout of experience (Dooku)

And I don't see Malak fitting into any of these categories. 😉

Fair enough. Interesting way to look at it. I agree. Perhaps Mace can defeat Malak. But it won't be a walk in the chancellor's office, I assure you.

I love and hate the way he can do that do a guy. . .

what I meant about vaapad is that it doesn't give you an advantage over darkside users not that it doesn't exist.

In the kotor game it's said to be weak against either force users or multiple opponents (i might be mixing it up with attaru) and vaapad wouldn't help in that case, it has you concentrating on the saber fight and focused on that as well as being extremely aggressive which leaves you open to force based attacks especially in the heat of battle.

Malak fought during the madalorian wars on the FRONT lines now considering how much insanely superior mandalorians are to droids and considering he cut down thousands of them including in melee combat he can't be that bad. He also fought during the jedi civil war where he killed many jedi and republic solidiers.

Malak was trained a jedi knight from a normal age along with Revan hence the two getting along so well, he practiced until he was 25 then went and got real war experience which pwns training in a temple. As for how often from what I've seen it seems like he was in almost every battle the jedi were in.

Malak's style seems to be his own as well which he uses his long limbs to his advantage as well as speed he probably developped it out of necessity during the madalorian wars taking the best from forms 2 (melee) and three (blaster) as well as combining his natural advantages and agressiveness. Now remebering that he's about equally experienced and from what I've seen online as well as from kotor appears to have his own style. Now lets consider that Malak travelled everywhere with Revan and learned from him including powers from the tombs on korriban and malachor.

overall malk's force abilities own windu and neither has a clear advantage for saber skills.

Why does everyone consider Windu to be such a crappy Force-user? There're maybe three people in his time who could defeat him in a Force-duel, those being Yoda, Dooku, and Sidious. Now, in his time, maybe only Revan and Darth Traya were greater than Malak. I'm not disputiong the fact that Malak is superior in Force power, but I doubt that he could "own" Mace in a battle. I've always considered the two to be strangely similar. . .

they are saber wise, and i don't mean that windu is weak in the force he merely lacks knowledge because he concentrates more on saber fighting but malak has all the same sources revan did, maybe he didn't learn as much but he learnt extremely powerful offensive powers and many many things windu couldn't have hoped to. I don't beleive him to be weak but he's no where near malak in terms of force powers.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well, Janus...

First: Mace is a natural talent when it comes to lightsaber combat. We know that since inventing your own fighting style in an age of 13 years even though he practiced with that weapon for 5 or 10 years that is very uncommon. In terms of "talent" Mace might be on one level with Tulak Hord. Natural gifted simply.

Second: We don't know anything about Malak's style. And we also don't know how much frontline experience he has from the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. We only know that he nearly killed Kavar and that he killed two Jedi. And we also know that Mace personaly destroyed the seismic tank on Dantooine, serveral hundrets of battle droids and super battle droids, he crushed Grievous and defeated Sidious quite easily. At least we know that Windu commanded a lot of actions against the CSS.

Third: Mace Windu was trained from infancy on with a lightsaber and had 5 decades of training with that weapon (including fights against Dooku and Yoda) while Malak was maybe trained from infancy on (do we know ?) and is in his late twenties or in his thirties (a time when Mace was already part of the Jedi Council).

So in terms of "experience" and lightsaber skill I rate Mace higher than Malak. And well...the only thing that would be equal or even better than Mace in a lightsaber duel would be:
a) Somebody with serveral centuries of practice (Yoda)
b) Tulak Hord himself or somebody who practiced Tulak's style for years (Revan maybe since he is a very fast learner)
c) A form II praticioner with more or equal amout of experience (Dooku)

And I don't see Malak fitting into any of these categories. 😉

Well, one thing that gives Malak the advantage is his height. That's big. He's got like three or four inches on Mace, which automatically noosts his power with his swings.

And blowing up a seismic tank and battle driods won't help you against another equal, force and lightsaber user who has had more experience fighting other users. Mace has experience in war against inferior things, but he has nowhere the experience that Malak has fighting others equal or superior to themselves.

Originally posted by HimoKun
Well, one thing that gives Malak the advantage is his height. That's big. He's got like three or four inches on Mace, which automatically noosts his power with his swings.

And blowing up a seismic tank and battle driods won't help you against another equal, force and lightsaber user who has had more experience fighting other users. Mace has experience in war against inferior things, but he has nowhere the experience that Malak has fighting others equal or superior to themselves.

