Originally posted by newjak86
I don't know how
I wasn't referring to you. Have you seen those posts between GS and Synchro?
Anyway:
to multiquote do this,
Copy CTRL+C, and paste, CTRL+V
The "[QOUTE=xxxx]originally posted by xxxx ,
should be pasted before all of your opponents statements with no spaces.
The [B][Qoute}, should be pasted after each of your opponents statements. with one space after.
'
Copy and paste, its easy, and it lets you dissect arguments.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""I hate to tell you this Galactic Unicron is described as destroying everything everything including space time and was living without it in the Nothingness which is nothing. He has also gone to the Astral Plane which only Primus and Unicron have ever been mentioned as going to meaning this could very well be their White Hot room. It could very well be the Transformers version of the White Hot Room but there is no argueing about the fact that he destroyed everything the only reason this is a mute point to you is becasue you feel threathened now so your trying to dimenish Unicron's power but there is no deabting it he destroyed EVERYTHING IN HIS COMICS.
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NJ threatened? What are talking about son? Im sorry to inform you this but the astral plane is universal in comics and the real world as a plane which certain beings can travel to mentally, or mystically. Its somethging mutants can do in their sleep and has no relevance here im afraid. Im not debating that he destroyed everything NJ im just saying that destroying everything around you leaves you in nothingness, however you're still very much in creation, you havent automatically travelled to another plane of existence by doing that. Phoenix destroys creation all the time and then travels to the white hot room. Destroying creation does nothing to her powers otherwise as aforementioned her role would prove to be a problem. Wouldnt u agree?
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Yes he resurrected someone but it was nothing more than to show a point. That Unicron's powers aren't beyond the aspect of creating something himself and therefore his powers aren't just destruction. Also he has made ships seeminglessly out nothing meaning he can manipualte molecules which is how Phoenix in your words made Creation. Now he has never shown it on that scale but it is something he probably chooses not to do since he seems to hate creation and therefore why would he make one of his own.
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Thats just assumption im afraid and has no place here in a debate. You cant assume he has the power to create life based on the fact that he has showed matter manipulation. Silver Surfer can do the same its not impressive for someone you're trying to face off against phoenix. All my feats and powers are accountable for and can be used in this debate. As it stands phoenix wins in that respects. Unicron as far as we can see cant create life and doesnt have nearly as much power, range, or control in terms of energy and matter maipulation.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""As stated above it was Creation not a simple Universe. I says that he killed all the gods of this old creation so I'm pretty sure that people tried to oppse him and I bet that the Gods of the Old Creation were a lot like the abstracts of Marvel except that they were probably made bt Creation itself since Creation seems to be the all powerful being in Transformers except for Unicron of course. Wow his feat is seeming more and more impressive the more I right.
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There were a lot of seems and probablys in that which just isnt good enough in a debate. Unless you can provide some scans or quotes and relevant issue numbers then you cant make an argument based on speculation and patchy memories of comics you used to read in your childhood.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Um Unicron did destroy a Creation with cosmic beings GODS so it wasn't like he was unoppsed and he destroyed them all. He wasn't exausted fr a million years he was simply done with what he wanted to do so he slumbered. Oh Phoenix does it cyclically because she makes a new Unicron had no intention of making a new one.
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But i bet they werent on the scale of cosmic entities such as eternity and infinity and so on. He never had to face whole living universes singlehandedly. You cant really argue otherwise until you post some scans. Unicrons feat was a one off. Unicron had no intention of making a new one and as far as we know he couldnt even if he wanted to.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Yes but once again this is her manipulating something that is a part of her which isn't as impressive. So anything she does inside of Creation is worthless because she controls everything there. Still how would she fair trying to destroy or rearrange something she wasn't apart of. The Universe thing again he destroyed Creation my friend.
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You're misunderstanding everything NJ. Its a part of her in the sense that her essence permeates it because she made it. Its not like all the planets and so on are a part of her body. Her creating, destroying and manipulating any part of creation is no less impressive than another being doing the same. Either way its something she does over and over and over. Unicrons destroyed everything once. It really doesnt compare im afraid. As aforementioned Phoenixes power isnt dependent on creation, its creation that is dependent on Phoenix. She would be just fine destroying or manipulating in another universe. She has fared just well in other universes, she has after all been in crossovers with DC and Image and she was still portayed as an all powerful force of creation.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Say what you will Unicron has already devoured the same power that Phoenix uses to make everything. She manipulates matter Unicron eats it so to speak. So the power she wields is nothing to Unicron as he already faced those same powers and ate them.
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Incorrect. Unicron eating creation is not eating away at Phoenixes power source by eating creation. It is creation that is dependent on phoenix you've got it twisted im sorry to say. Its like saying the blob has munched through icemans ice structures, therefore he has eaten away at icemans ice powers, iceman makes ice blob eats it.Do you see how sily that is? It doesnt work like that NJ.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""You have no idea just how strong Unicron is and this is starting to annoy me my friend. You keep speaking in ways that try to place Unicron in a Marvel aspect but you can't do that Unicron isn't Marvel. You keep trying to place him in a religious setting while Transforemers only recently in the newer comics are doing that. Unicron in the orginal is nothing more than Idealistic setting of good vs Evil and Good was loosing until it found a way to trick Unicron. To place him in the Marvel Hiearchy isn't the way he is portrayed and doesn't do him justice he is an unstoppable force that destroys everything he wants time space molecules Gods nothing is beyond him. Phoneix is included as well and you trying to place her beyond Unicron is laughable. His feats aren'y compareable please everyone on here agrees that they are comparable everyone that is except you. You refuse to agree that they are and it is becomeing pathetic. Everyone agrees that the feats I have stated are just as powerful as Phoenix. All you have done is sit there and said over and over that what Phoenix what Phoenix is what this and that is PHOENIX and no one can touch her. While trying to place Unicron on a universal scale which has been proven fasle and that he is a creation destroyer. You also claim that the Phoenix can not be destroyed well once again that is only true inside of Creation. You say that her powers are unlimited well that is untrue she is only a part of TOAA therefore not all powerful her powers have limits since she isn't the Source only part of it meaning that she can be overpowered since she has a power limit. She can not be reborn outside of Creation since she exerts no power ouside of it and has a power limit that can be exceeded. The only way she can possibly win is by summoning all of her power and destroy herself realiseing an explosin of all her being which still has never completely destroyed Unicron so that probably won't work. On the other hand Unicron will simply devour the Phoenix until she is nothing. Don't tell me she can resurrect herslef. The only time this has ever happened is when a part of the Phoenix is destroyed inside of Creation which means that there is still more left of her bu this fight isn't in Creation this fight would be beyond creation where all of the Phonex can be destroyed just think about it even when she destroys Creation she leaves it and destroys it from the White Hot Room where she is in no harm so to me that means she can be destroyed.
YOU SIT HERE AND TALK ABOT HOW PHOENIX GETS NO CREDIT ON THIS BOARD AND THAT OTHER PEOPLE AREN'T WILLING TO EXCEPT HER POWER PERHAPS IT'S TIME TO PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH AND GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE. UNICRON CAN BEAT THE PHOENIX AND IS MORE LIKELY TO BEAT HER THEN THE PHONEIX IS UNICRON.
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NJ lets get this straight before we go any further. Im dismissing Unicron because he is unproven. You have posted no scans no quotes, given no issue numbers yet you expect people to blindly believe you. You've been on other threads you know it doesnt work like that. If you want people to believev you then support your argument with scans and so on. Unless you can then im sorry but you're claims remain unfounded and wont be taken on by people.
Im not the only person who disagrees with you. Both Creshock, CF and P Avatar have posted against you so i dont know why you've chosen to single me out.
If someone disagrees with you or doesnt see in your favourite character what you do then dont get upset about, prove them wrong. Thats the adult way to do things on this forum. There was a time everyone thought Galactus could beat Phoenix and i proved them wrong through effort and scans. I currently have no problem with you but its not nice to get annoyed with me and address me in capital letters just because i dont agree with you. Im assumming you're an adult so lets converse in a manner that befits us. Ok?
As it stands eating away at a multiverse isnt proof that Unicron can beat Phoenix it really isnt. Not when Phoenix destroys a multiverse cyclically and then goes on to create it again and and supports all life in the multiverse. Creation is dependent on Phoenix not the other way around. Phoenix exists beyond creation, Phoenix has been in crossovers and is still portrayed the same. Unicron has displayed energy and matter manipulation as high tier and high range as phoenix. Its those skills that win battles im afraid. Theres just not enough proof that Unicron could win therefore its understandable that i and many others conclude that until you can provide more proof or until a new comic comes out, then phoenix from her feats and showings is beyond Unicron.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
[B]Beyonder you're lame. That is sexual reproduction. Slight difference. 😮 Sorry to tell you this but we're talking about creating life from scratch through energy and matter. 😮
And you think this would put PF over Unicron? It takes energy to create, it takes energy to destroy. So PF can create life from scratch through energy and matter, Unicron can destroy life and turn it into scratch through energy.