Yes, but you must remember when Malak fought Revan he also had the power of the Star Forge, though Revan did too whether he was dark or not. Certain locations are stronger with sides of the Force. Dark Jedi are much stronger on Korriban like Sion says, same goes for Malachor V. The Star Forge was a dark side emanation, and it increased Malak's power. Take the Star Forge out and Malak would be weaker, and so Mace could IMO beat him.

No, it's not one of my best arguments, but it is a small factor to consider.

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
what I meant about vaapad is that it doesn't give you an advantage over darkside users not that it doesn't exist.

There is an advantage that Vaapad users have over darksider users at least compared to other Jedi. It's not coming from the fighting style itself but from the state of mind the Vaapad user is in. A Jedi - because of his philosophy - will most likely don't fight in very aggressive or brutal ways. A Vaapad user channeling and using his darker emotions will be able to surprise a darksider because pretty much using their own "weapon" against them. That is a small advantage but that isn't the big point. The point for me is Mace Shatterpoint ability.

In the kotor game it's said to be weak against either force users or multiple opponents (i might be mixing it up with attaru) and vaapad wouldn't help in that case, it has you concentrating on the saber fight and focused on that as well as being extremely aggressive which leaves you open to force based attacks especially in the heat of battle.

You are mixing it up with Ataru.
Force based attacks WHILE fighting Mace with a lightsaber ? You would get your hand cut off while pointing it at him. It's quite senseless to compare Juyo to Vaapad. That are different forms. Juyo existed for what ? 4,000 years ? And Mace was the first one to complete that form with his Vaapad. Take a look at any source about lightsaber forms and it will say that Juyo is the hardest form to master but still easier to master (or "sub-master"😉 than Vaapad itself.

Malak fought during the madalorian wars on the FRONT lines now considering how much insanely superior mandalorians are to droids and considering he cut down thousands of them including in melee combat he can't be that bad. He also fought during the jedi civil war where he killed many jedi and republic solidiers.

Malak was trained a jedi knight from a normal age along with Revan hence the two getting along so well, he practiced until he was 25 then went and got real war experience which pwns training in a temple. As for how often from what I've seen it seems like he was in almost every battle the jedi were in.

Malak's style seems to be his own as well which he uses his long limbs to his advantage as well as speed he probably developped it out of necessity during the madalorian wars taking the best from forms 2 (melee) and three (blaster) as well as combining his natural advantages and agressiveness. Now remebering that he's about equally experienced and from what I've seen online as well as from kotor appears to have his own style. Now lets consider that Malak travelled everywhere with Revan and learned from him including powers from the tombs on korriban and malachor.

That is nothing but suggestions. We don't know how many people Malak fought (we only know he fought 2 Jedi + Kavar + Revan) so we can't judge about his "frontline" experience. We don't know from which age on he was trained (the Jedi in KotoR times were not trained from infancy on - that rule came with the Ruusan reformation 1,000 BBY).
And we don't know what style Malak used still if he uses his own it would be not very much developed since he didn't have much time to create and practice his "own" style.
And for force powers: How should he have learned everything that Revan learned. Revan was a incredible fast learner and Malak can be called lucky if he had archieved 10 % of Revans knowledge. He was good - but not good enough to "own" Mace with the force.

@HimoKun:

Well, one thing that gives Malak the advantage is his height. That's big. He's got like three or four inches on Mace, which automatically noosts his power with his swings.

Erm...only one word to say: "Yoda". Size doesn't matter in terms of lightsaber combat. You could also watch Luke vs Vader in ESB and ROTJ.

And blowing up a seismic tank and battle driods won't help you against another equal, force and lightsaber user who has had more experience fighting other users. Mace has experience in war against inferior things, but he has nowhere the experience that Malak has fighting others equal or superior to themselves.

At least we know that Mace fought:
- Dooku
- Yoda
- Asajj Ventress
- Sidious
+ Grievous and Jango Fett as non-force-users.

While Dooku and Yoda are on his level or slightly better than him in lightsaber combat he completely owned Ventress (who was able to capture post AotC Obi-Wan and nearly killed post AotC Anakin) and Sidious (who killed 3 Jedi Masters at least), Grievous (who also killed Jedi) and Jango (who has killed Jedi before) while the only really powerful force users Malak fought were Kavar and Revan. While Kavar still managed to escape, Revan killed Malak.

And sorry...I pretty much judge EVERY single Jedi and (normal) Sith appearing in the games FAR below Malak, Revan and all people you can see in the movies because they do nearly nothing when you fight against them.

Wait. So who wins?

I think Mace and Luke take that although only close.