At present A.I systems arent capable of the full range of thought processes and emotions and bodily functions that we have are they.
So that make life better than techs? Heck, humans can't operate or store as much memory as a robot can. Humans forget, robots don't - it's in the memory chip. Robots can move faster, are more precise, and are stronger. So who's better now?
Whats the robot equivalent of a metabolism, respiration system, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.
So? Ever heard of Nimrod, Ultron, Cyborg Superman, Optimus Prime, Amazo, Bastion, Korvac, Master Mold, Machine Man, etc.?
Having metabolism, respiration system, growth, reproduction, etc. makes life better than techs or techno-organic? It doesn't.
There are equivalents to some of those things but not to all of those things. We know for example phoenix can create human bodys, with human thought processes, we know it can create abstracts which can embody themselves, but what can Unicron do in those areas? Make robots?
So what if Phoenix can create human bodies? Your acting as if organic life is better than articificial life.
So Phoenix can create human bodies. Unicron can destroy it. Phoenix ain't more powerful cause she can create life.
Originally posted by Beyonder
And you think this would put PF over Unicron? It takes energy to create, it takes energy to destroy. So PF can create life from scratch through energy and matter, Unicron can destroy life and turn it into scratch through energy.So that make life better than techs? Heck, humans can't operate or store as much memory as a robot can. Humans forget, robots don't - it's in the memory chip. Robots can move faster, are more precise, and are stronger. So who's better now?
So? Ever heard of Nimrod, Ultron, Cyborg Superman, Optimus Prime, Amazo, Bastion, Korvac, Master Mold, Machine Man, etc.?
Having metabolism, respiration system, growth, reproduction, etc. makes life better than techs or techno-organic? It doesn't.
So what if Phoenix can create human bodies? Your acting as if organic life is better than articificial life.
So Phoenix can create human bodies. Unicron can destroy it. Phoenix ain't more powerful cause she can create life.
Beyonder you can continue to chase me around o phoenix threads as i will continue to thoroughly enjoy putting you down at every turn.
If you actually read the thread Bebe you'll know that creating life is just one of the points that places phoenix above Unicron. It is not the crux of my argument. Whatever your stance on this argument it cant be argued that creating humanoid life is more advanced than creating robots. You're losing focus on the argument Bebe. The point of this whole life thing was to show the kind of high level life forms phoenix is able to create. High level stuff like that is only a capability of cosmics of the highest order.
Creating a multiverse telekinetically requires a far higher level of energy and matter manipulation than blowing up and eating one. Thats mere absorption. Its high level refined capabilities like that which win battles and im afraid Unicron has never shown such skills therefore it cant be assumed that he has them.
Once again you presume to much Galactic it is the only Marvel that will tell that cosmics can create life. Once again using those principles on Unicron is taking away from him. In transformers Creation created itself and Unicron was overpowering it. Creation is sentient and made a guardian giving Primus all it's power the very power of Creation and Primus was still loosing. Also Guess what Primus had all the power of Creation creation was a part of him to just like Phoenix though he wasn't just some lackey he was Creation. You also know that Primus could destroy Creation as well that's what was happening in Unicron and his fight. So Primus is almost a clone of Phoenix in terms of the power they had. Primus is also the one who created the transformers and gave them life and Unicron was beating him. Unicron is a devour but has shown matter manipulation as well face Phoenix Unicron is in Phoenix's league. Unicron is the devourer of everything nothing is beyond him he is chaos and destruction always eating always growing stronger never satisfied until all is gone.
Originally posted by newjak86
Once again you presume to much Galactic it is the only Marvel that will tell that cosmics can create life. Once again using those principles on Unicron is taking away from him. In transformers Creation created itself and Unicron was overpowering it. Creation is sentient and made a guardian giving Primus all it's power the very power of Creation and Primus was still loosing. Also Guess what Primus had all the power of Creation creation was a part of him to just like Phoenix though he wasn't just some lackey he was Creation. You also know that Primus could destroy Creation as well that's what was happening in Unicron and his fight. So Primus is almost a clone of Phoenix in terms of the power they had. Primus is also the one who created the transformers and gave them life and Unicron was beating him. Unicron is a devour but has shown matter manipulation as well face Phoenix Unicron is in Phoenix's league. Unicron is the devourer of everything nothing is beyond him he is chaos and destruction always eating always growing stronger never satisfied until all is gone.
Your story is vey different to what im hearing. Does someone want to post a scan that shows that unicron devoured a multiverse? Because i cant really argue until i know that what you're saying is actually the truth.
Ive been reading many comic book bios and it seems that Unicron destroyed just a universe. Im sorry but thats what is said in all of them. Unicron was a planet eater that increased his power to monstrous proprtions by consuming the entire universe around him. The little fragment of the universe that was left formed Primus.
For a start until you can actually prove to me through a scan that Unicron consumed a multiverse despite the comic bios all stating it was just a universe, then you cant really argue that he's on phoenixes level merely because he consumed a universe. Thats impressive but nowhere near the scale required to make him a decent opponent.
Primus is not the equivalent of Phoenix im afraid NJ thats your assumption and from what i can see its very wrong. Phoenix is the alpha and omega of the multiverse. She is existences beginning and its end in the natural scheme of things. Primus isnt a primal force of existence he was not there from before creation was made he is just an after effect. Primus is far from phoenix. Primus energies dont sustain all of creation he is just a guardian of the universe imbued with power after being formed from the sentient universes core.
From all of the evidence ive seen Unicrons consumed merely a universe, The universe which was left made primus out of its sentient core and it is this which fought Unicron. All impressive stuff but im sorry unicron is not on Phoenixes level. A match for eternity? Yeah definitely but not for phoenix.
Primus only reformed the universe around him while Unicron slept but the Transformers ""Time Wars"" story arc featres alternate realities which shows you that Unicron never consumed a multiverse. If he did then they wouldnt exist.
Well once again using Marvel concepts on Unicron I see. Well pretty much guess what Galactic the UNIVERSE in the Transformers world means everything besides it very well could be bigger than the Marvel Multiverse since it is pretty much limitless me thinks.
Anyway you want proof very well if you want it so bad then go get it. You see my collection of transformer comics are gone since it was made in the mid 40s so for scans I can't help you maybe someone with them can give us the scans. Anyway if you want to read the original stories let me give you a start. Look in the Marvel Transformer Generation 1 or 2 comics. I believe that the idea of Unicron came around in the issues #75-80 in the Gen1 but it could have started earlier than that or could have started in the Gen2 comics. Also don't go by the UK versions go by the USA one. That is the Unicron I'm debating not the UK. Now I think that the writter who did the Unicron version in the USA also did it for the one in the UK so be careful with that.
If you say but it is your job to bring the evidence guess what we already did AV said he looked at the original comics and what i said was true so I think that's all I need. Plus every other one that has come on here with the exception of Beyonder who has talked about Unicron has given you the same stories and such. So I feel if you want to get all Proof wanting we have done the proof giving but now if you want to have the in text stuff you want then You can go look for it. I don't have the time plus I have given plenty of proof also ask AV if he can give scans.
No NJ im not usin marvel terms. Im using terms and concepts universal to comics. Also the Unicron you're debating is from a marvel published title as well im afraid. You cant dismiss theses terms just because they dont favour your character. It doesnt work like that im afraid. You cant change it up now NJ you said from the beginning that you were debating the U.K one. We have been talking about Unicron as he was in the Marvel published title of 1986. There will be no changes. NJ i know you're new to these forums so you're excused but sufficient evidence isnt hearsay. Avvy saying this and that just isnt good enough. I really want to believe you but until you post some scans then its just not good enough. According to the comics bios Unicron ate a universe, in the same comic series a story arc called time wars featured characters from other realities. This tells you that Unicron never consumed the multiverse and it also tells you that a multiverse exists in Transformer comics in the first place. Unicron eating a universe is very impressive he's beyond Galactus and at least on par with Eternity (but probably greater due to him having consumed a universe) however Unicron is simply no match for Phoenix based on this information. Phoenix made the multiverse, she maintains it with her energies and then destroys it. Phoenix posesses telekinetic godhood. Power over all matter, time/space reality down to the molecular level. Unicron destroyed a universe. Theres no comparison im afraid. Good match.
You think you are using concepts universal to comics but all it takes is one that doesn't follow it(Transformers) and then that point becomes invalid since then you are subjecting a character to a concept outside of what they do normally. From what I remember is that Universe in Transformers is just that everything you might be talking about time travelers that has been proven but they are always apart of the same Universe. Now as for the Marvel thing. It was published by Marvel but since Hasbro held the rights to transformers it was never placed in with mainstream Marvel and was given different concepts outside of Marvel so it has no bearing on this arguement like let's say a Galactus vs Phoneix thread. Now I have always been deabting the USA version which is more powerful than the UK version. Like I said I would be using the the original transformers comics from 1984 which are the USA comics Gen 1 and 2. Now from my knowledge Unicron was thought up in UK versions but moved to USA comics where he was made more powerful and given the title devourer of everything and was describede as destroying Creation.
I told you to talk to avvvy because he said he saw the OG tranformers issues and that what i said is true. Also that he could provide you the issue #s and Scans you wanted. Other than that the best i could give you is the the Generation and version to look for.
Originally posted by newjak86
You think you are using concepts universal to comics but all it takes is one that doesn't follow it(Transformers) and then that point becomes invalid since then you are subjecting a character to a concept outside of what they do normally. From what I remember is that Universe in Transformers is just that everything you might be talking about time travelers that has been proven but they are always apart of the same Universe. Now as for the Marvel thing. It was published by Marvel but since Hasbro held the rights to transformers it was never placed in with mainstream Marvel and was given different concepts outside of Marvel so it has no bearing on this arguement like let's say a Galactus vs Phoneix thread. Now I have always been deabting the USA version which is more powerful than the UK version. Like I said I would be using the the original transformers comics from 1984 which are the USA comics Gen 1 and 2. Now from my knowledge Unicron was thought up in UK versions but moved to USA comics where he was made more powerful and given the title devourer of everything and was describede as destroying Creation.
I told you to talk to avvvy because he said he saw the OG tranformers issues and that what i said is true. Also that he could provide you the issue #s and Scans you wanted. Other than that the best i could give you is the the Generation and version to look for.
Avvy telling me something isnt sufficient evidence im afraid. Its not how it works on theses forums. I t never has. You need scans really. All of the dozen or so comic book bios i have read on Unicron tell of how he destroyed a universe. How he was a planet eater that consumed it all to satiate his hunger and when his hunger was satisfied he slept. Only a universe does not equal a multiverse im afraid. The fact that the Time Wars story arc features character sfrom alternate realities tells you that a multiverse does indeed exist in transformers. Unicron is impressive im not denying that , but a universe eater is not on the same level as phoenix im afraid and thats the crux of the matter.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Avvy telling me something isnt sufficient evidence im afraid. Its not how it works on theses forums. I t never has. You need scans really. All of the dozen or so comic book bios i have read on Unicron tell of how he destroyed a universe. How he was a planet eater that consumed it all to satiate his hunger and when his hunger was satisfied he slept. Only a universe does not equal a multiverse im afraid. The fact that the Time Wars story arc features character sfrom alternate realities tells you that a multiverse does indeed exist in transformers. Unicron is impressive im not denying that , but a universe eater is not on the same level as phoenix im afraid and thats the crux of the matter.
I don't think he comprehends what a "multiverse" is in marvel terms.
In at least one reality Wolverine is lord of the vampires. . in countless others the fantastic four didn't get the powers they got. . they got others or no powers. .
There are things that happened in different ealities that did not happen in the mainstream . . Marvel Universe 616.
Now all these different Marvel Universes compose the Marvel Multiverse.
Which bios are you looking at there are like ten different Unicrons. Also Unicron is the devourer of everything meaning everything in the OG transformers. Time wars had people from different times not different universes just different times. All of which Unicron shows influence in without time traveling. He basically just is in all these different places at once for some reason don't ask me why that's how they did him. But once again I told you about Avvy becasue when he was saying i was right he said he looked at the OG comics meaning he could give you the scans and specicfic issue numbers you want.
Originally posted by Creshosk
I don't think he comprehends what a "multiverse" is in marvel terms.In at least one reality Wolverine is lord of the vampires. . in countless others the fantastic four didn't get the powers they got. . they got others or no powers. .
There are things that happened in different ealities that did not happen in the mainstream . . Marvel Universe 616.
Now all these different Marvel Universes compose the Marvel Multiverse.
Originally posted by newjak86
Which bios are you looking at there are like ten different Unicrons. Also Unicron is the devourer of everything meaning everything in the OG transformers. Time wars had people from different times not different universes just different times. All of which Unicron shows influence in without time traveling. He basically just is in all these different places at once for some reason don't ask me why that's how they did him. But once again I told you about Avvy becasue when he was saying i was right he said he looked at the OG comics meaning he could give you the scans and specicfic issue numbers you want.
Well until he does provide the scans, a universe eater is no comparison im sorry to inform you.
Originally posted by Creshosk
I don't think he comprehends what a "multiverse" is in marvel terms.In at least one reality Wolverine is lord of the vampires. . in countless others the fantastic four didn't get the powers they got. . they got others or no powers. .
There are things that happened in different ealities that did not happen in the mainstream . . Marvel Universe 616.
Now all these different Marvel Universes compose the Marvel Multiverse.
In the comic unicron looked through several different realities and simply plucked galvatron out from one of them. Different realities are nothing to uni.